First Group: General Discussion

markymark2000 · 27 Sep 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
There’s always the annual returns for each opco but operating profit can be affected by asset write downs and other one offs. Difficult to gauge individual depots. First South Yorkshire has had a tough few years.

The “stomach for the fight” argument has been raised before with people referring to Barnstaple et al. That they’re fighting in West Lothian and Southampton shows that they will fight - they have to or it would be open season.

They fight in a few places but not as much or as bad as they used to. They used to go all out didn't they flooding routes. They don't seem to do that as much anymore. Look at how they used to fight compared to now. Southampton I am unsure as to why they are still competing. It can't surely be losing them money can it.....

If someone jumped on Potteries or other smaller areas for example though, can you really see them competing like they used to?

RailUK Forums

overthewater · 27 Sep 2019

To give First its dues, its holding its own in West lothian, and LCB still refuses to give passengers proper weekly tickets even after a year,

LCB Regular Price £120 is a complete rip off, yet first will give you a monthly DD for £69... Who are you going to travel with?? First has had some luck on its side.

DragonEast · 27 Sep 2019

overthewater said:
Does first own any land that would be sold for other uses?

I thought that was what gave FirstBus its value? Like Greyhound? The reasoning behind the sale.

Certainly, just looking at Essex, Chelmsford is prime housing (isn't everywhere, according to the Council), though on the edge of one of the few remaining town industrial estates. Basildon, I think. leased from the council, bang in the middle of mooted town centre redevelopment (what??) Colchester, new and leased from the Council, though it'd be a useful consolidation site for Go-Ahead perhaps, releasing their other sites if it's not too remote for the operations; though First are stuck with the old leased depot which the Council can't make their minds up about. Hadleigh, I assume owned again; though the old Hadleigh & District was always the best bit, and they have just reintroduced (one bus so far ) the original First Thamewsay livery from 2000 which might possibly indicate something. Essex needs houses, more than buses; by Government diktat, and the Councils aren't of the type to disagree.

In the case of break up there is no shortage of competition to come to the local feast (alright, foodbank), and whatever is leftover could be picked up by the Council. The problem, I think, is that the entire meal is just indigestible. That's the difference from most of the other ops, where the ch(i)efs have prepared a digestible (even if at times unappetising) meal. So unless someone comes along to swallow the lot, or the new "regional" groupings, and who might that be . . . ?

The tragedy is that Essex is such a horrible place to drive that I'm sure a decent bus company could pick up the "hate driving" fraternity if only there were a service that could be relied upon. Something the big boys often aren't too good at. So far First have been good at keeping hold of the trunk routes that people depend on, but hopeless at running them.

Weemidi135 · 28 Sep 2019

overthewater said:
To give First its dues, its holding its own in West lothian, and LCB still refuses to give passengers proper weekly tickets even after a year,

LCB Regular Price £120 is a complete rip off, yet first will give you a monthly DD for £69... Who are you going to travel with?? First has had some luck on its side.

I think people forget that this £120 tickets also let’s you travel on the city buses and also the trams which you can’t do with your first bus ticket

DragonEast · 28 Sep 2019

markymark2000 said:
It might be worth them trying to wind down as much as possible to release some of the older vehicles and then focus on a uniform fleet which then has the ability to increase the value. Less mix match and newer fleet.

How does Southampton depot do given the amount of competition there.

I think a lot of operators are still scared First will go all out and compete like they used to and they have it in their head 'dont mess with first as you wont be in business long'. This kept a fair bit of competition out but now we need operators in to take over routes, no one will go in. I think if you compete, First will just give up a bit easier now compared to what they once did, more so in areas where it isn't worth competing.

I keep seeing about the most profitable areas/depots but which are the worst performing officially or don't we know?

Ah, the mind of First. A mystery to mere mortals. We have a beautiful case, an established housing estate service, with mostly OAPs, where First decided it was better to run along the congested main road than take the "rat run" through the estate to avoid the congestion. The locals (with the time on their hands,obviously) rebelled, and over 100 of them at a packed public meeting at which First's network manager (with a convenient name giving rise to an even better acronym) defended their decision, individually pointed out that he had just made the service less reliable not more, in the interests of reliability. After supposedly thinking about it for several days, he conceded and the service reverted.

