Typical (?) issue - please advice - very stressed

User84892811 · 30 Sep 2019

Hi,

Thank you for your time reading this/providing advice in advance...

Was travelling on Southwest train service to Waterloo. A service I take very regularly and have a long record of buying tickets - using Trainline app. Would usually buy the ticket on the app while waiting on the platform, occasionally would buy it just after boarding the train. Did this for over a year now almost every week with no problems. However this time had a difficult few days and was deep in my thoughts as I boarded the train and only realised I didn’t have a ticket yet at Vauxhall (1 stop before Waterloo). Simply forgot to buy one which is 100% my fault. Opened the app which suggested Vauxhall and without thinking just got the ticket and continued on my journey.

Upon arrival realised the ticket I purchased didn’t have the usual QR code and instead had the collection code. I approached a member of staff asking if I can get out on this basis or if there is anywhere I can print out the ticket before barriers. He asked where I travelled from and I said Vauxhall as stated on the ticket. I said this as I was thinking it would be confusing if I said something else. Indeed this just made things worse as the member of stuff turned out to be a revenue protection officer and he said that I will now be facing criminal offence. When he asked where I really travelled from I stated the correct station and provided all further details truthfully. When he asked why I didn’t buy the ticket I said I had no logical explanation.

Of course retrospectively I realise this was wrong and that the ticket I bought only covered a part of my journey. Also now I realise I made things worse by saying I travelled from Vauxhall the first time this was asked. After that I said everything as it was and mentioned that I admit to this and more than happy to pay any fine. However at the time I made this mistake I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong and was certainly not avoiding the fare - it’s only a few pounds difference (I didn’t even realise there was a difference before this) and I was not looking to avoid paying that - indeed I paid that loads of times as I travelled previously. This was the first time I bought a wrong ticket.

The revenue protection officer was polite and I was polite with him too (indeed helping him to read my details off my driving licence in dim light and double checking he got my address etc correctly). He wrote down my name, address, details of the situation and said that I will be receiving a letter, which I am now extremely stressed about. It seems from browsing this forum that this letter is likely to be a slap on the wrist and an c£80 fine which I am happy to pay. My biggest fear is criminal record of course particularly given that the first time I was asked where I travelled from I said Vauxhall (again - this is not because I wanted to avoid paying the correct fare or anything - but rather thought this would speed up the process and avoid confusion. After asked the second or any consequent time I gave correct details).

Please could you advice:
- What is the letter likely to contain and when is it likely to arrive?
- Is it likely that I will be summoned to court given the details and that I have never committed such (or indeed any other) offence? I offered to pay any fare or fine on the spot and still happy to do so.
- What else shall I do in the meantime to relief stress of potential criminal record?!

Thank you so much in advance.

RailUK Forums

WesternLancer · 30 Sep 2019

User84892811 said:
Hi,

Thank you for your time reading this/providing advice in advance...

Was travelling on Southwest train service to Waterloo. A service I take very regularly and have a long record of buying tickets - using Trainline app. Would usually buy the ticket on the app while waiting on the platform, occasionally would buy it just after boarding the train. Did this for over a year now almost every week with no problems. However this time had a difficult few days and was deep in my thoughts as I boarded the train and only realised I didn’t have a ticket yet at Vauxhall (1 stop before Waterloo). Simply forgot to buy one which is 100% my fault. Opened the app which suggested Vauxhall and without thinking just got the ticket and continued on my journey.

Upon arrival realised the ticket I purchased didn’t have the usual QR code and instead had the collection code. I approached a member of staff asking if I can get out on this basis or if there is anywhere I can print out the ticket before barriers. He asked where I travelled from and I said Vauxhall as stated on the ticket. I said this as I was thinking it would be confusing if I said something else. Indeed this just made things worse as the member of stuff turned out to be a revenue protection officer and he said that I will now be facing criminal offence. When he asked where I really travelled from I stated the correct station and provided all further details truthfully. When he asked why I didn’t buy the ticket I said I had no logical explanation.

Of course retrospectively I realise this was wrong and that the ticket I bought only covered a part of my journey. Also now I realise I made things worse by saying I travelled from Vauxhall the first time this was asked. After that I said everything as it was and mentioned that I admit to this and more than happy to pay any fine. However at the time I made this mistake I didn’t think I was doing anything wrong and was certainly not avoiding the fare - it’s only a few pounds difference (I didn’t even realise there was a difference before this) and I was not looking to avoid paying that - indeed I paid that loads of times as I travelled previously. This was the first time I bought a wrong ticket.

