Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

Jozhua · 30 Sep 2019

I don't even see much of an issue, Nottingham station is easy to change at and the train sits round it for ages anyway.

I'm sure there will be improvements made to the Liverpool - Notts section that will benefit everyone.

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NoOnesFool · 30 Sep 2019

Catering is likely to change. Currently, catering is offered right from Liverpool to Peterborough. It will not be practical to have Hosts getting off at Nottingham and reloading just to Peterborough, so there will probably be no catering between Nottingham and Norwich.

Jozhua said:
I don't even see much of an issue, Nottingham station is easy to change at and the train sits round it for ages anyway.

I'm sure there will be improvements made to the Liverpool - Notts section that will benefit everyone.

dk1 · 30 Sep 2019

NoOnesFool said:
Catering is likely to change. Currently, catering is offered right from Liverpool to Peterborough. It will not be practical to have Hosts getting off at Nottingham and reloading just to Peterborough, so there will probably be no catering between Nottingham and Norwich.

This was partly why I hoped the eastern part to Norwich might come under GA as catering could be provided from Norwich. Trains tend to busier Westbound on the route early but later in the opposite direction so would've been more beneficial.

Ianno87 · 30 Sep 2019

Jozhua said:
I don't even see much of an issue, Nottingham station is easy to change at and the train sits round it for ages anyway.

I'm sure there will be improvements made to the Liverpool - Notts section that will benefit everyone.

Not everybody who loses a through service will continue to change at Nottingham either. Many will divert via Leeds, Doncaster etc as they're faster.

And those still changing at Nottingham will hopefully find a higher capacity empty train sitting there waiting for them.

VT 390 · 30 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
And those still changing at Nottingham will hopefully find a higher capacity empty train sitting there waiting for them.

I would think this would depend on how long before departure you can board and what the connection times are like, also if 185's do operate the route as has been suggested they could be short formed to 3 carriages. But I do agree with your point.

bunnahabhain · 30 Sep 2019

VT 390 said:
I think the difference is between routes like Plymouth to Dundee and Liverpool to Norwich is that a lot more people will be doing longer journeys on one such as Plymouth to Birmingham or Bristol to Leeds (from what I have seen on seat reservations) than the other and the longer XC routes are usually the quickest route where as Liverpool to Norwich most of the cross Nottingham journeys can be done quicker by going an alternative route.

You'd be surprised how many people do travel through, I worked mid morning service Eastbound today and more than half of the passengers (43 out of 82) onboard had travelled through from stations West of Nottingham.

70014IronDuke · 30 Sep 2019

bunnahabhain said:
You'd be surprised how many people do travel through, I worked mid morning service Eastbound today and more than half of the passengers (43 out of 82) onboard had travelled through from stations West of Nottingham.

Do you ever work the 08.xx ex-Grantham, the one that serves as a commuter service into Nottingham? I've often wondered if many (any?) from the local stations continue on to Sheffield, etc

VT 390 · 30 Sep 2019

bunnahabhain said:
You'd be surprised how many people do travel through, I worked mid morning service Eastbound today and more than half of the passengers (43 out of 82) onboard had travelled through from stations West of Nottingham.

Only 82 west of Nottingham? I though it would be a lot busier than that but obviously not.
I did not realise how many people do travel through Nottingham, and whilst I do accept that these passengers will have an additional change, if it means that longer trains will operate especially Sheffield to Manchester section and any delays around Manchester will not affect services east of Nottingham then I think overall more people will benefit overall even though people travelling through will have to change.

Killingworth · 30 Sep 2019

bunnahabhain said:
You'd be surprised how many people do travel through, I worked mid morning service Eastbound today and more than half of the passengers (43 out of 82) onboard had travelled through from stations West of Nottingham.

I travelled through a couple of years ago to Norwich and was next to a party from the Woodland Trust who went from Manchester to their HQ in Grantham at least once a week. On the other hand, I worked near Norwich Union's offices in Sheffield and know many of their staff made journeys to Norwich. A far as I could tell they went via Doncaster and Peterborough.

