Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

samuelmorris · 29 Sep 2019

Ethano92 said:
I think WiFi should be completely standard across all new units.

Posting this using the WiFi on my SWR 455 rather than use up my data allowance. Furthermore, why should passengers on a 30 min+ commute have to use their 4g the whole way. WiFi is used and should be standard alongside USB/plug points and seat back tables.

You can say there are alternatives but there are also alternatives to plug sockets: power banks which I use most of the time even if my train has plug points, I still think power points should be standard, even in a 710 set up with only a few across the unit.

Not all of us have USB charging on our laptops (get your **** together, Microsoft!) but we do carry mains chargers around with us for our laptops if we expect to work a lot on the move - I also carry a powerbank for my phone regardless but I'd prefer for power sockets to stay on trains where possible thanks - the only stock in my area that had them (Renatus 321s) had them removed, but hey, it was fun while it lasted. I have nothing against WiFi, but it's not something I find as valuable as power sockets. I also struggle to use toilets on a moving vehicle, so honestly, all I want is a seat, a table (seatback will do fine) and a plug socket and I'm good to go for any journey, as long as there are functional toilets at stations.

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Skie · 29 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
Not all of us have USB charging on our laptops

Plain old USB sockets will never power a laptop. They'll barely charge an iPad! The need for a 3 pin socket will remain for a very long time. USB-C with Power Delivery can charge laptops (and many modern phones) these days, but it's asking a bit much to have that rolled out on trains - especially when it's still not a universal standard with 100% compatibility with even the same connectors :/

samuelmorris · 29 Sep 2019

Skie said:
Plain old USB sockets will never power a laptop. They'll barely charge an iPad! The need for a 3 pin socket will remain for a very long time. USB-C with Power Delivery can charge laptops (and many modern phones) these days, but it's asking a bit much to have that rolled out on trains - especially when it's still not a universal standard with 100% compatibility with even the same connectors :/

Indeed, even at 2.1A I imagine the charging speed would be almost nil after usage with an Ultrabook / Surface.

Failed Unit · 29 Sep 2019

Ethano92 said:
My fare didn't increase with SWR retrofitting WiFi to 455s. Neither did southern's 455 users. Are GOBLIN users gonna pay more now that the 710s are in service with WiFi rather than 378s etc? It's not a direct fee anyone is paying, it's just part of 'operational costs'. I've never heard of any backlash from WiFi being on almost all electrostars which share calling points with 700s down on Southern land and Great Northern land, both also GTR franchises. I could say "why should I pay that trace extra for someone else to charge their phone when they could use their own electricity from home" since we both know WiFi is hardly rated at a pence a MB or something.

Toilets are already on all 700s so WiFi hasn't really taken priority. As we know, these toilets affect capacity but WiFi doesn't, it's a harmless extra that isn't gonna add a quid to your fare. How Southern's short metro services can have WiFi but 700s down to Brighton cant makes no sense to me. WiFi is something others may appreciate more than you and others may expect just as much and possibly more than plug sockets.

I don’t know anyone personally that uses wi-fi on the train. I have tried as have many I know - we all find using our phones better service. So I personally struggle to see how it can be considered a priority.

when you look at the 700s the have no seat back tables. (The trains they replaced did so we are going backwards).
No power (not even usb).
So if we are going to improve these trains get the seat back tables done first. Get the trains back to 1990s levels of comfort.

I struggle to see why anyone would want to use on train wi-fi. you don’t know if the TOC is doing deep packet inspection? It doesn’t work in tunnels and not many people don’t have data in there phone contracts anyway.

as for the cost to the TOC it is actually charged at £ per Gb. A real cost. Much higher than the electricity for charging stuff. Seat back tables however do not cost as much to run.

hwl · 29 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
I don’t know anyone personally that uses wi-fi on the train. I have tried as have many I know - we all find using our phones better service. So I personally struggle to see how it can be considered a priority.

when you look at the 700s the have no seat back tables. (The trains they replaced did so we are going backwards).
No power (not even usb).
So if we are going to improve these trains get the seat back tables done first. Get the trains back to 1990s levels of comfort.

I struggle to see why anyone would want to use on train wi-fi. you don’t know if the TOC is doing deep packet inspection? It doesn’t work in tunnels and not many people don’t have data in there phone contracts anyway.

as for the cost to the TOC it is actually charged at £ per Gb. A real cost. Much higher than the electricity for charging stuff. Seat back tables however do not cost as much to run.

The Thameslink rolling stock spec was done in 2006-2007 which doesn't help for being outdated with the 377/5-7 and 387 being spec'd far later.

Failed Unit · 29 Sep 2019

hwl said:
The Thameslink rolling stock spec was done in 2006-2007 which doesn't help for being outdated with the 377/5-7 and 387 being spec'd far later.

