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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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BR 45111

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With ref to 142005 I have quite a good network of friends in South Yorkshire and not much escapes there attention, they haven’t reported 142005 arriving at Booths . It hasn’t been reported on WNXX which covered its withdrawal.
 
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Killingworth

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With ref to 142005 I have quite a good network of friends in South Yorkshire and not much escapes there attention, they haven’t reported 142005 arriving at Booths . It hasn’t been reported on WNXX which covered its withdrawal.

Being saved for possible preservation?
 

M60lad

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I have it on good authroity that 142005 is still stabled at Newton Heath Depot as I saw it myself this afternoon when I was on the Tram on my way to work, it was stabled just outside one of the main sheds so it obviously gets moved around on occasion. Its still got its retirement day vinyls on it aswell.
 

simon7929

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Most of the warm stored units have been used on local services in the North East over the last two weeks. However number 66 doesn't seemed to have left Heaton depot. Possibly the next one to be officially withdrawn?
 

Karl

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I can't believe I'm confessing this but I'm actually missing the buggers on my Bamber Bridge to Preston rides! I've not had a Pacer for weeks. It's all 156s on the Colne to Preston route now.
 

Kite159

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I can't believe I'm confessing this but I'm actually missing the buggers on my Bamber Bridge to Preston rides! I've not had a Pacer for weeks. It's all 156s on the Colne to Preston route now.

I'm surprised with that as I was picturing the Colne, Blackpool South, Ormskirk services would likely be 150s
 

433N

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I can't believe I'm confessing this but I'm actually missing the buggers on my Bamber Bridge to Preston rides! I've not had a Pacer for weeks. It's all 156s on the Colne to Preston route now.

On a technicality, I did see a Pacer on the 18:57 Preston - Colne on 10/9 ... but every other service was a 156.

I was surprised too that it wasn't 150s - but I also expected it would be one of the last routes to lose Pacers.
 
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Seems to be a mix of 150s/156s now. A pacer rocks up every now and again, as I witnessed at Nelson this morning walking to work (don’t know which one it was though).

Had 156441/156421 here yesterday too.

I just wish 142032 would turn up...its my last pacer!
 

Karl

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I first fell in love with them on a holiday to Exemouth when the Skippers were first released. I took my newly born daughter on one. She's 35 now and still ribs me for terrifying her!!!
 

Llama

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Worth noting that there are anticipated shortages of of 14x wheelsets this autumn due to stocks being depleted as withdrawals were meant to be more advanced than they are, expect it to be as bad or worse than last year.
It doesn't help this issue that significant numbers of newer drivers are overusing the sanding equipment or using it inappropriately due to poor training, this causes worse wheelflats than using sand diligently and only when necessary.
 

Aivilo

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Worth noting that there are anticipated shortages of of 14x wheelsets this autumn due to stocks being depleted as withdrawals were meant to be more advanced than they are, expect it to be as bad or worse than last year.
It doesn't help this issue that significant numbers of newer drivers are overusing the sanding equipment or using it inappropriately due to poor training, this causes worse wheelflats than using sand diligently and only when necessary.

They seemed to come out of hiding last week on the Cheshire lines. Pretty sure we even had a set working Liverpool mid week
 

D.K.TAYLOR

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On a technicality, I did see a Pacer on the 18:57 Preston - Colne on 10/9 ... but every other service was a 156.

I was surprised too that it wasn't 150s - but I also expected it would be one of the last routes to lose Pacers.
I had 142094 yesterday about 13-5?? Of Kirkham & Wesham on a Colne to Preston
 

driver_m

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Worth noting that there are anticipated shortages of of 14x wheelsets this autumn due to stocks being depleted as withdrawals were meant to be more advanced than they are, expect it to be as bad or worse than last year.
It doesn't help this issue that significant numbers of newer drivers are overusing the sanding equipment or using it inappropriately due to poor training, this causes worse wheelflats than using sand diligently and only when necessary.

Goven the lightness of a 142, maybe they should have fitted larger sandboxes to counter the ‘overuse’. I personally think that’s dangerous terminology, a driver should never feel in doubt over whether to use a piece of vital safety equipment, and I certainly hope that is not conveyed by your bosses to these drivers.
 