Last time I travelled to Grantham on the 8.28 through train from Dore & Totley it took longer than my return via an LNER Azuma to Doncaster, Northern 170 to Sheffield and Pacer. It's a long cross country drive to Norwich

Ianno87 · 30 Sep 2019

70014IronDuke said:
Do you ever work the 08.xx ex-Grantham, the one that serves as a commuter service into Nottingham? I've often wondered if many (any?) from the local stations continue on to Sheffield, etc

That's also the sole train that runs as a 4 car from Norwich each morning? My memory of being on it a couple of times on weekday mornings is basically having the carriage to myself into Nottingham.

Tomnick · 30 Sep 2019

Ianno87 said:
This is the issue when you say "many" people (a very subjective word) travelling West of Sheffield to East of Nottingham.

Very,very many more do not cross-Nottingham at all (e.g. Nottingham-Liverpool, Sheffield-Manchester, Norwich-Peterborough, etc.)

So it's the perverse situation where the service and its operation is planned around the convenience of the minority, to the detriment of the needs of the majority. Tail wagging the dog.

As outlined by tbtc above, splitting the service focuses resources on the service's core market (which is not cross-Nottingham journeys), and the operational focus on getting the Castlefield corridor right.

I'm not counting on a capacity solution for Castlefield any time soon...

I'm not convinced that splitting the service has that many additional benefits for the "core market". It's quite common for mega-late trains from either direction to be restarted right-time from Nottingham, so delays on one half of the route don't necessarily impact on the other side. Not much hope of sorting Castlefield any time soon though, I agree!

dk1 said:
This was partly why I hoped the eastern part to Norwich might come under GA as catering could be provided from Norwich. Trains tend to busier Westbound on the route early but later in the opposite direction so would've been more beneficial.

I'd rather not be looking at the loss of another significant loss of work ta, least of all to achieve something that could presumably be easily achieved under the current regime (if the will was there) anyway!

dk1 · 30 Sep 2019

Tomnick said:
I'd rather not be looking at the loss of another significant loss of work ta, least of all to achieve something that could presumably be easily achieved under the current regime (if the will was there) anyway!

Why would there be loss of work? These things have always happened & on the railway redundancy can be a financially beneficial option.

Tomnick · 30 Sep 2019

dk1 said:
Why would there be loss of work? These things have always happened & on the railway redundancy can be a financially beneficial option.

The loss of work (to Nottingham) from transferring the Liverpool work - alone - elsewhere would probably far outweigh those in a position to voluntarily accept redundancy. The last thing we need is contemplating losing more work on top of that! I know that these things happen, and we're unlikely to influence it by discussing it on here, but it's a sensitive subject for those involved nonetheless...

dk1 · 30 Sep 2019

Tomnick said:
The loss of work (to Nottingham) from transferring the Liverpool work - alone - elsewhere would probably far outweigh those in a position to voluntarily accept redundancy. The last thing we need is contemplating losing more work on top of that! I know that these things happen, and we're unlikely to influence it by discussing it on here, but it's a sensitive subject for those involved nonetheless...

When I say redundancy I don't mean losing your job. Always absorbed as traincrew and usually for the best. Used to love it in BR days and nowt much has changed really

bunnahabhain · 30 Sep 2019

VT 390 said:
Only 82 west of Nottingham? I though it would be a lot busier than that but obviously not.
I did not realise how many people do travel through Nottingham, and whilst I do accept that these passengers will have an additional change, if it means that longer trains will operate especially Sheffield to Manchester section and any delays around Manchester will not affect services east of Nottingham then I think overall more people will benefit overall even though people travelling through will have to change.

Far more alighted at Nottingham than joined, the service itself is incredibly busy into Manchester for commuters so advance purchase tickets are only at their cheapest for travel out of Manchester and beyond, it also has a good connection at Ely for the Ipswich service and those trains do load better with through passengers for obvious reasons.

eastdyke · 1 Oct 2019

bunnahabhain said:
Far more alighted at Nottingham than joined, the service itself is incredibly busy into Manchester for commuters so advance purchase tickets are only at their cheapest for travel out of Manchester and beyond, it also has a good connection at Ely for the Ipswich service and those trains do load better with through passengers for obvious reasons.

Sadly the Peterborough-Ely-Ipswich is to remain 1tp2h for the foreseeable, vice the 1tph anticipated by the GA FA. And, whilst the connection at Ely is good going to Ipswich, it is around a 50min wait for the return connection :frown:

.

bunnahabhain · 1 Oct 2019

eastdyke said:
Sadly the Peterborough-Ely-Ipswich is to remain 1tp2h for the foreseeable, vice the 1tph anticipated by the GA FA. And, whilst the connection at Ely is good going to Ipswich, it is around a 50min wait for the return connection .