Meanwhile they persuaded a competitor to start a rival service to the same 20m frequency, after a bit of a delay due to the bureaucracy. So now the estate has six buses an hour, with the best of the local investment from First (and branded buses), though they still can't beat the competition on reliability or quality though! And 18 months on, it's still the same. So they'll fight, but what for? Perhaps just being good 'ole Essex boys, any 'ol scrap will do? Elsewhere where there are more commercial passengers but no-one seems able to rattle their cage, they just ain't overly bovvered.

Tempest3K · 28 Sep 2019

DragonEast said:
Ah, the mind of First. A mystery to mere mortals.

Indeed - a couple of random 14 plate singles have appeared in York today (1 actually York branded) after years of nothing except for P&R. Wonder if they are responding to Transdev's recent purchase of new stock for York & Country.

goldisgood · 28 Sep 2019

Tempest3K said:
Indeed - a couple of random 14 plate singles have appeared in York today (1 actually York branded) after years of nothing except for P&R. Wonder if they are responding to Transdev's recent purchase of new stock for York & Country.

Probably because of the LEZ, which was the reason Transdev purchased the new buses.

Andyh82 · 28 Sep 2019

Tempest3K said:
Indeed - a couple of random 14 plate singles have appeared in York today (1 actually York branded) after years of nothing except for P&R. Wonder if they are responding to Transdev's recent purchase of new stock for York & Country.

No, just general fleet cascade following service cuts in Manchester area freeing up 10 streetlites. York are also receiving some deckers from Leeds

Transdev's new buses are for newly won York contracts, replacing Arriva who also ran new vehicles on them.

TheGrandWazoo · 28 Sep 2019

Andyh82 said:
No, just general fleet cascade following service cuts in Manchester area freeing up 10 streetlites. York are also receiving some deckers from Leeds

Transdev's new buses are for newly won York contracts, replacing Arriva who also ran new vehicles on them.

Correct though it's 8 Streetlites (47474-81) received from Oldham. They also received some B9s from Bolton (2) and Leeds (6) to replace some elderly B7TLs that have gone to Bristol.

Wouldn't be surprised to see the B7RLEs released from P&R to enable the knackered, awful B7Ls to be sent to Carlton.

Robertj21a · 28 Sep 2019

Just bear in mind that many planned transfers may now be delayed due to the Wrightbus administration. Until operators can get spare parts for Wright vehicles they will have to hang on to anything else that remains seviceable.

TheGrandWazoo · 28 Sep 2019

Robertj21a said:
Just bear in mind that many planned transfers may now be delayed due to the Wrightbus administration. Until operators can get spare parts for Wright vehicles they will have to hang on to anything else that remains seviceable.

Fair point. They were already working to pretty thin operational margins

In Focus · 30 Sep 2019

Weemidi135 said:
I think people forget that this £120 tickets also let’s you travel on the city buses and also the trams which you can’t do with your first bus ticket

To be fair though that wont be a deciding factor for a large majority of West Lothian passengers.

DragonEast · 30 Sep 2019

I popped briefly, in passing, into ShowBus (or Shambus) - perhaps mainly ArrivaShow, yesterday; though it brought into sharp relief something I've probably not explained very well.

What I meant when I suggested First weren't good at adapting was, for example, that the "old" Eastern National, as one might expect of anything in south/mid Essex (think Ford) expertise was engineering, demonstrated by how they kept old fleet going for decades. A lot of it still is, in enthusiast hands. Like with all modern vehicles, it's now much simpler with more replacement than repair. Customer service was very much secondary, it consisted of getting the buses out and "we've done our job".

That mentality is hard to change. It leaves the poor dears very confused unless there is a very clear and consistent sense of direction from above. Think Stagecoach. First (and Arriva, to a much lesser extent) have struggled.

Robertj21a · 30 Sep 2019

DragonEast said:
I popped briefly, in passing, into ShowBus (or Shambus) - perhaps mainly ArrivaShow, yesterday; though it brought into sharp relief something I've probably not explained very well.

What I meant when I suggested First weren't good at adapting was, for example, that the "old" Eastern National, as one might expect of anything in south/mid Essex (think Ford) expertise was engineering, demonstrated by how they kept old fleet going for decades. A lot of it still is, in enthusiast hands. Like with all modern vehicles, it's now much simpler with more replacement than repair. Customer service was very much secondary, it consisted of getting the buses out and "we've done our job".