The revenue protection officer was polite and I was polite with him too (indeed helping him to read my details off my driving licence in dim light and double checking he got my address etc correctly). He wrote down my name, address, details of the situation and said that I will be receiving a letter, which I am now extremely stressed about. It seems from browsing this forum that this letter is likely to be a slap on the wrist and an c£80 fine which I am happy to pay. My biggest fear is criminal record of course particularly given that the first time I was asked where I travelled from I said Vauxhall (again - this is not because I wanted to avoid paying the correct fare or anything - but rather thought this would speed up the process and avoid confusion. After asked the second or any consequent time I gave correct details).

Please could you advice:
- What is the letter likely to contain and when is it likely to arrive?
- Is it likely that I will be summoned to court given the details and that I have never committed such (or indeed any other) offence? I offered to pay any fare or fine on the spot and still happy to do so.
- What else shall I do in the meantime to relief stress of potential criminal record?!

Thank you so much in advance.

No doubt you will get some good advice here on those questions. I think you will just have to wait a few weeks for the letter they will send, see what it says and then head back here for any more advice as required. It would help if you stated the journey details in full - eg where did you actually get on for example - as that would indicate the level of 'short fare' that you mistakenly attempted to buy, and thus what will look like the seriousness of the offence in terms of fare avoided - eg probably a bit different if you got on at Clapham Jct compared to if you got on at Guildford etc.

More generally please note that by getting on the train and THEN buying a ticket - as you say you occasionally do - you are in fact committing an offence if there was any ability to buy one at the station before boarding (indeed a criminal one AFAIK). Never do this.

Also - it's your choice, but I'd never buy from trainline. If you travel with SWR buy from them.

FenMan · 1 Oct 2019

Also - it's your choice, but I'd never buy from trainline. If you travel with SWR buy from them.

This needs an explanation. Trainline normally (but not always) levy extra charges when buying a ticket, presumably to fund their TV advertising. To avoid the extra cost it has been longstanding advice on this forum to purchase tickets directly from one of the train companies (TOCs).

najaB · 1 Oct 2019

Let's apply DaveNewcastle's four item checklist to the OP's case:

They always buy a ticket, this was the one time that they didn't. Check.
They unexpectedly happened to encounter a revenue enforcement officer. Check.
When questioned, they named a station other than the one at which they actually boarded. Check.
The fare from that station was less than the fare from the station where they started their journey. Check.

So while you may not have been trying to evade a fare is certainly *looks* that way.

You'll likely recieve a letter in the next couple of weeks laying out the charge that you might face. I could see either a simple Byelaw charge or a more serious Regulation of Railways Act charge (since paying a short fare can be taken as clear evidence of trying to avoid paying the correct fare).

Equally, they might decide to offer a simple settlement right out of the gate.

Once we know what you're up against (if anything) we can propose a plan of action.

User84892811 · 1 Oct 2019

@WesternLancer

Thank you so much.
Where I got on - Oxshott station. So quite far from Waterloo.
Buying a ticket after boarding - genuinely did not know. For now certainly learnt my lesson and will not even come close to a platform without one in hand.
Trainline - use it for convenience as it covers all companies and has easy interface. Also remembers where I usually travel and I think uses my location to help buy tickets faster. This time this worked against me though. Going forward will be using ticket machines for a physical ticket though.

@FenMan thank you. not sure what the pricing is on Trainline but would not mind paying extra as it’s very convenient. Not trying to save money on tickets despite what the revenue protection officer might think...

@najaB thank you so much for you reply. Yes it does look that way although I never had such intention. I pray for an out of court settlement. So is there a template of the letter they sent? Or is each case treated individually? Do we know how long it takes?

All;
Also - I mentioned that I had a difficult few days and as such my mind was not focusing on buying tickets before I board etc. This is because I had to call an ambulance for a loved one the day before. Spent almost 11 hours waiting in A&E. Went to hospital again the next day and took this train shortly after leaving the hospital in the evening. Had to skip a day of work because of this which I never done before in my life so was stressed for that reason too. As I hope you would understand my legs walked me to the train but my mind was elsewhere. Only before it was time to disembark soon I “woke up” from my thoughts and realised I was yet to buy a ticket. Immediately took out my phone and again without thinking tapped on the screen until it gave me some sort of a ticket and proceeded without even realising I did something wrong.

Not sure how this will be seen by the company if the ask for details... Would they understand? If not - would the courts understand? Of course there is a record of ambulance being called out and record of me personally spending most of the previous 2 days at a hospital. But again - not sure this is relevant and anyone would care?

