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WCML New Rolling Stock Discussion

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LNW-GW Joint

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They are booked to operate a large proportion of the London - West Midlands - Scotland services (to Glasgow & Edinburgh alike), and the "semi-fast" Blackpool North services in the early morning/late evening. Also the West Midlands diagrams that start/end at Shrewsbury, but have London - Birmingham services in between.
AIUI, no Manchester, Liverpool, fast Blackpool or Glasgow (via Trent Valley) services are booked for Voyagers.

Plus the Euston-Chester-Holyhead/Wrexham services under the wires south of Crewe, one of which starts/ends at Birmingham.
Also an ECS Central Rivers-Chester under the wires between Lichfield and Crewe.
There are usually 9 units on Chester/North Wales/Blackpool services and 9 on Scotland/Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Euston services (they interwork).
That leaves a couple for spare/maintenance.
 
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jayiscupid

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Latest issue of Modern Railways states that it will be 13 five-car Bi modes and 10 five-car EMUs. My money would be on Hitachi for both giving you the option of mixing the two fleets to split at Crewe/Preston but only using one path. However, Roger Ford says the new EMUs are assumed to be CAF 397s. (pages 31/32 Modern Railways October edition).


It seems CAF is now offering a bi-mode option based on their bogied DMUs (previously offered on their continental articulated EMUs).

Could we be seeing them providing 397s and a bi-mode based on a 397 for First/Trenitalia?

https://www.railjournal.com/fleet/nsw-chooses-bi-mode-option-for-regional-train-replacement/
 
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Oh dear this from "City Am".... it looks.like more 800 Hitachi series trains on the way this time, was hoping for 397's like TPE. Maybe it's just speculation.

https://www.cityam.com/hitachi-closes-in-on-200m-west-coast-franchise-deal/

"Hitachi is said to be close to clinching a £200m deal to overhaul trains and carriages on the West Coast Main Line.

The award would come as a blow to struggling Canadian rival Bombardier, which was also pipped to the post by Hitachi on a £400m deal to build dozens of trains in the East Midlands just weeks ago"
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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Oh for GOODNESS sake. If this is true, First really are on a mission to send Britain’s railways down the pan. :(
 

tbtc

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Excellent news, if true - means we get to keep a supply line of IET300s going, permitting additional orders for the ECML/ MML/ GWML and TransPennine (rather than the problems we've had in the past where the production line of stock like Voyagers/ 185s finished and we had no chance of extending the existing trains or buying new ones).

One massive fleet of similar (albeit not *identical*) trains should also mean that they have more of a scope for a longer life (rather than the microfleets that face an uncertain future)
 

Bletchleyite

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Excellent news, if true - means we get to keep a supply line of IET300s going, permitting additional orders for the ECML/ MML/ GWML and TransPennine (rather than the problems we've had in the past where the production line of stock like Voyagers/ 185s finished and we had no chance of extending the existing trains or buying new ones).

One massive fleet of similar (albeit not *identical*) trains should also mean that they have more of a scope for a longer life (rather than the microfleets that face an uncertain future)

For the record I'd be totally happy with 80x - I've advocated them to replace Voyagers for a while - I'd just rather they had a better design of seat (I haven't mentioned Gr**mer for a bit, have I? :D) and a buffet counter. Oh, and luggage racks in place of the "blank wall" seats.

FWIW, though, I'd say it would be better to have one fleet of bi-modes for added diversionary flexibility (i.e. no EMUs) - particularly in light of this RRB related legal advice which might make things like diversions via the S&C once again on the table.
 

BillBlue80

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Still slightly confused by the wording of this report. The Pendolino fleet is to undergo a full refurbishment, which was estimated to cost £117 million in the franchise award. No mention is made in these reports of this being an order for new trains. I thought that Alstom at Widnes was the most likely candidate to carry out the refurbishment on these trains. I hadn’t realised that Hitachi offered the service in the U.K. of refurbishing other manufacturers trains.

I’d imagine the likelihood is that this deal would mean that the new trains would be Class 800 stock. I thought they had specifically specified the order would be 13 Bimode and 10 EMU. I don’t think 13 Bi mode (with no likely future West Coast order and from the other main IC franchises) would justify the costs in creating a bimode derivative of the CAF 397. Especially as new CAF stock has had far from a smooth introduction into service in the U.K. They can be fairly confident that a mature Class 802 from Hitachi (which it certainly will be by 2022) provides little risk. From a leasing perspective the Hitachi Class 802’s must be much more attractive as they are not a small sub fleet and can easily be redeployed across the network, if West Coast ever stop using them.
 
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zn1

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since Hitachi are assembling their Low power bi power 125 Bullet things at Newton Ayecliffe,surely the most sensible option is tag an order on the end and have a fleet of them, make them compatiable with the rest of them - so GWR/LNER IEPS are all inter operable, rather than go to caf and the rest of the foreign companies, The TOCS may and Roscos may as well buy Jap Technology. at least its assembled in britain...
 

