Has anyone tried to test the theory of delay compensation for PTE tickets yet?

Grizzly · 5 Aug 2019

I'd always taken the terms of M card at face value, and until I saw this thread wasn't aware of the government ruling on this. I've made a number of claims in the past where I have used my M card in combination with another ticket, and received delay repay based only on the value of the other ticket, but have included my M card to explain what journey I was making.

Recently I had a similar claim rejected by Northern on the grounds that M card wasn't eligible. I sent a follow-up pointing out I was using another ticket as well, but have not had any response yet (though it is within their response time). It was only a few quid this time, but the delay was nearly an hour, so I hoped I'd get something.

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northernchris · 14 Aug 2019

Grizzly said:
I'd always taken the terms of M card at face value, and until I saw this thread wasn't aware of the government ruling on this. I've made a number of claims in the past where I have used my M card in combination with another ticket, and received delay repay based only on the value of the other ticket, but have included my M card to explain what journey I was making.

Recently I had a similar claim rejected by Northern on the grounds that M card wasn't eligible. I sent a follow-up pointing out I was using another ticket as well, but have not had any response yet (though it is within their response time). It was only a few quid this time, but the delay was nearly an hour, so I hoped I'd get something.

I received a response from Northern regarding a delay I incurred when travelling on an MCard. They stated that they don't consider delay repay for these unless the delay is incurred onboard the service so it's not possible to make alternative arrangements. I did receive a goodwill gesture though of a return ticket anywhere on the Northern network, so it's always worth submitting

Grizzly · 14 Aug 2019

Cheers, seems like a bit of a lottery. I'm still hoping they would compensate for the rail ticket part of my journey at least.

_toommm_ · 18 Aug 2019

So I've just received the following email back off Northern, and it's safe to say I've been fobbed off:

Dear Tom,

Thank you for contacting Northern and please allow me to apologise for the delays you experienced.

We have listened to our customers feedback and now have a dedicated team to process delay repay claims with more efficiency and also allowing payments to be made back to your card or a BAC'S transfer, unfortunately we do not have access to this new system here in the complaints department.

If you have been delayed by 15 minutes or more by one of our train services, please submit your claim directly to the Delay Repay team by one of the following methods;

You can set up an online account on our website www.northernrailway.co.uk where you can log in, submit a claim and track your payments.

You can fill out one of our online web forms on our website www.northernrailway.co.uk

You can email your claim directly to [email protected] (you can claim for multiple journeys by emailing, please ensure you include all dates and times of affected journeys along with a photo of the tickets used on those days)

Please note all claims need to be made within 28 days of the affected journey.
I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience this disruption caused to you, should you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Kind Regards,

Charlotte Brown
Customer Solutions Advisor

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Saperstein · 18 Aug 2019

_toommm_ said:
So I've just received the following email back off Northern, and it's safe to say I've been fobbed off:

Dear Tom,

Thank you for contacting Northern and please allow me to apologise for the delays you experienced.

We have listened to our customers feedback and now have a dedicated team to process delay repay claims with more efficiency and also allowing payments to be made back to your card or a BAC'S transfer, unfortunately we do not have access to this new system here in the complaints department.

If you have been delayed by 15 minutes or more by one of our train services, please submit your claim directly to the Delay Repay team by one of the following methods;

You can set up an online account on our website www.northernrailway.co.uk where you can log in, submit a claim and track your payments.

You can fill out one of our online web forms on our website www.northernrailway.co.uk

You can email your claim directly to [email protected] (you can claim for multiple journeys by emailing, please ensure you include all dates and times of affected journeys along with a photo of the tickets used on those days)

Please note all claims need to be made within 28 days of the affected journey.
I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience this disruption caused to you, should you have any further questions or concerns please do not hesitate to get in touch.

Kind Regards,

Charlotte Brown
Customer Solutions Advisor

Telephone: 0800 200 6060
Post: FREEPOST Northern Railway

www.northernrailway.co.uk

Passing the buck aren’t they... or employing stalling tactics.

It stinks tbh, I had the similar aggro with TPE over less than a fiver but I kept at it, which reminds me I must update my TPE thread.

Male sure you keep on at them, if necessary take it to the rail ombudsman.

Saperstein.

Bantamzen · 19 Aug 2019

Grizzly said:
I'd always taken the terms of M card at face value, and until I saw this thread wasn't aware of the government ruling on this. I've made a number of claims in the past where I have used my M card in combination with another ticket, and received delay repay based only on the value of the other ticket, but have included my M card to explain what journey I was making.

Recently I had a similar claim rejected by Northern on the grounds that M card wasn't eligible. I sent a follow-up pointing out I was using another ticket as well, but have not had any response yet (though it is within their response time). It was only a few quid this time, but the delay was nearly an hour, so I hoped I'd get something.

This has also been my view, although I have watched threads like this with interest. Personally I think the issue lies with the contract that the West Yorkshire Combined Authority have negotiated with TOCs. They explain the reason they did not include the T&Cs in negotiating acceptance on their MCard site:

https://www.m-card.co.uk/news/mcard...dditional-compensation-scheme-for-rail-users/

The Terms and Conditions state that the rail industry's Delay Repay Scheme which entitles rail ticket holders to compensation when services are delayed, only applies to rail operator only tickets and not to multi-operator, multi-modal season tickets such as MCards.