Llama

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Drivers, mostly newer drivers who have never driven 142s without sanders, do have a tendency to put sand down when there is no real need whilst braking. Of course if you have serious doubts that you are in control of the train then the sanders are there to be used but I am talking about drivers reaching for the sand button as soon as the slightest twitch is felt.

It was raised not long after the sanders were fitted to Northern's tread braked fleet in 2012 that overuse of the sanders can cause excessive wheelwear, for example putting sand down in front of a sliding, locked-up wheelset will cause larger wheelflats because of the increase in friction. 14x units are particularly prone to this issue because they are more prone to picking their wheels up in the first place, their sanders deliver sand in front of the leading wheelset rather than the third axle as per most other stock, and although lightweight their axle weight is still relatively high for a multiple unit at 12+ tonnes.

We have had significantly worse low adhesion seasons in years gone by without the effect on 142 wheelset damage/unit availability, but they were pretty much all before the Pacers were fitted with sanders. In those years there was nothing like the chaos of last year where dozens of units were out of service awaiting a trip to the wheel lathe.
 

fowler9

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They seemed to come out of hiding last week on the Cheshire lines. Pretty sure we even had a set working Liverpool mid week
There was a pair of 142's on a peak hour Manchester Airport to Lime Street service last week. It was absolutely rammed.
 

Eccles1983

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Drivers, mostly newer drivers who have never driven 142s without sanders, do have a tendency to put sand down when there is no real need whilst braking. Of course if you have serious doubts that you are in control of the train then the sanders are there to be used but I am talking about drivers reaching for the sand button as soon as the slightest twitch is felt.

It was raised not long after the sanders were fitted to Northern's tread braked fleet in 2012 that overuse of the sanders can cause excessive wheelwear, for example putting sand down in front of a sliding, locked-up wheelset will cause larger wheelflats because of the increase in friction. 14x units are particularly prone to this issue because they are more prone to picking their wheels up in the first place, their sanders deliver sand in front of the leading wheelset rather than the third axle as per most other stock, and although lightweight their axle weight is still relatively high for a multiple unit at 12+ tonnes.

We have had significantly worse low adhesion seasons in years gone by without the effect on 142 wheelset damage/unit availability, but they were pretty much all before the Pacers were fitted with sanders. In those years there was nothing like the chaos of last year where dozens of units were out of service awaiting a trip to the wheel lathe.


The counter arguement to this is very simple.

Applying sand early in the slide process can and does in cases free the rotation of the wheel earlier meaning that heat is less likely to build up and tyre damage reduced.

Instead of just allowing the wheels to slide along without interruption which will cause flats early, frequent and controlled application is preferable to just allowing the process to run its course.

It's not as simple as you make it. A lot of problems have arisen from the harsh boot of otdr reviews and drivers feeling under suspicion. The PDP and drivers throwing the brakes into emergency earlier is a contributing factor as well.
 

Llama

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When conditions are really bad, a wheelslide often puts very minor flats on a wheelset, sometimes even imperceptible or no flats if the friction coefficient between wheel and rail is so low. If you add an abrasive friction material to the contact patch where a wheel is already sliding, the only possible outcome is that any potential wheelflat will be made worse. The amount of heat generated at the point where a locked wheel slides along the railhead is related to the amount of friction available (ergo contamination of railhead and/or wheel tread). Sanders on these units, which lack WSP and have very simple direct action clasp brakes, are not designed to help a wheelset regain rotation if it locks up while tread brakes are applied; the sanders are far more effective when the wheel is rotating and the sand is crushed in the nip-point of the rotating wheel.

There are reasons why most traction units have sand delivery at their leading end at no further forward than the third axle from the leading end of the leading vehicle - wrong side track circuit failure mitigation being the main one. A side-effect of that setup is that the leading wheelsets before the sander will condition the railhead slightly for following wheelsets, if those leading wheelsets slide or 'slow-up' under braking. If those leading wheelsets slow-up or lock with sand between the contact patch and the rail then wheeltread damage is inevitably worse. Given that the leading wheelset is usually more likely to be the one which locks up on a short traction unit such as a 142, it's not surprising they are having issues since sanders were fitted.