Thank you so much in advance.

Haywain · 1 Oct 2019

Adding to previous comments, you just have to sit tight and wait for a letter from the train company for now. The good news is that you are dealing with South Western Railway who, based on past accounts here, are likely to settle out of court rather than go all out for prosecution. As for the circumstances, the train company will see that you didn't buy a ticket before travelling and then "short fared" - the fact that it is the first time or that there were possible extenuating circumstances is unlikely to make much difference to them. Just concentrate on the facts around the ticket purchase when you communicate back to them and accept that you were at fault.

WesternLancer · 1 Oct 2019

FenMan said:
This needs an explanation. Trainline normally (but not always) levy extra charges when buying a ticket, presumably to fund their TV advertising. To avoid the extra cost it has been longstanding advice on this forum to purchase tickets directly from one of the train companies (TOCs).

Thanks - sorry, I posted in haste and should have explained.

WesternLancer · 1 Oct 2019

User84892811 said:
@WesternLancer

Thank you so much.
Where I got on - Oxshott station. So quite far from Waterloo.
Buying a ticket after boarding - genuinely did not know. For now certainly learnt my lesson and will not even come close to a platform without one in hand.
Trainline - use it for convenience as it covers all companies and has easy interface. Also remembers where I usually travel and I think uses my location to help buy tickets faster. This time this worked against me though. Going forward will be using ticket machines for a physical ticket though.

@FenMan thank you. not sure what the pricing is on Trainline but would not mind paying extra as it’s very convenient. Not trying to save money on tickets despite what the revenue protection officer might think...

@najaB thank you so much for you reply. Yes it does look that way although I never had such intention. I pray for an out of court settlement. So is there a template of the letter they sent? Or is each case treated individually? Do we know how long it takes?

All;
Also - I mentioned that I had a difficult few days and as such my mind was not focusing on buying tickets before I board etc. This is because I had to call an ambulance for a loved one the day before. Spent almost 11 hours waiting in A&E. Went to hospital again the next day and took this train shortly after leaving the hospital in the evening. Had to skip a day of work because of this which I never done before in my life so was stressed for that reason too. As I hope you would understand my legs walked me to the train but my mind was elsewhere. Only before it was time to disembark soon I “woke up” from my thoughts and realised I was yet to buy a ticket. Immediately took out my phone and again without thinking tapped on the screen until it gave me some sort of a ticket and proceeded without even realising I did something wrong.

Not sure how this will be seen by the company if the ask for details... Would they understand? If not - would the courts understand? Of course there is a record of ambulance being called out and record of me personally spending most of the previous 2 days at a hospital. But again - not sure this is relevant and anyone would care?

Thank you so much in advance.

Thanks User - good luck with it all, as clearly 'it's not what you need' at the present time. My hunch is that your extenuating circs might help them decide to offer a simple settlement with you, but as other posts allude, you can see how it looks from their point of view. Other will no doubt comment, but do be sure to keep an eye on your thread here and also when you get the letter post a redacted copy or synopsis if you can for more advice from forum members. Have a look at some past threads where you will see a few typical letters and outcomes if that gives you some peace of mind in the mean time.

Also - what time were you travelling (off peak / peak etc) as that gives an idea of the fare you 'avoided'.

Haywain · 1 Oct 2019

WesternLancer said:
Also - what time were you travelling (off peak / peak etc) as that gives an idea of the fare you 'avoided'.

The OP alludes to buying 7-day seasons, so the fare avoided is the same regardless of time and, in any case, I can't see that it will make any difference to SWR.

najaB · 1 Oct 2019

User84892811 said:
Where I got on - Oxshott station. So quite far from Waterloo.

Considering the stations involved:

Oxshott to Waterloo - £8.50 (Anytime single) / seven stations / time on train 37 minutes
Vauxhall to Waterloo - £3.20 (Anytime single) / one station / time on train 4 minutes

Again, I'm not saying that you were trying to avoid paying your fare, but that is a heck of a mistake to make. Both in not noticing that the fare was less than half what it should have been, and also in naming a station that happened to be the closest (and cheapest) ticket that would get you through the barriers at Waterloo.

najaB · 1 Oct 2019

User84892811 said:
Also remembers where I usually travel and I think uses my location to help buy tickets faster.

Is the Trainline app not one that allows you to easily make repeat purchases? If so, wouldn't it have been easier to just click "Buy again" or whatever the option is?

