Class 195 ride quality

MOONY · 22 Sep 2019

Forgive me if this has been raised before but,
It it just me or has anyone else noticed the rough riding characteristics of the new class 195s?
I have made three journeys on them so far, and there is a lot of "bumping and rattling" [I don't know how best to describe this] coming from the bogies, and every rail joint and point and crossing is felt substantially.
My last journey was from Preston to Barrow, where I changed into a 30 years old class 156 to Workington, and the smoothness of this ride was vastly superior to the 195. I wonder what passengers must think doing this journey in reverse.
Any thoughts?

RailUK Forums

hexagon789 · 22 Sep 2019

MOONY said:
Forgive me if this has been raised before but,
It it just me or has anyone else noticed the rough riding characteristics of the new class 195s?
I have made three journeys on them so far, and there is a lot of "bumping and rattling" [I don't know how best to describe this] coming from the bogies, and every rail joint and point and crossing is felt substantially.
My last journey was from Preston to Barrow, where I changed into a 30 years old class 156 to Workington, and the smoothness of this ride was vastly superior to the 195. I wonder what passengers must think doing this journey in reverse.
Any thoughts?

Not at all surprising, very few new trains ride at all well on anything less than perfect track.

61248 · 26 Sep 2019

Both the 195 & 331 I think are an awful hard bumpy ride,going over the junctions from Doncaster to Leeds I found very uncomfortable
After 2 rides on 195's from Preston to Carnforth & back it was a relief to ride on a 319 to Blackpool.it glided along the track

Karl · 26 Sep 2019

Yes I have to agree the ride is a bit ropey. They tend to sway from side to side. However I was impressed with their acceleration from standing starts. It wouldn't surprise me to see Northern getting whiplash claims!!! Nice internal units though. The only complaint from me is the seat coverings. Moquette (sp?) would have been nicer.

geoffk · 26 Sep 2019

Northern Ireland Railways have had an all-CAF fleet for their internal services for several years. How easy is it to compare the NIR and Northern trains in terms of reliability, ride and build quality in relation to what they cost? What would we learn from such a comparison? I guess it's too early as the Northern trains have not been in service long enough. NIR have just awarded their third contract with CAF, suggesting they are happy with the units.

jamiearmley · 26 Sep 2019

I work the 331 units as a guard. Today, I was told by a punter, that the ride quality 'of the Pacers we get up our way' was preferable to the experience on the 331. To be fair, I had to agree. A pity, given the high hopes for a step change in service quality.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2019

jamiearmley said:
I work the 331 units as a guard. Today, I was told by a punter, that the ride quality 'of the Pacers we get up our way' was preferable to the experience on the 331. To be fair, I had to agree. A pity, given the high hopes for a step change in service quality.

Pacers get a bad name but they ride very smoothly on welded rail - Roger Ford has written about it more than once.

Yes, I thought the 195 was rough, one of the elements about it that made me feel it was a bit meh so far as new units go. I'll likely be on one tomorrow so will refine my thoughts then

Mikey C · 26 Sep 2019

Maybe something needs adjusting. I'm not an expert but I remember the 395s were quite rough in tunnels until dampers were fitted

Mogster · 26 Sep 2019

They come in for some stick on here but both the 150s and 156s are excellently riding units. On bad track 319s ride much worse, with a swaying motion imo. Maybe because they are lighter.

The couple of Chat Moss journeys I’ve had on a 195 I really didn’t find the ride that bad.

Bletchleyite · 26 Sep 2019

Mikey C said:
Maybe something needs adjusting. I'm not an expert but I remember the 395s were quite rough in tunnels until dampers were fitted

Certainly something (dampers?) was replaced on the FNW Pacers when they first got tarted up, and it made a massive difference to the side to side sway.

ed1971 · 28 Sep 2019

Mogster said:
They come in for some stick on here but both the 150s and 156s are excellently riding units. On bad track 319s ride much worse, with a swaying motion imo. Maybe because they are lighter.