142s (and 143s/144s) and 153s had too few axles to meet the group standards for sander fitment and a lot of trials were undertaken and hoops jumped through to eventually get sanders fitted to them. The only practicable location for sand delivery on these units is prior to the leading wheelset.

GMRT2461 (issue 3) is worth reading, as are the different research papers referred to within it.
 
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Bertie the bus

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With a little over 3 months left of the year, and an impressive 1 Pacer withdrawn, it is time to start thinking about how many Northern 142s will be keeping the already confirmed 144s company in service next year.

I'll start the bidding at between 35 and 50, or if pressed for a specific number I'll go for 40.
 

Chester1

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With a little over 3 months left of the year, and an impressive 1 Pacer withdrawn, it is time to start thinking about how many Northern 142s will be keeping the already confirmed 144s company in service next year.

I'll start the bidding at between 35 and 50, or if pressed for a specific number I'll go for 40.

I thought that 6 have been withdrawn so far?
 

YorksDMU

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I thought the others were only in warm storage. But I too am now concerned about the lack of progress in getting anymore Pacers withdrawn. Too many teething problems with the 195’s is maybe one problem holding the withdrawals up....slow refurbishment of Sprinters maybe another problem.
 

Paul_10

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Well I think I read somewhere in here there is going to be major changes in the middle of next month regarding 195s going on routes which will in particular displace 158s then another cascade of the other sprinters going on routes which are pacer dominated which will allow for quite a large withdrawal? As ever time will tell, no idea if it's realistic to withdraw so many units within a short timeframe or not?
 

Ken H

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Saw pacers at Leeds yesterday. a pair of 142's going to Knottingley, and a 144 moving too.
About 1730
I got an electric to Ilkley </smug>
 

Chester1

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Well I think I read somewhere in here there is going to be major changes in the middle of next month regarding 195s going on routes which will in particular displace 158s then another cascade of the other sprinters going on routes which are pacer dominated which will allow for quite a large withdrawal? As ever time will tell, no idea if it's realistic to withdraw so many units within a short timeframe or not?

It does appear that Northern will have about new 40 units (out of 61) in service for the PRM deadline. I think they are more likely to continue to store 142s than dispose of them as a contingency for another bad autumn.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It does appear that Northern will have about new 40 units (out of 61) in service for the PRM deadline. I think they are more likely to continue to store 142s than dispose of them as a contingency for another bad autumn.
I think that was hinted at by a member with credible sources. Makes sense given the annual carnage that leaf-fall wreaks on DMU wheelsets.
 

Ryry

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Have any more pacers been stored or withdrawn the saltburn to bishop line today has at least 3 class 156s on and not as many pacers as usual
 

433N

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Have any more pacers been stored or withdrawn the saltburn to bishop line today has at least 3 class 156s on and not as many pacers as usual

I think you are just being lucky / unlucky. Last Monday, there were 4 x 142, 1 x 156 on the Saltburn - Darlo/Bishes and a 142 parked up in Middlesbrough sidings for the day. There was also a 142 on one of the Nunthorpe-Hexhams.
 

3270

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Warm stored 142021 is having a day out today.
0600 Newcastle-Nunthorpe
0820 Nunthorpse-Hexham
1056 Hexham-Danby
1350 Danby-Hexham
1654 Hexham-Nunthorpe
1920 Nunthorpe-Metrocentre
2121 Metrocentre-Morpeth
2211 Morpeth-Hexham
2325 Hexham-Newcastle
then empty to Heaton.
 

simon7929

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They do get a run out now and then. Saw 21 at Middlesbrough this morning around 0730. Number 66 has not run since it was stored some weeks ago. And 46 seems to be back out in circulation. Spotted at Doncaster last week.
 

simon7929

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It does seem like there are a few 156s on the Saltburn/Darlington/Bishop circuit today. I saw only number 142070 on the route. However there was a spare 142 in the sidings at Middlesbrough.
 
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