The reason for this clause is that it is not yet practical to administer claims due to the flexibility of the MCard tickets offering multi-modal transport at any time of the day. We know that MCard customers value this flexibility to travel on nearly all buses and trains across West Yorkshire in their chosen zones. We have taken this approach because it meets the needs of the many thousands of people who use MCard to make millions of journeys every year. This very flexibility makes Delay Repay impossible to administer, as MCard tickets are valid on all journeys being operated across the zone in question. Meaning a railway-style Delay Repay scheme would open up the MCard to the risk of fraudulent activity. We take revenue protection very seriously as it makes sure we avoid any needless price increases.

So this is the reason there is this current situation. The WYCA clearly think that changing the T&Cs of MCard will require additional cost which may well be passed onto the customer. And to a certain degree there is a point there, MCards are now just smartcards loaded with passes that are fully transferrable. So the potential for fraud when for the most part the tickets will be unchecked without any touch in/out technology at the majority of West Yorkshire's stations is large (although I suppose technically this could be achieved at the TVMs, although this would come with it's own issues). Indeed there are potentially ways that one card could be used by multiple travellers on the same journey although I am not going to say how here. Its a loophole I have already communicated to MCard / WYCA.

However on the flip side there are the terms set out in the NRCoT that lay out the requirements of TOCs to compensate passengers for delay. Now I will make it clear that I am not arguing one way or the other, frankly I have no idea how this disparity could be resolved without the intervention of the Ombudsman, DfT & even government. Clearly it needs to be resolved, but from a personal point of view I think those seeking to change this situation need also to approach the WYCA to have them change their T&Cs. Operators may well continue to asses claims on a case by case basis, but it is ultimately the owner of the product that will need to move to resolve this once and for all.

_toommm_ · 19 Aug 2019

Bantamzen said:
This has also been my view, although I have watched threads like this with interest. Personally I think the issue lies with the contract that the West Yorkshire Combined Authority have negotiated with TOCs. They explain the reason they did not include the T&Cs in negotiating acceptance on their MCard site:

https://www.m-card.co.uk/news/mcard...dditional-compensation-scheme-for-rail-users/

So this is the reason there is this current situation. The WYCA clearly think that changing the T&Cs of MCard will require additional cost which may well be passed onto the customer. And to a certain degree there is a point there, MCards are now just smartcards loaded with passes that are fully transferrable. So the potential for fraud when for the most part the tickets will be unchecked without any touch in/out technology at the majority of West Yorkshire's stations is large (although I suppose technically this could be achieved at the TVMs, although this would come with it's own issues). Indeed there are potentially ways that one card could be used by multiple travellers on the same journey although I am not going to say how here. Its a loophole I have already communicated to MCard / WYCA.

However on the flip side there are the terms set out in the NRCoT that lay out the requirements of TOCs to compensate passengers for delay. Now I will make it clear that I am not arguing one way or the other, frankly I have no idea how this disparity could be resolved without the intervention of the Ombudsman, DfT & even government. Clearly it needs to be resolved, but from a personal point of view I think those seeking to change this situation need also to approach the WYCA to have them change their T&Cs. Operators may well continue to asses claims on a case by case basis, but it is ultimately the owner of the product that will need to move to resolve this once and for all.

But the same could surely be said about traditional Rail season tickets - as I'm sure you know there are websites out there that will show you which services were delayed for your journey and automatically claim for you. Just because a ticket also includes a combination of bus and tram travel, doesn't make it any more or less susceptible to fraud.

And of course, some journeys possible inside a PTE area on a train are either cumbersome or impossible to do by buses, so it wouldn't make sense for the TOC to claim 'oh you could have travelled by bus so we're refusing to compensate you for your delay'.

Bantamzen · 19 Aug 2019

_toommm_ said:
But the same could surely be said about traditional Rail season tickets - as I'm sure you know there are websites out there that will show you which services were delayed for your journey and automatically claim for you. Just because a ticket also includes a combination of bus and tram travel, doesn't make it any more or less susceptible to fraud.

And of course, some journeys possible inside a PTE area on a train are either cumbersome or impossible to do by buses, so it wouldn't make sense for the TOC to claim 'oh you could have travelled by bus so we're refusing to compensate you for your delay'.

Oh I agree, don't get me wrong. But this is not my rationale, instead that of the WYCA who own the product. Whether this is right or wrong is the point of this thread, but its important to understand why this situation exists and who ultimately may be responsible for changing it.

_toommm_ · 19 Aug 2019

Bantamzen said:
Oh I agree, don't get me wrong. But this is not my rationale, instead that of the WYCA who own the product. Whether this is right or wrong is the point of this thread, but its important to understand why this situation exists and who ultimately may be responsible for changing it.

Ahh I get you - apologies!

gray1404 · 19 Aug 2019

Advise required please.

Journey St Helens Central to Liverpool Lime Street with Northern. Train cancelled. Total delay 30 minutes.