That mentality is hard to change. It leaves the poor dears very confused unless there is a very clear and consistent sense of direction from above. Think Stagecoach. First (and Arriva, to a much lesser extent) have struggled.

I was at Showbus too, quite good really considering the atrocious weather forecast (which came down to a couple of short showers). Arriva were part sponsors so, understandably, had a few buses there - but there were numerous (200+ ?) others there as well.

winston270twm · 3 Oct 2019

Something positive for a change,

Small First Group acquisition in Chicago, US (200 vehicles):

First Student Expands Operations in Illinois with acquisition of Hopewell Transportation
03 Oct 2019

First Student, North America's leader in student transportation, today announced that it signed an agreement to acquire Hopewell Transportation. Hopewell is a Chicagoland-based provider of school transportation services for special needs students and their families.

The acquisition is expected to close by early November. Terms were not disclosed.

The organization will continue to operate under the Hopewell Transportation name. Will McDermott, Hopewell’s president, will maintain a senior leadership role in the new venture.

“Traditional transportation models are not one-size-fits-all, and Hopewell has advanced a service that meets the unique requirements of the special needs population,” said First Student President Paul Osland.

“As the largest provider of special education transportation services in North America, this is a logical step for us. Through this partnership, we intend to grow as well as learn about the special care the Hopewell team puts into transporting our most vulnerable population. We will continue to search for opportunities where we can leverage our expertise to benefit school districts, students and families."

Hopewell Transportation started in 2011. Its fleet of more than 200 vehicles provides special-needs transportation for 20 school districts in the Chicago area.

“First Student has long been an industry leader when it comes to developing and implementing best practices for transporting special education students,” said McDermott. “Working together, we can strengthen our commitment to provide safe and reliable transportation to the districts we support and those entrusted to our care.”

Hopewell’s strength is its ability to provide cost savings to each district and a safe and comfortable riding experience for each student. Its operations are designed to offer school districts, parents and students a simple and efficient method to coordinate student transportation.

First Student invests heavily in specialized training and equipment to safely transport students with special needs. A dedicated team of internal experts ensures the company remains at the forefront of evolving requirements and needs.

With the acquisition, First Student extends its market presence in Illinois. The company has 16 locations in the Chicago area. First Student transports more than 70,000 students in the community every school day.

About First Student, Inc.

As the leading school transportation solutions provider in North America, First Student strives to provide the best start and finish to every school day. First Student completes five million student journeys each day, moving more passengers than all U.S. airlines combined. With a team of highly-trained drivers and the industry’s strongest safety record, First Student delivers reliable, quality services including full-service transportation and management, special-needs transportation, route optimization and scheduling, maintenance, and charter services for 1,100 school district contracts. For more information, please visit firststudentinc.com.

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2019/03-10-19.aspx

TheGrandWazoo · 3 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
Something positive for a change,

Small First Group acquisition in Chicago, US (200 vehicles):

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2019/03-10-19.aspx

An indication of where the future lies for First Group???

winston270twm · 3 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
An indication of where the future lies for First Group???

They've already confirmed that, but appear to have done little or nothing to deliver of their 'latest' strategy to hive off UK bus. Don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but I also noticed a couple of weeks ago that the CMA is to Investigate WMCL award, which could throw another spanner if FGP's works....

Friday 20 September 2019 10:01 am
Watchdog probes West Coast rail franchise award to First Group and Trenitalia
Sebastian McCarthy

Britain’s competition watchdog has said it is investigating the award of the West Coast partnership to First Group and Trenitalia.

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is looking at whether the joint operation could lead to “a substantial lessening of competition within any market”.

Read more: Saga profits slump

The CMA is inviting comments on the transaction from any interested parties.

“The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) is considering whether it is or may be the case that this transaction, if carried into effect, will result in the creation of a relevant merger situation under the merger provisions of the Enterprise Act 2002,” the regulator said in a statement today.

Last month the government announced that First Trenitalia had been appointed to run the West Coast mainline from December 2019 to 2031.

First Group and Italian firm Trenitalia will replace Virgin on the line that runs from London Euston to Glasgow via Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester.

The First-Trenitalia consortium saw off a rival bid from a Chinese consortium led by Hong Kong’s subway operator MTR.

The announcement came despite an ongoing review into rail franchising by former British Airways chief executive Keith Williams.

Read more: A third of trains were delayed over past year

Transport secretary Grant Shapps and Williams approved the partnership which the Department for Transport said was designed to fit with the direction of the review and to facilitate Williams’ recommendations in due course.