I should imagine it wouldbe somewhat popular to fill such a gap with a 1 per 2 hour split off the Liverpool to Norwich service, based on how many people utilise the 08/10/12/1434 services from Nottingham to Bury and Ipswich locales. Again today we have an almost similar but slightly lower number of through West to East passenger loading.

VT 390 · 1 Oct 2019

bunnahabhain said:
I should imagine it wouldbe somewhat popular to fill such a gap with a 1 per 2 hour split off the Liverpool to Norwich service, based on how many people utilise the 08/10/12/1434 services from Nottingham to Bury and Ipswich locales. Again today we have an almost similar but slightly lower number of through West to East passenger loading.

As the Norwich part of the route will be 170 operated eventually (as all EMR regional services will be) would it be as easy to split/join services?

edwin_m · 1 Oct 2019

VT 390 said:
As the Norwich part of the route will be 170 operated eventually (as all EMR regional services will be) would it be as easy to split/join services?

If the timetable misses the connection now in one direction, then a re-cast would be needed to allow splitting/joining just as it would to make the connection work. In view of the number of interactions both services have with other routes, that would probably be very difficult. And the split of the service at Nottingham is unlikely to help much.

I was stuck at Ely a few years ago for 59min in November (in the then timetable) on the way back from Ipswich a few years ago - very cold and miserable with most of the facilities closed even in the early evening. Having to do the trip again a few months ago I found that overriding the default selection gave me an Advance changing at Peterborough. As well as being a shorter wait (due to the Ipswich train making more stops after Ely) at somewhere slightly less unpleasant it was cheaper too!

tbtc · 1 Oct 2019

In BR days, there were a variety of eastern termini. Harwich/ Ipswich/ Norwich/ Cambridge (and Stansted?)... there were services running via Nottingham and Loughborough (and some avoiding Sheffield, and the hourly service from East Anglia to Merseyside through the West Midlands)... and there were a variety of western termini (Liverpool, Blackpool, Cumbria)... the move to simpler timetables and the "simplicity" of privatisation simplified these... the later Central Trains changes fixed the Hope Valley service to run from Norwich (with all of the Cambridge/Stansted services running through to Birmingham).

The problem that the railway has is the balance between hundreds of different flows and trying to maintain a simple reliable timetable for regular passengers (e.g. the desire for a service at the same time each hour from Liverpool to Manchester or from Nottingham to Sheffield).

I know some people who moved from Norfolk to Sheffield when Norwich Union opened up here (people who do go back to see family etc in East Anglia from time to time)... I know people from East Anglian who came to University here (and I'm sure the same is true of Manchester/ Liverpool)... but are there enough people to justify a through service? For me, I'd rather have a service to Cambridge/Stansted, but we lost that when Central Trains was split up. I'm sure some would want an Ipswich train instead. And the same at the western end (I'd find a Blackpool or Cumbrian link useful, though I probably wouldn't use it more than once a year, so appreciate that my personal preference is an irrelevance!).

Ultimately, you're going to disappoint a lot of people whatever you do. You could have a complicated timetable where the Hope Valley service runs bi-hourly to Norwich and bi-hourly to Cambridge (with the Birmingham service similarly running bi-hourly to those places), but then that'd mean accepting a 30/90/30/90 split from Peterborough to Norwich/ Cambridge which would mean prioritising a small number of long distance passengers over the larger number of people doing short distance journeys.

Plenty of other cross-country (=/= XC) links have been lost over the years without as much fuss - I guess that some of the complaints about this cut are because the Norwich - Liverpool service is one of the few such routes left - a corridor leftover from BR that doesn't neatly fit into TOC boundaries. But if it means getting five coach TPE trains through Sheffield then the loss of a Norwich link is a price worth paying for me (and inconveniencing the people I know who travel back to Norfolk once a year is a price worth paying to benefit the people I know who commute daily from Chesterfield/ Manchester/ Stockport to work where I do, or the people I know who commute from Sheffield to Manchester/ Nottingham).

bspahh · 1 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
I was stuck at Ely a few years ago for 59min in November (in the then timetable) on the way back from Ipswich a few years ago - very cold and miserable with most of the facilities closed even in the early evening.