Bletchleyite

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Still slightly confused by the wording of this report. The Pendolino fleet is to undergo a full refurbishment, which was estimated to cost £117 million in the franchise award. No mention is made in these reports of this being an order for new trains. I thought that Alstom at Widnes was the most likely candidate to carry out the refurbishment on these trains. I hadn’t realised that Hitachi offered the service in the U.K. of refurbishing other manufacturers trains

I would strongly suspect it is a misinterpretation on the part of City AM, and that it actually refers to the new trains, or at least some of them.

I’d imagine the likelihood is that this deal would mean that the new trains would be Class 800 stock. I thought they had specifically specified the order would be 13 Bimode and 10 EMU. I don’t think 13 Bi mode (with no likely future West Coast order and from the other main IC franchises) would justify the costs in creating a bimode derivative of the CAF 397. Especially as new CAF stock has had far from a smooth introduction into service in the U.K. They can be fairly confident that a mature Class 802 from Hitachi (which it certainly will be by 2022) provides little risk. From a leasing perspective the Hitachi Class 800’s must be much more attractive as they are not a small sub fleet and can easily be redeployed across the network, if West Coast ever stop using them.

There is certainly an excellent case for the trains to be 80x, which is why I'm predicting that - not just because people don't like them! (Though fundamentally the train is a tube with cabs on the ends, a means of powering it and windows down the side - I doubt many dislike that specifically, more the interior fit-outs that have been selected so far, or even more specifically the seats in both classes).

The 80x has plenty going for it as a train - long vehicles, efficient layouts, quiet engines, decent ride, 140mph capability for futureproofing, decent sized windows etc. It even looks quite good. The only thing that disappoints me about it really that isn't just interior design is that it isn't low-floor.
 

krus_aragon

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Oh dear, another route with awful junk trains! :(

In fact that makes all of them. What a strange railway we have.
I wonder if a disillusioned enthusiast of the past said something similar with those nasty HSTs ending up on all the mainlines. ;)

(It would have been the late 1980s by the time they made it to the WCML and NWCL though, so presumably they'd have started to win some widespread affection by then.)
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if a disillusioned enthusiast of the past said something similar with the HSTs ending up on all the mainlines. ;)

And of Pacers and Sprinters.

Fundamentally the 80x is not an awful junk train. It's a pretty decent, solid, reliable and flexible train that just happens, in all of its implementations so far, to have awful seats.

Would you say the Mercedes-Benz Tourismo is a rubbish coach just because some schoolkid coaching company specced 3+2 seating in one they ordered?
 

superalbs

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I wonder if a disillusioned enthusiast of the past said something similar with those nasty HSTs ending up on all the mainlines. ;)

(It would have been the late 1980s by the time they made it to the WCML and NWCL though, so presumably they'd have started to win some widespread affection by then.)
There is certainly a wide quality difference between even the original HST interior, and these cheap rubbish trains with metro seating lol.
 

Bletchleyite

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There is certainly a wide quality difference between even the original HST interior, and these cheap rubbish trains with metro seating lol.

I don't see any quality difference whatsoever between the Mk3 interior and the 80x interior other than the seating. And much as I dislike Fainsa Sophias, I'd take a 6 hour journey in one of those over a 2 hour journey in an InterCity 70.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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The Telegraph has much the same story (might be penned by the same author), but it's behind a paywall.
They've chosen to illustrate it with what looks like a Frecciarossa 1000.
While I don't think we are about to get an ETR 1000 variant, the AT300s could be built in Pistoia.
They also use the odd phrasing that the order is "to overhaul trains and carriages on the WCML".
£200m does seem about right for 23x5-car sets.
But have they solved the 125mph tilt problem?
Maybe CAF lost out on their build quality.
 

Chiltern006

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So it's likely that Class 801s will be the Electic Only variants and the 802/800s ir another type will be the bi-kode. God there everywhere now...
 

59CosG95

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So it's likely that Class 801s will be the Electic Only variants and the 802/800s ir another type will be the bi-kode. God there everywhere now...
No. The Class 800s and 801s are part of the InterCity Express Programme (IEP), specifically for the GWML (GWR) & ECML (VTEC, then LNER). Subsequent orders for stock in the same vein (GWR, TPE, Hull Trains) have been for Class 802s; EMR's new units have yet to be classified, but they are a slightly different design to classes 800, 801 & 802. It is yet to be known whether or not the new Hitachi stock on order for the WCML will be similar to the pre-existing 800/801/802 units, or more similar to the unclassified EMR units - I'm banking on the latter.

As far as classifications go, I'm hedging my bets on the EMR bi-modes being the same class as the bi-modes ordered for WCML work, with the straight electric sets being a different class.
 