Which I understand as WiFi / power were only really on IC stock when this was written. But do you know why seat back tables were left out considering they were standard on most new trains in the 1990s such as the 365?

Dwell time doesn’t seem to make any difference when I consider the 700s can turn up with either.

hwl · 29 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
Which I understand as WiFi / power were only really on IC stock when this was written. But do you know why seat back tables were left out considering they were standard on most new trains in the 1990s such as the 365?

Dwell time doesn’t seem to make any difference when I consider the 700s can turn up with either.

They did some lab experiments with hoards of students and found they had a negative effect on dwell times.

I don't really think we have seen the loadings /time keeping needed to make dwell time critical especially as we don't have ATO & 24tph in operation and are attempting service recovery effectively at 30tph (29seconds doors open) as well as decades of passenger growth.

The 700s aren't even performing as (later) modelled due to the lack of grab holds in the vestibule.

Failed Unit · 29 Sep 2019

hwl said:
They did some lab experiments with hoards of students and found they had a negative effect on dwell times.

I don't really think we have seen the loadings /time keeping needed to make dwell time critical especially as we don't have ATO & 24tph in operation and are attempting service recovery effectively at 30tph (29seconds doors open) as well as decades of passenger growth.

The 700s aren't even performing as (later) modelled due to the lack of grab holds in the vestibule.

must admit I have found that a problem on the 717s as well. Sometimes struggling to find something to hold onto.
One would hope at least for now if 24tph ever happens that the core won’t be as densely loaded as that is another 4 trains to distribute the load.
I will certainly be selecting direct trains if I ever get the chance.

flooble · 30 Sep 2019

Wonder if anyone is in the know, or could at least tell me I'm just going slightly mad

-

The TL 700s (at least on the Horsham/Brighton lines) seem to have started making a different trackside noise in the last couple of days. There's always been the high-pitched UFO-like sound which is pretty quiet, but now they're producing an RPM-linked hum on acceleration and braking, a bit like the Class 377s always did (ish!). It has, sort-of annoyingly, made them twice the volume.

Might be regenerative braking related, or maybe as it's now autumn and something to do with leaves? Or am I imagining it?

Aictos · 30 Sep 2019

Seat back tables are a luxury in that it’s nice to have them but it’s not the end of the world if they don’t exist.

I would rate the need for power sockets and WiFi above seat back tables for the simple reason that power sockets are useful to charge mobile devices etc and WiFi because there are still blackspots that you don’t get any mobile coverage or very poor mobile coverage.

What they ought to do is get on with retro fitting WiFi to the entire Class 700 fleet plus power sockets to standard class before finishing with seat back tables ie have the same spec as Class 717s but with toilets.

ijmad · 30 Sep 2019

This may have been answered months ago but search isn't producing any useful results - I was wondering, are the 700s now travelling through the core under ETCS ATO, or has that still not been fully brought in?

bionic · 30 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
This may have been answered months ago but search isn't producing any useful results - I was wondering, are the 700s now travelling through the core under ETCS ATO, or has that still not been fully brought in?

No. Still running under conventional signals until further notice.

samuelmorris · 30 Sep 2019

flooble said:
Wonder if anyone is in the know, or could at least tell me I'm just going slightly mad -

The TL 700s (at least on the Horsham/Brighton lines) seem to have started making a different trackside noise in the last couple of days. There's always been the high-pitched UFO-like sound which is pretty quiet, but now they're producing an RPM-linked hum on acceleration and braking, a bit like the Class 377s always did (ish!). It has, sort-of annoyingly, made them twice the volume.

Might be regenerative braking related, or maybe as it's now autumn and something to do with leaves? Or am I imagining it?

As far as I'm aware, they've always made such a noise?

flooble · 30 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
As far as I'm aware, they've always made such a noise?

Oh

Maybe it's just me then, or a change around this particular bit of track that's reflecting the noise more. Thanks!

samuelmorris · 30 Sep 2019

There's definitely a tonal sound produced by the units other than the traction motors (which are still audible as a tonal noise themselves from stand) which only really becomes noticeable at above 60mph or so, I assume it's vibrations through the powered bogies, it's the same sort of low-frequency sound that becomes very pronounced on 96 tube stock when at or near maximum speed.

ijmad · 30 Sep 2019

bionic said:
No. Still running under conventional signals until further notice.

I'll go find an infrastructure thread to ask the 'why'...

bionic · 30 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
I'll go find an infrastructure thread to ask the 'why'...

Its nothing to do with the infrastructure. The infrastructure is all in place. The odd train has run through in ATO mode but the vast majority of the drivers haven't been trained up on it.