The couple of Chat Moss journeys I’ve had on a 195 I really didn’t find the ride that bad.

I have noticed too that the BREL bogies fitted to Class 15x and Class 319s give a smoother ride than even the Class 185s. I have noticed however that the ride in the Class 319 power cars is not as smooth.

robbeech · 28 Sep 2019

Karl said:
Yes I have to agree the ride is a bit ropey. They tend to sway from side to side. However I was impressed with their acceleration from standing starts. It wouldn't surprise me to see Northern getting whiplash claims!!! Nice internal units though. The only complaint from me is the seat coverings. Moquette (sp?) would have been nicer.

They don't even pay out Delay Repay claims so i don't see how they'd consider this.
I'm assuming (likely incorrectly) that the 331 and 195 are going to be the same in terms of ride. The 331s i have been on i haven't found to be too bad at all. Maybe just over good track.

Bletchleyite · 29 Sep 2019

Been on a couple this weekend and I didn't notice the ride quality being below par, for what it's worth. Many other faults, but not that.

js1000 · 30 Sep 2019

The 195s/331s are Jekyll & Hyde. They are not all bad and the ride quality is smooth on straight, uninterrupted track. But over points and junctions (into Manchester Piccadilly for instance) they are awful with strange 'clunking' noises over the bogies.

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

js1000 said:
The 195s/331s are Jekyll & Hyde. They are not all bad and the ride quality is smooth on straight, uninterrupted track. But over points and junctions (into Manchester Piccadilly for instance) they are awful with strange 'clunking' noises over the bogies.

A fine Pacer replacement, then

507 001 · 30 Sep 2019

I wondered if somebody ticked the ‘sports suspension’ box by accident...

Karl · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Been on a couple this weekend and I didn't notice the ride quality being below par, for what it's worth. Many other faults, but not that.

Crikey Neil! I'm surprised you didn't experience the wonky ride

The_Train · 30 Sep 2019

I rode one from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly and can't say I noticed an inferior ride quality

fgwrich · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Pacers get a bad name but they ride very smoothly on welded rail - Roger Ford has written about it more than once.

Indeed, when the 143s are kept to the Exmouth - Exeter - Paignton axis of the Devon Metro, they're fine units and suitable for the job (CWR on nearly all of that). It's less fun when they turn up on the barnstaple branch for example!

As for the 195/331s ride quality, could it be to do with the inside frame bogies? I'm not a fan of the Bombardier version of those, the Voyagers ride quite badly over rough track, and you do get quite a few knocking noises from underneath those (and 172s). The Siemens variant under the Desiro Cities seem ok so far though?

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

Karl said:
Crikey Neil! I'm surprised you didn't experience the wonky ride

It might be because both times I sat in the central section, almost all trains ride worse at the coach end. That said, Desiros can be decidedly rough at times so maybe I'm used to it.

More noticeable were other quality issues like vibration, noisy (or completely failed) aircon and water pouring from the ceiling, not to mention the ridiculous misaligned seating layout. (Of course I've moaned on the other threads about those

)

Mitchell Hurd · 30 Sep 2019

I'm on the 13:45 from Lancaster to Manchester Oxford Road (changing for the 15:38 to Leeds) instead of the 14:28 TPExpress - unexpectedly a 3-car 195 for me. First time in one too.

I can hear like clunks underneath but these are far better than the rest of Northerns DMU's - I'm even sat in the front forward table seat behind the drivers cab

!

Karl · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It might be because both times I sat in the central section, almost all trains ride worse at the coach end.