BillBlue80

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The Telegraph has much the same story (might be penned by the same author), but it's behind a paywall.
They've chosen to illustrate it with what looks like a Frecciarossa 1000.
While I don't think we are about to get an ETR 1000 variant, the AT300s could be built in Pistoia.
They also use the odd phrasing that the order is "to overhaul trains and carriages on the WCML".
£200m does seem about right for 23x5-car sets.
But have they solved the 125mph tilt problem?
Maybe CAF lost out on their build quality.


A recent article in Rail magazine discussed the fact that the Pendolino may be the last of the tilting trains. I’ve tried to extract the most relevant bits from the article.

“SINCE 2002, tilting trains have enabled 125mph running on the sinuous West Coast Main Line. By leaning further into curves to counteract outwards acceleration (more on the science later), these trains can reach speeds that conventional trains travelling on the line cannot.

Or at least, that was the case until a few months ago.

You might not have noticed, but the first of TransPennine Express’s new Class 397 and Class 802 trains have been running up and down the West Coast Main Line (WCML) north of Preston at speeds of up to 125mph without any tilting capability at all.

“On a strategic level, removing the need for tilt is very important. Given that High Speed 2’s ‘classic-compatible’ fleet will most likely not have tilt, it proves the viability of their proposed operations beyond the limits of new infrastructure.

Until now, discussions about HS2’s train service north of Manchester have compared it unfavourably to the current long-distance high-speed services (LDHSSs), with suggestions that HS2 speeds and journey times would be worse once they joined the WCML.

Now that TPE has shown that tilt isn’t necessary for fast timings, not only will this reduce the cost of any new fleet, it will also reduce the conflicts between the tilting and non-tilting fast trains operating through the North West and into Scotland. This avoids increased headways and the reduced capacity that conflicting speeds would result in.

It is important to note that limits of cant are defined by comfort and maintainability, rather than by safety. Trains have to run significantly above the design speed through a curve before derailment becomes a risk.

On the WCML, where the speed differential between slow trains and fast trains is at its most extreme and where curves are plentiful, the application of enough cant to enable 125mph for LDHSSs resulted in significant excess cant for freight trains and an unacceptable long-term maintenance liability. Hence the development and use of the tilting train, which essentially adds its own cant on top of that applied by track engineers.

On the WCML, there’s another factor at play. Unlike the East Coast Main Line, with its long straight sections and the occasional curvy bit, the West Coast has a speed profile like a sawtooth, with or without tilt in operation. Even the Pendolino isn’t particularly quick at accelerating out of curves, and in a few cases drivers can’t make much use of the short stretches of higher permissible speeds.

This isn’t the case with the latest generation of electric multiple units. Both CAF’s Class 397 and Hitachi’s Class 802 (IET) trains have an immense rate of acceleration, and for a railway with lots of changes of speed, acceleration to make the most of the fast stretches is as important as the overall top speed.

Whizz back to the curvier WCML, and the new trains with their better acceleration (and driver advisory systems that really make the most of their nippy performance) can get very close to the timings of the tilting Pendolinos.

TPE, CAF, Hitachi and Network Rail have undertaken extensive modelling to assess the requirements for non-tilting 125mph operation. The overhead traction equipment (not least the tension of the contact wire), signalling distances and vertical alignment (even a railway has to consider vertical accelerations to keep passengers comfortable and track materials intact) are 125mph-capable without any alteration.

Only curving forces present an issue. And having identified several test sections, CAF in particular has been running its Class 397s at the proposed speeds and ensuring that comfort in the passenger saloons isn’t affected.

Testing of this aspect of the new trains’ operation has shown that 125mph without tilt is comfortably feasible, and that the better acceleration of the units allows them to make more use of the short straight sections between curves. If all goes to plan, then the WCML north of Preston should be signed off for 125mph without tilt in the middle of next year.

It remains to be seen if this will be extended southwards. But given the reduction in costs that it would appear to represent, and the potential benefits to passenger and freight operations, it would be a surprise if tilting capability (or the track-mounted enabling equipment) was retained anywhere beyond the life of the Class 221s and ‘390s’.”
 

ainsworth74

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Let's not do the seat debate on this thread please? If anyone is truly desperate to share their totally unique point of view on seating then please feel free to do so in a new thread. Otherwise we do not need to hear "wot I think about seats" on yet another thread. Starting a new thread would be fine but not in this thread please.
 

Bletchleyite

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And lighting.

Yes, indeed. If we are talking GWR Mk3s or as-built, the Class 800 lighting is better. OK, it was warm white but it was incredibly over-bright and very poorly diffused. As a slightly naughtier younger person I used to go round switching them to "dim".

I can understand harking back to tungsten, but not to the various nasty fluorescent tube lighting setups of the 1970s-1990s.
 

