West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

HamworthyGoods · 10 Sep 2019

greaterwest said:
That's what First did with the Class 444 Desiro units, they removed the little-used shop and changed the catering supplier, rather than actually putting the static shop area to good use.

The little used buffets on the 444s would have gone regardless of who had run the franchise - Angel trains/SSWT had come up with a spec for increasing seating capacity on the 444s for the failed direct award and whoever took on the franchise was expected to implement that.

RailUK Forums

greaterwest · 10 Sep 2019

HamworthyGoods said:
The little used buffets on the 444s would have gone regardless of who had run the franchise - Angel trains/SSWT had come up with a spec for increasing seating capacity on the 444s for the failed direct award and whoever took on the franchise was expected to implement that.

Did the spec include the removal of the shop, though? The 444 seating capacity has been improved in other ways (the readjustment of First Class, removal of the Guard's office)

swt_passenger · 10 Sep 2019

greaterwest said:
That's what First did with the Class 444 Desiro units, they removed the little-used shop and changed the catering supplier, rather than actually putting the static shop area to good use.

Removing the shop from 444s was first announced in the 2007 franchise spec. As was usual with many aspects of that franchise, SWT never got round to actually doing it...

swt_passenger · 10 Sep 2019

greaterwest said:
Did the spec include the removal of the shop, though? The 444 seating capacity has been improved in other ways (the readjustment of First Class, removal of the Guard's office)

I don’t think they would have achieved the overall increased standard numbers specified without including the shop area.

greaterwest · 10 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
Removing the shop from 444s was first announced in the 2007 franchise spec. As was usual with many aspects of that franchise, SWT never got round to actually doing it...

Ah I wasn't aware of that, thanks then.

swt_passenger said:
I don’t think they would have achieved the overall increased standard numbers specified without including the shop area.

The shop only made space for 6 more seats, the guards cabin added 8, and the 1st class reconfiguration added one extra first class seat and 16 standard including 2 tables.

HamworthyGoods · 10 Sep 2019

greaterwest said:
Did the spec include the removal of the shop, though? The 444 seating capacity has been improved in other ways (the readjustment of First Class, removal of the Guard's office)

Yes the spec worked up for the SSWT direct award included taking the buffet and the guards compartment out and reducing first class footprint - the taking out of the buffets has long been mooted as ever since they were introduced as they little used.

swt_passenger · 10 Sep 2019

greaterwest said:
The shop only made space for 6 more seats, the guards cabin added 8, and the 1st class reconfiguration added one extra first class seat and 16 standard including 2 tables.

I think you have to look at the combined area as a whole. The guard’s office itself only took up about a bay of 4 seats, but the space between it and the nearest door wouldn’t have been available for seats to be added without also removing the mini-buffet and its partitions.

RealTrains07 · 10 Sep 2019

swt_passenger said:
I think you have to look at the combined area as a whole. The guard’s office itself only took up about a bay of 4 seats, but the space between it and the nearest door wouldn’t have been available for seats to be added without also removing the mini-buffet and its partitions.

I was gonna say, the guards office was no where as big that it took up 8 seats

KashmireHawker · 25 Sep 2019

I suspect we know why the announcement of branding and other details is not happening at the mo: the CMA last week got involved:

https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.u...t-rail-partnership-may-be-blocked-903123.html

On Friday the UK watchdog suggested that giving the contract to the pair may contravene antitrust rules.

The Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) said it was considering whether the First-Trenitalia joint venture could result in a situation that “may result in a substantial lessening of competition”.

LNW-GW Joint · 25 Sep 2019

I think we would have heard by now if this was going to delay the handover.
The CMA investigation could take months, if they have to call for evidence and whatnot.
The CMA has never blocked a rail franchise award, the worst they have done is to demand minor remedies over local bus service overlaps.

Doomotron · 25 Sep 2019

These competition issues always happen with new franchises, if Stagecoach was allowed to run all 3 intercity routes in the UK, I'm sure First won't be worrying about also owning First East COast and Hull Trains.

Darandio · 25 Sep 2019

KashmireHawker said:
I suspect we know why the announcement of branding and other details is not happening at the mo: the CMA last week got involved:

https://www.proactiveinvestors.co.u...t-rail-partnership-may-be-blocked-903123.html

Who is we? It's hot air.

RealTrains07 · 25 Sep 2019

Check out the thread for it https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...e-award-to-first-group-and-trenitalia.192467/

ScottGallagher · 29 Sep 2019

With only just over two months to go, does anyone know how the transition arrangements are going, who will be the MD etc. Will it be someone from within First Group? I would have thought it would be a sought after job within the industry. Who would be a good candidate from the existing MDs of the current franchises?
Anyone who won't royally screw up what's in place would be a good start .

LNW-GW Joint · 29 Sep 2019

I see Karen Boswell is leaving Hitachi tomorrow, where she was MD of Hitachi Rail Europe and played a big part in the IEP and AT300 manufacturing programmes.
Before that she was MD of DfT's East Coast company when it was part of DOR.
I could see her playing a big part in a future rail operation, but I've no idea if she has First Trenitalia's WCP in her sights.
Network Rail is also in the middle of a large-scale reorganisation, which might throw up a candidate to run WCP, especially if there is a TOC/NR alliance involved.
Of course, the Williams review might throw up a significantly different management structure for the railway in a few months' time.