The consortium has promised 263 extra services each week from 2022, the introduction of new environmentally friendly trains and a £117m refurbishment of the existing Pendolino fleet.

https://www.cityam.com/competition-...-and-trenitalias-west-coast-rail-partnership/

Robertj21a · 4 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
They've already confirmed that, but appear to have done little or nothing to deliver of their 'latest' strategy to hive off UK bus. Don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but I also noticed a couple of weeks ago that the CMA is to Investigate WMCL award, which could throw another spanner if FGP's works....

https://www.cityam.com/competition-...-and-trenitalias-west-coast-rail-partnership/

Not sure of the accuracy but a First Bus official did say to me recently that any sales or MBOs were expected to be further held up 'due to Pension issues'.

Goldfish62 · 4 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
They've already confirmed that, but appear to have done little or nothing to deliver of their 'latest' strategy to hive off UK bus. Don't think it's been mentioned in this thread, but I also noticed a couple of weeks ago that the CMA is to Investigate WMCL award, which could throw another spanner if FGP's works....

https://www.cityam.com/competition-...-and-trenitalias-west-coast-rail-partnership/

Not sure I understand what they're looking at. The only thing I can think of is TPE, but surely that's only a tiny overlap.

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

Goldfish62 said:
Not sure I understand what they're looking at. The only thing I can think of is TPE, but surely that's only a tiny overlap.

Especially when you consider that they allowed VT to have both major Anglo Scot franchises (with Stagecoach also having EMT).

oldman · 4 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Especially when you consider that they allowed VT to have both major Anglo Scot franchises (with Stagecoach also having EMT).

But only after an invesigation. The conclusion was 'The evidence examined by the CMA indicated that competition between the East Coast and West Coast rail services was limited and that air services between London, Edinburgh and Glasgow provide significant rivalry to the rail services'. They were also concerned about segments like Peterbrough-Grantham, which look trivial compared to Preston-Scotland.

winston270twm · 4 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
Not sure of the accuracy but a First Bus official did say to me recently that any sales or MBOs were expected to be further held up 'due to Pension issues'.

It's the 'pension issues' that seem to be causing a lot of the problems with FGP finally moving forward to implement their new strategy, I understand it's been 'pension issues' that have resulted in a number of deals to collapse / buyers walk away over the years....

winston270twm · 4 Oct 2019

markymark2000 said:
Like who? I can't see any independents who want out of the industry.

Yourbus was one of the four up for sale/that wanted out, sadly no longer trading as of this morning.
http://catchyourbus.co.uk/

gka472l · 4 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
Yourbus was one of the four up for sale/that wanted out, sadly no longer trading as of this morning.
http://catchyourbus.co.uk/

Seems 19 of the (now) former Your Bus vehicles are heading to Rotala at the former First operation at Bolton today, info from another forum......14 Merc's & 5 Enviro's

winston270twm · 4 Oct 2019

gka472l said:
Seems 19 of the (now) former Your Bus vehicles are heading to Rotala at the former First operation at Bolton today, info from another forum......14 Merc's & 5 Enviro's

So it seems, just read the post myself.

Volvodart · 4 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
Not sure of the accuracy but a First Bus official did say to me recently that any sales or MBOs were expected to be further held up 'due to Pension issues'.

It is likely the recent actuarial valuation of the schemes is available now, so it could be that.

markymark2000 · 4 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
Yourbus was one of the four up for sale/that wanted out, sadly no longer trading as of this morning.
http://catchyourbus.co.uk/

Ahh, one of 4. I will keep an eye out and see if I can spot the other 3. No one really springs to mind. Thanks for your help.

Alexbus12 · 4 Oct 2019

markymark2000 said:
Ahh, one of 4. I will keep an eye out and see if I can spot the other 3. No one really springs to mind. Thanks for your help.

Potentially Cumfybus? Heard they're up for sale.

winston270twm · 4 Oct 2019

markymark2000 said:
Ahh, one of 4. I will keep an eye out and see if I can spot the other 3. No one really springs to mind. Thanks for your help.

I doubt any will spring to mind, as it's not generally common knowledge.

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

winston270twm said:
I doubt any will spring to mind, as it's not generally common knowledge.

Is it Yarranton Bros - would be a good strategic fit for Rotala

First Group: General Discussion

On Moderation

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Member

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member