Bletchleyite

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As far as classifications go, I'm hedging my bets on the EMR bi-modes being the same class as the bi-modes ordered for WCML work, with the straight electric sets being a different class.

I can't see any reason they would go for 24m bodies - with 26m a double set is about the same length as an 11-car Pendolino. The specific need for 24m bodies is unique to the MML.
 

BillBlue80

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I can't see any reason they would go for 24m bodies - with 26m a double set is about the same length as an 11-car Pendolino. The specific need for 24m bodies is unique to the MML.
I agree. The other major change to the new EMR 80x’s is that they have an increased number of Diesel engines, although as diesel will only be used from Crewe to Chester and North Wales I wouldn’t think they are concerned about high level performance when on diesel, as there is no 125mph sections on this route.

“The vehicles will be 24 metres long, two metres shorter than the Class 800-802 fleets, so that they can operate on Midland Main Line infrastructure. They will also have four diesel engines per train, whereas other Hitachi bi-modes have three, meaning for the first time a driving vehicle will be powered. The nose design will be altered slightly, although details are still to be finalised.”

Obviously the reason the New EMU order is being planned for use on the additional Euston - Liverpool Lime Street services is that these additional services will stop at Liverpool South Parkway. As far as I’m aware even a 9 car let alone an 11 car Pendolino is too long for the platforms at the station. However I can’t see any issues with a 5 car Class 800, even with the 26m bodies, as the platforms did not seem ridiculously short from my experiences of passing through the station.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I agree. The other change is that they have an increased number of Diesel engines, although as diesel will only be used from Crewe to Chester and North Wales I wouldn’t think they are concerned about high level performance when
on diesel, as there is no 125mph sections on this route.

Agreed. The NWC is a textbook bi-mode application - high speed running on the mainline under the wires, much lower speed running on diesel.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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A recent article in Rail magazine discussed the fact that the Pendolino may be the last of the tilting trains. I’ve tried to extract the most relevant bits from the article.

I've read all that before.
Call me a pessimist, but I don't see how 20 years of "Tilt plus TASS" on the WCML can be just airbrushed away.
The WCRM design (on which £8 billion was spent) was to retain the existing 110mph PSR line speed, with any faster stock employing tilt and TASS for ATP as well as controlling tilting).
What has changed to permit 125mph PSR without these features? Is tilt then unnecessary?
I could understand it if there were to be interventions on straight-ish sections (but how do you sign it safely?), but not just to deem it OK to run at the higher speed with no extra work.
So I'd expect the higher speed to be phased in gradually and only over limited sections (compared to EPS).
There are also significant stretches of the WCML, notably over the fells, which are not suitable for 125mph running, even with tilt - eg 80mph over Shap and Beattock.
In the past, I've seen some reference to higher speeds being possible using TPWS+.
Maybe that is the magic ingredient?
It would be nice if Network Rail said something about such an upgrade.
 

BillBlue80

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The CAF units would also be assembled in Britain.

I agree but where else in the UK is there an obvious market for a Bi-mode 397? I can’t see too many other orders, with the exception of replacing the “New” Scotrail HST’s, which it has been suggested have run into a number of problems. The CAF Civity regional trains programme seems likely to the success story with over 200 units already delivered or on order.

The 397 has only secured 12 orders currently, so is an extremely niche fleet and adapting it to be a bi-mode won’t come cheap. Even if you do so it may only secure a maximum of 13 orders. You could argue that CAF may be willing to take the financial hit as it battles to become seen as a good option for Intercity units in the UK market. Some fairly reliable sources at Modern Railways seemed to suggest fairly recently that they were surprisingly favourites for the the West Coast EMU/Bi-mode order. Obviously First have shown they are willing to buy CAF but many suggested it was the availability of delivery slots that was the deciding factor in the TPE ordering the CAF stock instead of a single order for Hitachi 80x. There shouldn’t be an issue now and I would imagine Hitachi would have no issues producing 10 x 801(EMU) and 13 x 802(Bi-mode) for 2022.

All of the other Intercity operators have gone with Hitachi Class 80x, with over 160 (bi-mode) versions delivered or on order. So it’s clearly a trusted product and by 2022 will be a mature platform. It will also be seen by the ROSCO’s as being a much safer bet as they know even if West Coast requirements change, there are so many other franchises that would take over the lease repayments immediately. This would likely make the cost of lease payments lower than that of a CAF equivalent, as the ROSCO can be far more confident of the trains being in constant operation for 30 plus years (generating monthly lease repayments in the process). The initial operator of a small sub-fleet is likely to have to stump up more in monthly lease payments in the first decade of the trains operational life, to ensure the ROSCO can be confident that it will make back its initial investment in the stock. An insurance policy for the ROSCO if you like because the sub-fleet may not consistently generate lease repayments across a 30 year period.
 
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