I don't need to hang around Ely station after hours. It was short-staffed a few years ago. Nowadays, the ticket office is usually open until 8pm, and the toilets are open later than that.

There is also a Tesco nextdoor which opens at 6am on a Monday morning and closes at midnight on a Saturday.

edwin_m · 1 Oct 2019

bspahh said:
I don't need to hang around Ely station after hours. It was short-staffed a few years ago. Nowadays, the ticket office is usually open until 8pm, and the toilets are open later than that.

There is also a Tesco nextdoor which opens at 6am on a Monday morning and closes at midnight on a Saturday.

I think I'd get some odd looks if I hung around in the ticket office, even more so in the toilets. I don't remember if the waiting room was open but if so it would have been cold and draughty. With no facilities on the station I did go into the Tesco to get something to eat, but I don't think it had a café (otherwise I would have used it). Peterborough has a couple of Pumpkin-type places and a Waitrose just outside, with larger waiting rooms.

bspahh · 1 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
I think I'd get some odd looks if I hung around in the ticket office, even more so in the toilets. I don't remember if the waiting room was open but if so it would have been cold and draughty. With no facilities on the station I did go into the Tesco to get something to eat, but I don't think it had a café (otherwise I would have used it). Peterborough has a couple of Pumpkin-type places and a Waitrose just outside, with larger waiting rooms.

There are two waiting rooms. One is on the island platforms 2 & 3, with a cafe which is probably closed in the evening. The other is on platform 1, next to the door to the ticket hall (in the direction of the old level crossing). Platform 1 has a newsagents (with a coffee machine), a coffee kiosk and a cafe. The Tesco has a Costa coffee, but it shuts at ~7pm. After that, the closest pub is the Cutter. Its a 6 minute walk away https://goo.gl/maps/7R85vfFNxC7jBSch8

Ianno87 · 1 Oct 2019

tbtc said:
In BR days, there were a variety of eastern termini. Harwich/ Ipswich/ Norwich/ Cambridge (and Stansted?)... there were services running via Nottingham and Loughborough (and some avoiding Sheffield, and the hourly service from East Anglia to Merseyside through the West Midlands)... and there were a variety of western termini (Liverpool, Blackpool, Cumbria)... the move to simpler timetables and the "simplicity" of privatisation simplified these... the later Central Trains changes fixed the Hope Valley service to run from Norwich (with all of the Cambridge/Stansted services running through to Birmingham).

The problem that the railway has is the balance between hundreds of different flows and trying to maintain a simple reliable timetable for regular passengers (e.g. the desire for a service at the same time each hour from Liverpool to Manchester or from Nottingham to Sheffield).

I know some people who moved from Norfolk to Sheffield when Norwich Union opened up here (people who do go back to see family etc in East Anglia from time to time)... I know people from East Anglian who came to University here (and I'm sure the same is true of Manchester/ Liverpool)... but are there enough people to justify a through service? For me, I'd rather have a service to Cambridge/Stansted, but we lost that when Central Trains was split up. I'm sure some would want an Ipswich train instead. And the same at the western end (I'd find a Blackpool or Cumbrian link useful, though I probably wouldn't use it more than once a year, so appreciate that my personal preference is an irrelevance!).

Ultimately, you're going to disappoint a lot of people whatever you do. You could have a complicated timetable where the Hope Valley service runs bi-hourly to Norwich and bi-hourly to Cambridge (with the Birmingham service similarly running bi-hourly to those places), but then that'd mean accepting a 30/90/30/90 split from Peterborough to Norwich/ Cambridge which would mean prioritising a small number of long distance passengers over the larger number of people doing short distance journeys.

Plenty of other cross-country (=/= XC) links have been lost over the years without as much fuss - I guess that some of the complaints about this cut are because the Norwich - Liverpool service is one of the few such routes left - a corridor leftover from BR that doesn't neatly fit into TOC boundaries. But if it means getting five coach TPE trains through Sheffield then the loss of a Norwich link is a price worth paying for me (and inconveniencing the people I know who travel back to Norfolk once a year is a price worth paying to benefit the people I know who commute daily from Chesterfield/ Manchester/ Stockport to work where I do, or the people I know who commute from Sheffield to Manchester/ Nottingham).