Aha! Yes. I must admit my travels have always been in the rear coach. I'll try the middle next time

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

Karl said:
Aha! Yes. I must admit my travels have always been in the rear coach. I'll try the middle next time

Not so much which coach, but almost all rolling stock is smoothest half way between the bogies, and roughest at the coach ends. This is because in the middle you're being equally supported by both bogies, but at one end you're only being supported by one, so if that goes down a dip you go down the dip with it.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Rode the 331s at the beginning of August between Doncaster and Leeds (and back). Considering they are new and that that stretch is pretty good as LNER services to Leeds use it, the 331's ride was pretty ropey. There is a continual vertical vibration at speed which I've not experienced on any other modern EMUs or DMUs. I don't believe that internal frame bogies per se are anything to do with that flawed ride as I'd travelled up from Luton to Sheffied and back in EM Meridians, an they were fine. Similarly, Crossrail 345s and 172 turbos stars don't vibrate like that. The class 700 ride has already been mentioned and that is pretty stable at 100mph even on indifferent track.
Maybe the purchasers and manufacturers should have spent less time worrying about seats lining up with windows and concentrated on getting the ride reasonable.

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

AM9 said:
Maybe the purchasers and manufacturers should have spent less time worrying about seats lining up with windows

Other than by not having windows at all I fail to see how they could have spent any less time on it. The seats are not lined up to the windows at all. The interior layout has clearly been specified without any reference whatsoever to the window positions.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Other than by not having windows at all I fail to see how they could have spent any less time on it. The seats are not lined up to the windows at all. The interior layout has clearly been specified without any reference whatsoever to the window positions.

Well, I didn't think it was that bad, see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_331#/media/File:Class331_Interior.jpg
sorry, I can't seem to post the picture here.

Bletchleyite · 30 Sep 2019

AM9 said:
Well, I didn't think it was that bad, see here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_331#/media/File:Class331_Interior.jpg
sorry, I can't seem to post the picture here.

The picture at that link clearly shows almost all visible seats not aligned to the windows, i.e. there is only one table bay visible (the far one on the left) which has a window in the middle aligned with the table at its centreline, and no pairs of airline seat rows with the rear of the headrest of one row at the centreline of the window.

And even that one table that is is a bit off. (I think there's one in the end section, not visible, that is aligned properly).

It's basically the same as the Mk3 was as built - the windows are spaced for First Class (despite the units having none) and so the Standard bays misalign progressively.

I would guess at approximately 60% of seats having a good window view, which is poor, possibly the worst I've seen recently (though the Class 150/1 and PEP EMUs are worse with approximately 0% of seats having a good window view). The CAF Mk5 stock is similar.

Nymanic · 30 Sep 2019

They're not lined up. And the image illustrates that.

To reiterate what's been said before ad nauseum, the centre section of each car (between the doors) is poorly aligned at one side of each table bay. Seats at the car ends are properly aligned.

It's probably a consequence of the wide vestibule areas, which house a couple of tip-up seats (and so take up some of the window space). The seats themselves are seldom used, as the area is typically occupied by a wall of suitcases, and/or crush loads.

I theorise that the wide vestibules were a later design addition (and, to be fair, a crucial one) - but perhaps CAF just weren't being paid enough to redesign the windows accordingly.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Nymanic said:
They're not lined up. And the image illustrates that.

To reiterate what's been said before ad nauseum, the centre section of each car (between the doors) is poorly aligned at one side of each table bay. Seats at the car ends are properly aligned.

It's probably a consequence of the wide vestibule areas, which house a couple of tip-up seats (and so take up some of the window space). The seats themselves are seldom used, as the area is typically occupied by a wall of suitcases, and/or crush loads.

I theorise that the wide vestibules were a later design addition (and, to be fair, a crucial one) - but perhaps CAF just weren't being paid enough to redesign the windows accordingly.

Well even if they were they would have been better advised to spend a bit more getting the gremlins out of the suspension.

Camden · 30 Sep 2019

Seats are rubbish , would be my best guess at the main reason.

On the 319s on Thameslink we had decent, comfy soft seats. Race along at 100mph in perfect comfort. They sent them up north, largely in one piece and again, Liverpool to Manchester in perfect comfort.

Then Northern weave their magic on the seating, and it's an endurance feat.

I've been on one of the new Northern trains, and although the seats aren't as bad as the ones they soiled the 319s with, they're not far off and they definitely do transmit ride quality to posterior with little loss in power...

Class 195 ride quality

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