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ATO on Thameslink (?) and December 2019 timetable discussion

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387star

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Has training started yet or is this something that will be quietly forgotton about now we learn the Maidstone services might never run

*AFAIK only a few driver trainers/commissioning drivers have been fully trained so far
 
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AlbertBeale

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Has training started yet or is this something that will be quietly forgotton about now we learn the Maidstone services might never run

*AFAIK only a few driver trainers/commissioning drivers have been fully trained so far

What's the connection between ATO and Maidstone?
 

Need2

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Needed to increase the capacity in the core for the 21st to 24th hourly services I think?

Correct!
ATO needs to be implemented first so that the capacity can be increased. You will then get the Ashford (Maidstone East) services to Cambridge and the Orpington to WGC services.
Can't see it happening soon though, if at all during this franchise!
 

Goldfish62

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Correct!
ATO needs to be implemented first so that the capacity can be increased. You will then get the Ashford (Maidstone East) services to Cambridge and the Orpington to WGC services.
Can't see it happening soon though, if at all during this franchise!
Really?! So all the publicity about it being the first ATO mainline railway was wasted/premature?
 

DaveN

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Doesn't the Traffic Management System also need to be implemented to go 24tph ?

I haven't heard anything about how its implementation is going.
 

hkstudent

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Really?! So all the publicity about it being the first ATO mainline railway was wasted/premature?
I doubt it, as the Thameslink core section does manage to have a frequency increase by the ATO system.
Of course, the ATO system would be more effective if that's being extended to London Bridge and Elephant & Castle stations.
 

hwl

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Doesn't the Traffic Management System also need to be implemented to go 24tph ?

I haven't heard anything about how its implementation is going.
18+ months behind the last I heard. Hitachi didn't fully appreciate what they were bidding on...
 

Carlisle

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When you consider ATO on LUs sub surface lines must now be well over a decade late with contracts failing etc, it’ll probably be ranked a substantial achievement if this ultimately turns out only 18 months behind schedule
 
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RichardGore

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The issue with ATO isn’t contracts—all the infrastructure and rolling stock is done, TMS notwithstanding. The issue is driver training.
 

Goldfish62

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When you consider ATO on LUs sub surface lines must now be well over a decade late with contracts failing etc, it’ll probably be ranked a substantial achievement if this ultimately turns out only 18 months behind schedule
The constant delays with the subsurface lines have been caused due to the technical complexity of the requirement, ie, a large network with multiple flat junctions. It's about five years late, not well over a decade.
 

Bald Rick

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The constant delays with the subsurface lines have been caused due to the technical complexity of the requirement, ie, a large network with multiple flat junctions.

A bit like Bermondsey - London Bridge - Met Jn - Blackfriars Jn (Elephant & Castle / Southwark Bridge Jn) - St Pancras - Dock Jn - Kentish Town / Belle Isle Jn - Holloway - Finsbury Park? ;)
 

Bald Rick

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Heard ATO driver training starts next month...

I know this will sound incredibly fatuous, but it does seem slightly ironic that drivers need training how not to drive a train! (Apologies to all drivers).
 

carriageline

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I doubt it, as the Thameslink core section does manage to have a frequency increase by the ATO system.
Of course, the ATO system would be more effective if that's being extended to London Bridge and Elephant & Castle stations.

ATO has been extended, along with ETCS to country side of London Bridge. It’s around Blue Anchor Junction. You could have gone to Elephant, but ETCS needs to give “virtual” movement authorities across the transition otherwise you won’t get it out the ETCS area. It does this by looking at signal aspects. As you go towards Loughborough it’s relay interlocking, which could cause problems.

The issue with ATO isn’t contracts—all the infrastructure and rolling stock is done, TMS notwithstanding. The issue is driver training.

ATO I believe has been tested and signed in for a while now!
 

Goldfish62

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A bit like Bermondsey - London Bridge - Met Jn - Blackfriars Jn (Elephant & Castle / Southwark Bridge Jn) - St Pancras - Dock Jn - Kentish Town / Belle Isle Jn - Holloway - Finsbury Park? ;)
No, much higher frequency than any of that. Ultimately the sub-surface lines are planned to run at up to 34tph in the central area and unlike Thameslink there far more conflicting movements overall.
 

edwin_m

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The busiest part of the core is from Blackfriars to St Pancras. The St Pancras junction is grade separated leaving Blackfriars as the major flat junction conflict. Thameslink also has dedicated tracks through London Bridge and the diveunder creates grade separated junctions for all regular movements. So I'd say the junction conflicts on Thameslink are far less severe than the sub-surface lines - if I've counted correctly there are six junctions on the Circle (original definition) and two more only just off it where moves in opposite directions cross each other on the flat.
 

