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Gatwick Airport to London fares confusion

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AlbertBeale

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Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...purpose-any-future-plans.187081/#post-4127404

Thanks for the info.

Good news, it’s currently a bit of a mess and can be a thoroughly miserable experience when they make last minute platform changes with the lack of lifts!

The most miserable part is for visitors arriving who can't just get "a ticket to London" but have got to make sense of rival ticket sellers for different companies/trains. Oh for an integrated railway again...
 
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Hadders

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The most miserable part is for visitors arriving who can't just get "a ticket to London" but have got to make sense of rival ticket sellers for different companies/trains. Oh for an integrated railway again...

Even in British Rail days you couldn't do this as the Gatwick Express cost more.
 

Colin1501

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Even in British Rail days you couldn't do this as the Gatwick Express cost more.
It didn't cost more in its early days, only in the later run-up to privatisation. And when it was the same price as all other services, the departure screens showed all other Victoria-bound services as terminating at Clapham Junction, thus directing Victoria passengers to the Gatwick Express and taking pressure off other services.
 

yorkie

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The most miserable part is for visitors arriving who can't just get "a ticket to London" but have got to make sense of rival ticket sellers for different companies/trains. Oh for an integrated railway again...
There is one fully integrated franchise operating on the route between Gatwick and London. There is no competition between different companies on this route. The prices are all set by Govia Thameslink, in conjunction with the Department for Transport.
 

JonathanH

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There is one fully integrated franchise operating on the route between Gatwick and London. There is no competition between different companies on this route. The prices are all set by Govia Thameslink, in conjunction with the Department for Transport.

And the cheapest prices would be higher if there was only one fare so it is best left as it is.

If you go somewhere unfamiliar, you research the prices of trains and other transport between the airport and where you are going.

Gatwick is not the only place in the world where there are different fares depending on the choice of travel option. It might be one of the places where there is the least difference between the rail travel options.
 

Hadders

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These days not every London bound train from Gatwick goes to Victoria either. I really wouldn’t want the screens at Gatwick to advertise ‘East Croydon’ as a faux destination for a service direct to Cambridge.
 

FQTV

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And the cheapest prices would be higher if there was only one fare so it is best left as it is.

If you go somewhere unfamiliar, you research the prices of trains and other transport between the airport and where you are going.

Gatwick is not the only place in the world where there are different fares depending on the choice of travel option. It might be one of the places where there is the least difference between the rail travel options.

By any rational measure, the situation at Gatwick is idiotic, and in my experience it's probably the nadir of the ticketing/fare lunacy that's evident in places right across the network. It makes Stockport to Manchester or some of the North East short distance ECML ticket options look like paragons of clarity by comparison.

Screens and screens of options on the Gatwick vending machines, with effectively hidden conditions, is farcical. When a significant proportion of the customer base is non English as a first language speaking, tired, stressed or just unfamiliar, it smacks of borderline exploitation. The fact that some of the floor-walkers can also be quite pushy in trying to hurry users is just another opportunity for errors to be bade.

In a connected world, it's also (from a user point of view) frankly indefensible that these machines will also sell tickets for travel on services don't exist - as was often the case during Thameslink and London Bridge works, when there were no services running on particular routes or by particular operator brands, and yet the machines were merrily offering and selling operator brand-only on-the-day tickets that were totally unusable.

I have been nowhere in the world with anything like the level of confusion presented to arriving visitors like Gatwick Station.

And, as noted, the fact that there's now only one franchise on the main flow, yet the situation persists.... well, it's plain shoddy.
 

hkstudent

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By any rational measure, the situation at Gatwick is idiotic, and in my experience it's probably the nadir of the ticketing/fare lunacy that's evident in places right across the network. It makes Stockport to Manchester or some of the North East short distance ECML ticket options look like paragons of clarity by comparison.

Screens and screens of options on the Gatwick vending machines, with effectively hidden conditions, is farcical. When a significant proportion of the customer base is non English as a first language speaking, tired, stressed or just unfamiliar, it smacks of borderline exploitation. The fact that some of the floor-walkers can also be quite pushy in trying to hurry users is just another opportunity for errors to be bade.

In a connected world, it's also (from a user point of view) frankly indefensible that these machines will also sell tickets for travel on services don't exist - as was often the case during Thameslink and London Bridge works, when there were no services running on particular routes or by particular operator brands, and yet the machines were merrily offering and selling operator brand-only on-the-day tickets that were totally unusable.