Failed Unit · 30 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
Seat back tables are a luxury in that it’s nice to have them but it’s not the end of the world if they don’t exist.

I would rate the need for power sockets and WiFi above seat back tables for the simple reason that power sockets are useful to charge mobile devices etc and WiFi because there are still blackspots that you don’t get any mobile coverage or very poor mobile coverage.

What they ought to do is get on with retro fitting WiFi to the entire Class 700 fleet plus power sockets to standard class before finishing with seat back tables ie have the same spec as Class 717s but with toilets.

Seat back tables useful for putting coffee cups, magazines on etc. Safety enhancement that most trains had in the 1990s. If it is missing you have no alternative, but to place things on your knees and risk getting scalded.

wifi - not needed. Alternative use your mobile phone. Expensive gimmick.

power points are useful. But again if it is critical to your journey you have an alternative. You can’t take your own table on a train can you.

do business people care about WiFi. Absolutely not as they use their own 4G connections. Do most people? No. For the same reason then use their package. It may surprise you to know the train uses the same signal as the user. It is going to have the same black spots.

Aictos · 30 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
Seat back tables useful for putting coffee cups, magazines on etc. Safety enhancement that most trains had in the 1990s. If it is missing you have no alternative, but to place things on your knees and risk getting scalded.

Let me refer you back to Post 10387 which explains why seat back tables were not fitted as standard on the Class 700 fleets:

hwl said:
They did some lab experiments with hoards of students and found they had a negative effect on dwell times.

I don't really think we have seen the loadings /time keeping needed to make dwell time critical especially as we don't have ATO & 24tph in operation and are attempting service recovery effectively at 30tph (29seconds doors open) as well as decades of passenger growth.

The 700s aren't even performing as (later) modelled due to the lack of grab holds in the vestibule.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
Seat back tables useful for putting coffee cups, magazines on etc. Safety enhancement that most trains had in the 1990s. If it is missing you have no alternative, but to place things on your knees and risk getting scalded.

wifi - not needed. Alternative use your mobile phone. Expensive gimmick.

power points are useful. But again if it is critical to your journey you have an alternative. You can’t take your own table on a train can you. ...

But coffee isn't critical to anybody's journey. Nice to have maybe for some, (there are people why really can't stand the smell of coffee, - not me but I know some), but I'm pretty sure that coffee is not critical to a journey for any passenger, water in a bottle may well be though. Coffee-cup users are frequently coffee-cup flytippers on Thameslink trains anyway despite there being plenty of some of the largest bins on non inter-city trains in the UK available in every car.

Failed Unit said:
... do business people care about WiFi. Absolutely not as they use their own 4G connections. Do most people? No. For the same reason then use their package. It may surprise you to know the train uses the same signal as the user. It is going to have the same black spots.

I agree with you entirely there. If passengers want internet access whilst on trains for leisure purposes, they should not expect other farepayers to pay for it. If they think that they need it for their work, then it is a business requirement and that (or their) business should ensure adequate data provision in their mobile package. If it is really justified, they can include it as a business expense.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
must admit I have found that a problem on the 717s as well. Sometimes struggling to find something to hold onto.
One would hope at least for now if 24tph ever happens that the core won’t be as densely loaded as that is another 4 trains to distribute the load.
I will certainly be selecting direct trains if I ever get the chance.

The core improvements, additional infrastructure and Thameslink service is not just geared for this year or even the next couple of years when 24tph is fully in operation. The whole Thameslink programme is an upgrade to (hopefully), provide capacity for the next 20-30 years. So if the finer points of streamlining large volumes of passengers isn't apparent now, that doesn't mean those measures aren't necessary well within the life of the current class 700 stock. We may see some modifications to provide more grab holds, but it will have to be compatible with the vestibule design. There are some bendy-buses on the continent with waist-high handrails around part of the turntable that buses have over the coupling. Although the bogied cars move with more of a shear type of action ay the coupling, somebody will no doubt devise something that enables more movement when fully loaded.

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

Ethano92 said:
My fare didn't increase with SWR retrofitting WiFi to 455s. Neither did southern's 455 users. Are GOBLIN users gonna pay more now that the 710s are in service with WiFi rather than 378s etc? It's not a direct fee anyone is paying, it's just part of 'operational costs'. I've never heard of any backlash from WiFi being on almost all electrostars which share calling points with 700s down on Southern land and Great Northern land, both also GTR franchises. I could say "why should I pay that trace extra for someone else to charge their phone when they could use their own electricity from home" since we both know WiFi is hardly rated at a pence a MB or something.