DerekC

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The problem with ATO on Thameslink is likely to be reliability - things like accurate stopping and ironing out the software glitches. So far AFAIK they have run a couple of trains through in ATO on odd occasions. Running 24 tph in peaks and a service more or less 24/7 is a different kettle of fish entirely. Getting it right will demand an engineering support team with the right skills to collect data and fix the problems as they arise - and the team put together by NR and Siemens which drove the testing through very successfully will have long ago disbanded. So very sadly, because this really could have been a UK first, I am afraid that despite the hype it won't happen. And then everyone will say that it was a waste of time trying.
 

Goldfish62

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The busiest part of the core is from Blackfriars to St Pancras. The St Pancras junction is grade separated leaving Blackfriars as the major flat junction conflict. Thameslink also has dedicated tracks through London Bridge and the diveunder creates grade separated junctions for all regular movements. So I'd say the junction conflicts on Thameslink are far less severe than the sub-surface lines - if I've counted correctly there are six junctions on the Circle (original definition) and two more only just off it where moves in opposite directions cross each other on the flat.
Correct. The triangular junction at Aldgate is a particular headache, with up to 34 TPH on each leg. Thameslink doesn't begin to come near this complexity.
 

Mojo

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The constant delays with the subsurface lines have been caused due to the technical complexity of the requirement, ie, a large network with multiple flat junctions. It's about five years late, not well over a decade.
Depends who you talk to though, Metronet in 2004 were promising the Hammersmith & Circle line would have new signals and controls by 2011 and the Met & District by 2015.
 

Goldfish62

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Depends who you talk to though, Metronet in 2004 were promising the Hammersmith & Circle line would have new signals and controls by 2011 and the Met & District by 2015.
And we know what happened to Metronet. Their false promises were not related to technical issues.
 

ijmad

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Needed to increase the capacity in the core for the 21st to 24th hourly services I think?

It's only 19tph at the minute through the Core. Compared to the full proposed timetable, 2x Cambridge to Maidstone (all day), 2x Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks (peak only) and 1x Bedford to Littlehampton (peak direction) are still missing. Plus rumours and persistent suggestions of more trains around the Wimbledon loop in to the bay platforms when the Sevenoaks trains are out the way, which would mean more trains crossing in front of each other South of the river.

I'm not sure anything is being introduced in the December change?

Or are you saying that the powers that be foresee that 21tph will be OK under conventional signalling?
 

bluegoblin7

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And we know what happened to Metronet. Their false promises were not related to technical issues.

SSR resignalling is generally regarded to be one of the things that Metronet got right. It would certainly be much further on the way by now, if not completed, had TfL not cancelled it just because it was a Metronet plan.
 

Bald Rick

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It's only 19tph at the minute through the Core. Compared to the full proposed timetable, 2x Cambridge to Maidstone (all day), 2x Welwyn GC to Sevenoaks (peak only) and 1x Bedford to Littlehampton (peak direction) are still missing. Plus rumours and persistent suggestions of more trains around the Wimbledon loop in to the bay platforms when the Sevenoaks trains are out the way, which would mean more trains crossing in front of each other South of the river.

I'm not sure anything is being introduced in the December change?

Or are you saying that the powers that be foresee that 21tph will be OK under conventional signalling?

It’s actually 20 through the core today, the 2nd Littlehampton runs but doesn’t go to Littlehampton (southbound am peak).
 

ijmad

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It’s actually 20 through the core today, the 2nd Littlehampton runs but doesn’t go to Littlehampton (southbound am peak).

I was looking at the Northbound service - since I assumed that surely the AM peak direction for Littlehampton is towards London?! Is that not the case?

I do see you get 20tph in the AM peak going south though.

Also, on the basis of the timetable today, I guess the Littlehamptons will be in both directions then eventually, I had been assuming thus far they were towards London in the AM (arriving at Bedford in the mid morning) and away from London in the PM (leaving Bedford around 4pm).
 
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neilm

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It’s actually 20 through the core today, the 2nd Littlehampton runs but doesn’t go to Littlehampton (southbound am peak).

But still missing the extra Littlehampton to London northbound and southbound in the morning and evening, respectively.

These were in RTT until recently but then removed (again). Are these waiting on ATO or is there another reason they keep getting pushed back?
 
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