I have been nowhere in the world with anything like the level of confusion presented to arriving visitors like Gatwick Station.

And, as noted, the fact that there's now only one franchise on the main flow, yet the situation persists.... well, it's plain shoddy.
Well, it would be best if tourist to research ticketing options online before getting to Gatwick as it would save time and money. It applies to many places in the world.
 

sprunt

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Well, it would be best if tourist to research ticketing options online before getting to Gatwick as it would save time and money. It applies to many places in the world.

Yes, God forbid that we make it easy for overseas visitors to come and spend their money here.
 

thedbdiboy

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There is one fully integrated franchise operating on the route between Gatwick and London. There is no competition between different companies on this route. The prices are all set by Govia Thameslink, in conjunction with the Department for Transport.
This alone should bust the myth that nationalisation itself is somehow the magic bullet to everyones' woes. The situation between Gatwick and London is fully under the control of public officials and yet there seems neither the will nor the knowledge to sort it out.
 

paul1609

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It didn't cost more in its early days, only in the later run-up to privatisation. And when it was the same price as all other services, the departure screens showed all other Victoria-bound services as terminating at Clapham Junction, thus directing Victoria passengers to the Gatwick Express and taking pressure off other services.
I'm pretty sure that the Gatwick Express Fares were introduced along with the Class 73s and MK2 rolling stock, they were certainly in place and had been for some time when I finished commuting from Littlehampton to Victoria in 1990.
Gatwick Express was only included in the Inter City sector as it was extremely profitable and helped to balance the hugely loss making Cross Country and Midland Main Line Routes.
 

WesternLancer

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I'm pretty sure that the Gatwick Express Fares were introduced along with the Class 73s and MK2 rolling stock, they were certainly in place and had been for some time when I finished commuting from Littlehampton to Victoria in 1990.
Gatwick Express was only included in the Inter City sector as it was extremely profitable and helped to balance the hugely loss making Cross Country and Midland Main Line Routes.
I think it may have been in place by late 1980s - so I guess after sectorisation, which in a way was a pre privatisation 'move' in some ways. I seem to recall that you could use Gat Ex with a saver ticket to a destination beyond London (which I did to get the haulage) but not if you had a London - Brighton return. Not sure when it started tho.

It's alright to say 'research it in advance' but that is not easy without understanding the nature and structure of the UK fragmented rail service - which I would say is probably hard to do if you are unfamiliar with the model of public transport provision that has developed in the UK from say the start of bus deregulation etc.
 

yorkie

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It can't get much easier than tapping in and out using PAYG though!
 

yorkie

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Using PAYG may be easy, but can be significantly more expensive in certain situations.
True; such as if your train from Gatwick arrives into Victoria platforms 13/14 and you tap on the readers there ;)
 

gaillark

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It can't get much easier than tapping in and out using PAYG though!

No!
It's not that straight forward . ...
PAYG/Contactless has it problems when arriving or departing from Victoria. Any arrival or departure from platform 13 or 14 is set up to debit the premium Gatwick Express fare but there are many instances of where a Southern service arrive or depart from these platforms and the user gets charged the premium GX fare although they did not travel on a GX service.
Equally when a GX service arrives or departs from say platform 15 to 18 then you will be charged the lower Southern fare.
A real mess and lottery.
 

JonathanH

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PAYG/Contactless has it problems when arriving or departing from Victoria. Any arrival or departure from platform 13 or 14 is set up to debit the premium Gatwick Express fare but there are many instances of where a Southern service arrive or depart from these platforms and the user gets charged the premium GX fare although they did not travel on a GX service.

To their credit, the staff are usually good at directing passengers to the barriers on platforms 9 to 12 when a Southern service uses platform 13 or 14 and there are signs up as well. Only one Southern train from Gatwick today has used one of these platforms (although other Southern trains have stopped there).
 

Hadders

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No!
It's not that straight forward . ...
PAYG/Contactless has it problems when arriving or departing from Victoria. Any arrival or departure from platform 13 or 14 is set up to debit the premium Gatwick Express fare but there are many instances of where a Southern service arrive or depart from these platforms and the user gets charged the premium GX fare although they did not travel on a GX service.
Equally when a GX service arrives or departs from say platform 15 to 18 then you will be charged the lower Southern fare.
A real mess and lottery.