So you haven't noticed thast your fare has increased. Well, somebody's will have to, - maybe that person won't even have wi-fi on their service. Is it fair that they should pay for your wi-fi pleasures?
Toilets are already on all 700s so WiFi hasn't really taken priority. As we know, these toilets affect capacity but WiFi doesn't, it's a harmless extra that isn't gonna add a quid to your fare. How Southern's short metro services can have WiFi but 700s down to Brighton cant makes no sense to me. WiFi is something others may appreciate more than you and others may expect just as much and possibly more than plug sockets.

Wi-fi on some of Southern's stock was introduced before 4G was generally in use and when passengers using it were quite happy to use data at the levels that they would be prepared to pay for on their own contract. Now, much of on-train wi-fi is virtually useless as some passengers expect to be able to play videos/movies and make large downloads because it is free. If wi-fi was throttled to levels that enable essential things to be done, e.g. e-mail/textual messages and normal browsing to be done, it might be practical, but then there would be all of the greedy movie watchers complaining that they cannot survive without hogging the bandwidth.

Aictos · 30 Sep 2019

AM9 said:
But coffee isn't critical to anybody's journey. Nice to have maybe for some, (there are people why really can't stand the smell of coffee, - not me but I know some), but I'm pretty sure that coffee is not critical to a journey for any passenger, water in a bottle may well be though. Coffee-cup users are frequently coffee-cup flytippers on Thameslink trains anyway despite there being plenty of some of the largest bins on non inter-city trains in the UK available in every car.

I quite agree, coffee is certainly not critical!

samuelmorris · 30 Sep 2019

AM9 said:
But coffee isn't critical to anybody's journey. Nice to have maybe for some, (there are people why really can't stand the smell of coffee, - not me but I know some), but I'm pretty sure that coffee is not critical to a journey for any passenger, water in a bottle may well be though. Coffee-cup users are frequently coffee-cup flytippers on Thameslink trains anyway despite there being plenty of some of the largest bins on non inter-city trains in the UK available in every car.

Agreed, I disagree that any lack of provision for a non-essential passengers bring aboard a vehicle is a safety-case. That'd be rather like considering trains not having cigarette lighters and ashtrays a safety issue for people that get withdrawal symptoms. It's a convenience, one that I'm very pleased to find on trains that have it, but not for coffee as I don't drink it, and certainly isn't something I consider safety-critical.

Failed Unit · 30 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
Agreed, I disagree that any lack of provision for a non-essential passengers bring aboard a vehicle is a safety-case. That'd be rather like considering trains not having cigarette lighters and ashtrays a safety issue for people that get withdrawal symptoms. It's a convenience, one that I'm very pleased to find on trains that have it, but not for coffee as I don't drink it, and certainly isn't something I consider safety-critical.

Ok - my safety critical comment was a little over the top. But the fact is not having the seat back tables is a step backwards considering the trains they replaced had them. They are well used when they turn up. But I agree with AM9 that some passengers chose to use them as bins.

Not seen many people who have used the power points in the 717s.

Don’t know anyone used the WiFi. Most journeys are too short to bother with it.

samuelmorris · 30 Sep 2019

Failed Unit said:
Ok - my safety critical comment was a little over the top. But the fact is not having the seat back tables is a step backwards considering the trains they replaced had them. They are well used when they turn up. But I agree with AM9 that some passengers chose to use them as bins.

Not seen many people who have used the power points in the 717s.

Don’t know anyone used the WiFi. Most journeys are too short to bother with it.

This is true but one could argue that the 387/1s were temporary spot-hires, rather than stock ever intended to run on Thameslink, as far as I'm aware no 319s ever had them?

AM9 · 30 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
This is true but one could argue that the 387/1s were temporary spot-hires, rather than stock ever intended to run on Thameslink, as far as I'm aware no 319s ever had them?

Yes that's true. The passenger levels were rising faster than expected and the DfT dithered in ordering the class700s, so a kludge was to get Southern to put them on one of their orders with a (reasonable) hope that the 387s would find another home after the 700s replaced them. The 377/5s were part of the plan to bridge the 319s lack of capacity though.

swt_passenger · 30 Sep 2019

ijmad said:
I'll go find an infrastructure thread to ask the 'why'...

Here’s the latest one from only last week:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ato-on-thameslink.192712/
... and it does emphasise that ATO is available now, but staff are not yet fully trained.

Failed Unit · 30 Sep 2019

samuelmorris said:
This is true but one could argue that the 387/1s were temporary spot-hires, rather than stock ever intended to run on Thameslink, as far as I'm aware no 319s ever had them?

319s no. 365s in great northern yes.

Failed Unit · 30 Sep 2019

Aictos said:
Let me refer you back to Post 10387 which explains why seat back tables were not fitted as standard on the Class 700 fleets:

Which is absolutely nonsense as anyone who USES the service in the peak will tell you.

Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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