Basic problem with Liverpool-Norwich is that it has become out of date. It was relevant when London-Manchester was 1tph and takke 2hours 30/40minutes, and when the ECML had two long distance trains per hour (not 5).

The capacity, journey times and frequency of the WCML and ECML have improved vastly (sucking up East-North West flows that way), so that gap the Liverpool-Norwich service fills has got decidedly narrower over the last quarter century.

ashkeba · 1 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
Basic problem with Liverpool-Norwich is that it has become out of date. It was relevant when London-Manchester was 1tph and takke 2hours 30/40minutes, and when the ECML had two long distance trains per hour (not 5).

The capacity, journey times and frequency of the WCML and ECML have improved vastly (sucking up East-North West flows that way), so that gap the Liverpool-Norwich service fills has got decidedly narrower over the last quarter century.

So surely the logical move is for the East-NW Rail link to be improved after decades of missing out, not axed to push even more people through London! I really do not understand the lack of national network strategy in the UK, especially as London does not even have any through Intercity trains with all the through routes being filled with Regional (Thameslink) and Stopper trains (NLL, WLL, ELL, soon XR and some on Thameslink too) and the HS1-2 link being strangled at birth.

It is rather amazing that EWR still plods on when its northern cousin is being killed off.

VT 390 · 1 Oct 2019

ashkeba said:
So surely the logical move is for the East-NW Rail link to be improved after decades of missing out, not axed to push even more people through London! I really do not understand the lack of national network strategy in the UK, especially as London does not even have any through Intercity trains with all the through routes being filled with Regional (Thameslink) and Stopper trains (NLL, WLL, ELL, soon XR and some on Thameslink too) and the HS1-2 link being strangled at birth.

It is rather amazing that EWR still plods on when its northern cousin is being killed off.

But there would have to be some major journey time reductions on routes like Liverpool to Norwich for it to compete with journey times via London, especially after/if HS2 is built.
Although not Liverpool to Norwich if East West rail is built with high line speeds it should help some cross London journeys transfer away from London.

Llandudno · 1 Oct 2019

Liverpool/Warrington/Manchester to Norwich May be quicker via London but it does mean travelling on the London Underground to connect between Euston and Liverpool Street, not much fun at rush hour or travelling with luggage.

I suspect the fares charged especially at Peak times via London will be significantly higher than the through EMR fares.

Be careful what you wish for....

Killingworth · 1 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Liverpool/Warrington/Manchester to Norwich May be quicker via London but it does mean travelling on the London Underground to connect between Euston and Liverpool Street, not much fun at rush hour or travelling with luggage.

I suspect the fares charged especially at Peak times via London will be significantly higher than the through EMR fares.

Be careful what you wish for....

Journey times are only 10-20 minutes quicker for a journey of over 5 hours from Liverpool to Norwich via London against direct, but will usually cost more than twice as much. That's the case for tomorrow.

Ianno87 · 1 Oct 2019

Killingworth said:
Journey times are only 10-20 minutes quicker for a journey of over 5 hours from Liverpool to Norwich via London against direct, but will usually cost more than twice as much. That's the case for tomorrow.

But consider it's 5-odd hours on a single direct train with limited catering or other facilities.

Or 4-odd hours spread on two trains (plus a Tube) with opportunity for fresh air, a leg stretch and a sandwich/coffee in London. For such a length of journey, that can be appealing.

Killingworth · 1 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
But consider it's 5-odd hours on a single direct train with limited catering or other facilities.

Or 4-odd hours spread on two trains (plus a Tube) with opportunity for fresh air, a leg stretch and a sandwich/coffee in London. For such a length of journey, that can be appealing.

8.47 £171.00 single via London 2 changes arriving 13.50 Journey time 5:03 Hopefully 30 minutes at Liverpool Street for a break and better catering on mainline trains

8.52 £48.40 single direct arriving 14.13 Journey time 5:21 All on one train with limited catering

8.56 £107.10 single via Leeds and Peterborough arriving 14.13 (same train) Journey time 5:19 with time for half hour breaks at both

3 options each hour with maximum 22 minutes difference in total journey time, but big differences in fares.

I agree, 5 hours on a 158 going, literally, backwards and forwards (reverses at Sheffield and Ely) might push me to the via Leeds option. The price would deter me from via London.

Liverpool Norwich service to be split at Nottingham

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