I can't see any Southern branded trains that are booked to work from platforms 13 or 14. I can see a handful of very early Gatwick Express branded services that use platforms other than 13 or 14 (which would result in a lower charge). Admittedly this could be an issue during disruption but I believe procedures exist to open the side gate to access the other platform barriers in the event of a non Gatwick Express branded service using platforms 13 and 14.

In any case how would you simplify the fares and how they are purchased?
 

gaillark

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Yes, you need to ask staff to redirect you as has been pointed out by Jonathan H above. There are regular instances of Southern trains turning up on 13/14 especially during disruption as well as some booked daily departures. Overall most departures from 13 and 14 are GX but not exclusively. Regular passengers will be aware of procedures but it's the casual users who can get caught out such as said earlier overseas visitors. The point I am making is just beware.
 

hkstudent

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Using PAYG may be easy, but can be significantly more expensive in certain situations.
Particularly for those visitors making a lot of zone 1-2 journey afterwards.
The Oystercard system is not smart enough to split up zone 1-2 cap and the Gatwick journey
 
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They were supposed to be simplifying the fares I thought. Or at least whats left of the Southern only fares as well as Thameslink only and Not Gatwick Express but it seems to of gone all quiet on that front. Perhaps they do not want to abolish them ready for when the franchises are broken up come 2022.
 

Hadders

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Bit if the fares are simplified it will end up with the best value fares being abolished.

Be very careful what you wish for...
 

Joe Paxton

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Using PAYG may be easy, but can be significantly more expensive in certain situations.

Particularly for those visitors making a lot of zone 1-2 journey afterwards.
The Oystercard system is not smart enough to split up zone 1-2 cap and the Gatwick journey

It used to be though (this was in times before the extension to Gatwick). You'd benefit from the best value daily cap and also be charged for single journey(s) as appropriate - it wouldn't default to the most expensive daily cap if some other combination was cheaper.
 

JonathanH

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It used to be though (this was in times before the extension to Gatwick). You'd benefit from the best value daily cap and also be charged for single journey(s) as appropriate - it wouldn't default to the most expensive daily cap if some other combination was cheaper.

That is what will happen on Contactless (subject to the inflated extension fares from the Gatwick extension). If you start with Oyster from Gatwick, I guess it likely that the Gatwick cap applies rather than Gatwick to London plus Zone 1-2 cap.
 

PeterC

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Bit if the fares are simplified it will end up with the best value fares being abolished.

Be very careful what you wish for...
As much as I like railways when I want to travel I just want to turn up and go. If a journey requires "research" then I will get the route out of Google maps and drive. Ditch the cheapest and most expensive and just have a fair fare.
 

Belperpete

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It used to be though (this was in times before the extension to Gatwick). You'd benefit from the best value daily cap and also be charged for single journey(s) as appropriate - it wouldn't default to the most expensive daily cap if some other combination was cheaper.
Even before the extension to Gatwick, there were (and still are) situations where PAYG can charge significantly more. Such as during the afternoon peak.
 

yorkie

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As much as I like railways when I want to travel I just want to turn up and go. If a journey requires "research" then I will get the route out of Google maps and drive. Ditch the cheapest and most expensive and just have a fair fare.
what's a fair fare for London to Gatwick?
 

Belperpete

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As much as I like railways when I want to travel I just want to turn up and go. If a journey requires "research" then I will get the route out of Google maps and drive. Ditch the cheapest and most expensive and just have a fair fare.
There is nothing requiring you to research cheaper ways of making a journey. You can just turn up and go, and pay a fair fare that is not necessarily the cheapest. The advantage of the current system is that those who are prepared to put in a bit of research can often find a cheaper fare. The problem comes when those who have just turned up and paid the "fair fare" then feel cheated when they discover they could have paid less.
 

WesternLancer

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As much as I like railways when I want to travel I just want to turn up and go. If a journey requires "research" then I will get the route out of Google maps and drive. Ditch the cheapest and most expensive and just have a fair fare.
agreed - I researched some fares - with help from the forum - for some friends flying in from Germany to Gatwick, going up to London Bridge, Rtn from Victoria to Sussex via gatwick - earlier this year. It took me longer to work out what to advise them to buy then their flight would have taken!! Frankly ridiculous.

A fair fare might be the avg of all the current fares, valid to all london terminals, maybe a peak / off peak morning restriction differential is acceptable.

Fares like Thameslink only can only have been for ORCATS raiding before the franchise merged, no reason for that sort of thing now really.
 
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