User84892811 · 1 Oct 2019

Haywain said:
Adding to previous comments, you just have to sit tight and wait for a letter from the train company for now. The good news is that you are dealing with South Western Railway who, based on past accounts here, are likely to settle out of court rather than go all out for prosecution. As for the circumstances, the train company will see that you didn't buy a ticket before travelling and then "short fared" - the fact that it is the first time or that there were possible extenuating circumstances is unlikely to make much difference to them. Just concentrate on the facts around the ticket purchase when you communicate back to them and accept that you were at fault.

Thank you for your reply. Yes I see what you mean. Was not going deny the fact that I am at fault and indeed the moment I spoke to the member of staff and he asked where I really travelled from I admitted to the mistake and was co operating and happy to pay any fine (still am as long as there is no criminal record).

User84892811 · 1 Oct 2019

WesternLancer said:
Thanks User - good luck with it all, as clearly 'it's not what you need' at the present time. My hunch is that your extenuating circs might help them decide to offer a simple settlement with you, but as other posts allude, you can see how it looks from their point of view. Other will no doubt comment, but do be sure to keep an eye on your thread here and also when you get the letter post a redacted copy or synopsis if you can for more advice from forum members. Have a look at some past threads where you will see a few typical letters and outcomes if that gives you some peace of mind in the mean time.

Also - what time were you travelling (off peak / peak etc) as that gives an idea of the fare you 'avoided'.

Thank you. Will certainly keep this updated when I receive the letter. Least I could do to thank everyone for the support and hopefully provide more clarity for those facing this in the future.

But yes - completely understand how it looks from their side (only realised this retrospectively) so happy to co operate with SW and ensure this doesn’t happen again. This is about as much as I can do really...

Fare was off-peak I believe (not sure? I just always bought tickets that my app suggested - I know this is stupid) and @najaB provided the correct breakdown now that I checked it.

User84892811 · 1 Oct 2019

najaB said:
Considering the stations involved:

Oxshott to Waterloo - £8.50 (Anytime single) / seven stations / time on train 37 minutes

Vauxhall to Waterloo - £3.20 (Anytime single) / one station / time on train 4 minutes

Again, I'm not saying that you were trying to avoid paying your fare, but that is a heck of a mistake to make. Both in not noticing that the fare was less than half what it should have been, and also in naming a station that happened to be the closest (and cheapest) ticket that would get you through the barriers at Waterloo.

Thank you. Agreed completely with you.

When paying on Trainline I pay using Apple Pay so the fare is shown amongst a million other things (which card I’m using, contact details, etc). Had I looked at it carefully I would have noticed it was a lot lower and probably would have changed my mind. But I wasn’t in a state to look for details at the time and just tapped the phone repeatedly until it gave me a ticket. Is it a valid excuse? No. But at the time I simply wasn’t thinking about it.

User84892811 · 1 Oct 2019

najaB said:
Is the Trainline app not one that allows you to easily make repeat purchases? If so, wouldn't it have been easier to just click "Buy again" or whatever the option is?

Thank you. I always open the app, it by default takes me to “search” tab where I select “from” and “to” stations. It usually has something in there by default. This time it had Vauxhall - I guess because I was at Vauxhall just before selecting the tickets or my previous search was to Vauxhall. I just tapped “find times” and then tapped on the first available train (which was in the future as well) and “buy”. That’s it.

User84892811 · 25 Oct 2019

Hi all,

A little update on the matter - all now resolved positively.

Received a letter about 3 weeks after the incident. The letter explained that SWR believe they have enough evidence to take me to court. However, given this was the first time this occurred they offered to settle out of court, for just under £100. The letter stated that should this occur again, out of court settlement will no longer be an option.

In order to accept the out of court settlement offer I had to sign a short form and post it back to them. No letter explaining my situation was required. After I allowed a few days for the form to arrive to SWR in post, I gave them a call and made a payment over the phone.

So thankfully no criminal record, particularly given that this was an honest mistake. However certainly will be a lot more careful from now on.

Hopefully this information will help to whoever is next in the same situation..

And thank you again for everyone’s support and advice @WesternLancer @najaB @Haywain

najaB · 25 Oct 2019

User84892811 said:
So thankfully no criminal record, particularly given that this was an honest mistake. However certainly will be a lot more careful from now on.

Thanks for the update. I'm glad you've been able to resolve this without it going to court.

Haywain · 25 Oct 2019

User84892811 said:
Hopefully this information will help to whoever is next in the same situation..

Thanks for the update, glad it worked out OK for you.

WesternLancer · 27 Oct 2019

Thanks for the report back.

Typical (?) issue - please advice - very stressed

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