The Virgin/Stagecoach management has nowhere to go, of course, so maybe they will move over in much the same way as VTEC's did to LNER.
The general silence, though, might point to an external appointment.

ScottGallagher · 29 Sep 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
I see Karen Boswell is leaving Hitachi tomorrow, where she was MD of Hitachi Rail Europe and played a big part in the IEP and AT300 manufacturing programmes.
Before that she was MD of DfT's East Coast company when it was part of DOR.
I could see her playing a big part in a future rail operation, but I've no idea if she has First Trenitalia's WCP in her sights.
Network Rail is also in the middle of a large-scale reorganisation, which might throw up a candidate to run WCP, especially if there is a TOC/NR alliance involved.
Of course, the Williams review might throw up a significantly different management structure for the railway in a few months' time.

The Virgin/Stagecoach management has nowhere to go, of course, so maybe they will move over in much the same way as VTEC's did to LNER.
The general silence, though, might point to an external appointment.

Generally new TOCs seem to prefer have a clean break at least at MD level. Karen Boswell is a good shout, plenty of experience but would she want to tow the First Group trend amd be acquainted with turning things to bat ****

Aictos · 29 Sep 2019

ScottGallagher said:
Generally new TOCs seem to prefer have a clean break at least at MD level. Karen Boswell is a good shout, plenty of experience but would she want to tow the First Group trend amd be acquainted with turning things to bat ****

Well seeing as she worked for First Great Western as Head of Onboard Services, also First Capital Connect as Customer Service Director/Deputy Managing Director I can’t see why there be a issue with her towing the First Group line.

Also bear in mind that she was also the Managing Director for East Coast I would say she’s more then qualified as a potential MD for the West Coast Partnership.

We will see as they could have someone in mind from a non Railway Industry...

Birkonian · 29 Sep 2019

Talking to the staff member serving the food and drink yesterday I said that I presumed that were being TUPE'd to the new company. They said that they hadn't heard anything yet.

EE Andy b1 · 29 Sep 2019

Birkonian said:
Talking to the staff member serving the food and drink yesterday I said that I presumed that were being TUPE'd to the new company. They said that they hadn't heard anything yet.

TUPE'd is correct for all current staff. There will be staff roadshows from mid October at various locations.

VT 390 · 8 Oct 2019

What date will be the last day of Virgin Trains operation/first day of First Trenitalia operation?

EE Andy b1 · 8 Oct 2019

VT 390 said:
What date will be the last day of Virgin Trains operation/first day of First Trenitalia operation?

Sat 07th/ Sun 08th December 2019.
I believe it's at 0200 Sunday morning.

donald2007 · 10 Oct 2019

I will be travelling after the franchise has switched over. What do you think the service standards will be? Especially in FC and potentially at weekends? Have they indicated an improvement or the miserable present standard of weekend FC?

Hadders · 10 Oct 2019

donald2007 said:
I will be travelling after the franchise has switched over. What do you think the service standards will be? Especially in FC and potentially at weekends? Have they indicated an improvement or the miserable present standard of weekend FC?

I doubt there’ll be an improvement, if anything catering will get downgraded to that of GWR (i.e. nothing other than tea and biscuits that you collect yourself).

donald2007 · 10 Oct 2019

Terrible. On Trenitalia in First Class there is prosecco, nice meals. As much as you want to eat and drink. All within a cabin of I seem to recall 10 seats. Well, at least they will use the money from the franchise to keep the standards in Italy high

.

ainsworth74 · 10 Oct 2019

Hadders said:
I doubt there’ll be an improvement, if anything catering will get downgraded to that of GWR (i.e. nothing other than tea and biscuits that you collect yourself).

Source?

Bletchleyite · 10 Oct 2019

donald2007 said:
Terrible. On Trenitalia in First Class there is prosecco, nice meals. As much as you want to eat and drink. All within a cabin of I seem to recall 10 seats. Well, at least they will use the money from the franchise to keep the standards in Italy high .

I wouldn't expect to see this looking like FS/Trenitalia. It's very clearly a FirstGroup operation with them bolted on the side for the HS2 skills. If HS2 is cancelled I wouldn't be surprised to see them bail from it. They'll have about as much influence as Keolis had on the previous incarnation of TPE (which appeared to me to be basically the "i" in TransPennine on the logo and nowt else).

It'll more likely look like GWR but without the restaurant car.

VT 390 · 10 Oct 2019

Does this mean that it is likely they will get rid of the first class weekday menus as well?

Aictos · 10 Oct 2019

VT 390 said:
Does this mean that it is likely they will get rid of the first class weekday menus as well?

Nothing is confirmed, it’s purely speculation by members here at the moment to what will happen bless of course they’re privy to some classified information that hasn’t yet been briefed to staff....

LNW-GW Joint · 10 Oct 2019

I don't know how folk can read anything into the future ICWC menus yet.
The ITT mentioned something about "world class" services.

Hadders · 10 Oct 2019

ainsworth74 said:
Source?

No source, it's a pure guess on my part. I can't see weekend catering being improved, if anything they'll downgrade it, in my view.

If other recent franchises are anything to go by they'll be strapped for cash from day 1 and need to make savings.

West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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