Ticket used: Merseytravel issued concessionary/free (disabled) travel pass. Am I entitled to anything?

Although value of ticket is £0.00 amI still entitled to a free single voucher to anywhere on the Northern network?

If so, is it worth putting in a claim?

_toommm_ · 19 Aug 2019

gray1404 said:
Advise required please.

Journey St Helens Central to Liverpool Lime Street with Northern. Train cancelled. Total delay 30 minutes.

Ticket used: Merseytravel issued concessionary/free (disabled) travel pass. Am I entitled to anything?

Although value of ticket is £0.00 amI still entitled to a free single voucher to anywhere on the Northern network?

If so, is it worth putting in a claim?

You could try emailing them - I doubt the Delay Repay website will get you anywhere as they'll probably auto-reject it.

Haywain · 19 Aug 2019

gray1404 said:
Although value of ticket is £0.00 amI still entitled to a free single voucher to anywhere on the Northern network?

If so, is it worth putting in a claim?

I don't think you are 'entitled' to anything at all, but there's no harm in asking.

ASharpe · 19 Aug 2019

I've had my latest claim rejected (I get unlucky sometimes). I think along with other it might be worth a CRA claim but I don't know if I would have to incur an actual loss first - I'm sure I will be late collecting my daughter from nursery one day and will be able to claim.

I have an understanding that it's not WYCA/METRO that are excluding their products but Transport for the North.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/incorrect_statement_regarding_de#incoming-1314330

I wonder if it is worth asking a question similar to this again? I don't have much experience with how to pose FOI requests but will think about it.

Bantamzen · 20 Aug 2019

asharpe said:
I've had my latest claim rejected (I get unlucky sometimes). I think along with other it might be worth a CRA claim but I don't know if I would have to incur an actual loss first - I'm sure I will be late collecting my daughter from nursery one day and will be able to claim.

I have an understanding that it's not WYCA/METRO that are excluding their products but Transport for the North.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/incorrect_statement_regarding_de#incoming-1314330

I wonder if it is worth asking a question similar to this again? I don't have much experience with how to pose FOI requests but will think about it.

Hmm, the plot thickens. I'm really unsure just what remit TfN has on this, MCards are the product of the WYCA who are, in part funded by the councils of it's region. The T&Cs around delay repay and MCards (formally Metrocards) have existed for as long as delay repay has been a thing, that I am almost 100% certain of.

What the redacted memo seems to state is that Northern believe that TfN can make the final decision, however unless TfN have overridden WYCA in terms of authority for MCard T&Cs, then I would say that it is WYCA that need to address this first and foremost. To be honest that redacted memo doesn't help very much, I would say that a more formal approach to WYCA would be a better way to gain an understanding of the reasons behind the policy, and the likelihood / risks of seeking a change.

yorksrob · 20 Aug 2019

It wouldn't be the first time WY passengers interests have been overridden by TfN.

Remember the debacle over the timetable booklet !

Kite159 · 20 Aug 2019

Is a MCard or other PTE products any different to using Oyster or holding a paper travelcard?

Bantamzen · 20 Aug 2019

Kite159 said:
Is a MCard or other PTE products any different to using Oyster or holding a paper travelcard?

In so much that how the T&Cs for use on the rail network in West Yorkshire were negotiated goes, then it is certainly different to at least Oyster. And with the exception of a few main stations, there are no touch in/out points, which is one of the main reasons cited by the WYCA for not having delay repay.

Mathew S · 20 Aug 2019

Bantamzen said:
In so much that how the T&Cs for use on the rail network in West Yorkshire were negotiated goes, then it is certainly different to at least Oyster. And with the exception of a few main stations, there are no touch in/out points, which is one of the main reasons cited by the WYCA for not having delay repay.

That's nonsense though isn't it. Disproved by the GM Traincard if nothing else, which does attract delay repay. Not to mention every rover and ranger ticket that gets sold.

Bantamzen · 21 Aug 2019

Mathew S said:
That's nonsense though isn't it. Disproved by the GM Traincard if nothing else, which does attract delay repay. Not to mention every rover and ranger ticket that gets sold.

Well don't tell me, tell WYCA who quite clearly don't think its nonsense. And judging by the FOI request up thread, there is clearly still some doubt as to what the exact position is, and even who is responsible for resolving the matter one way or the other.

Personally I don't know what has been proved with the GM Traincard (although the clue might be in the name), but the MCard is a totally different product sold on behalf of a totally different organisation. The fact that as yet neither the DfT or the Ombudsman have determined that all locally offered season tickets must also attract delay repay where appropriate shows that there is clearly still a gap in the conditions of travel.

Mathew S · 21 Aug 2019

Bantamzen said:
Well don't tell me, tell WYCA who quite clearly don't think its nonsense. And judging by the FOI request up thread, there is clearly still some doubt as to what the exact position is, and even who is responsible for resolving the matter one way or the other.

Personally I don't know what has been proved with the GM Traincard (although the clue might be in the name), but the MCard is a totally different product sold on behalf of a totally different organisation. The fact that as yet neither the DfT or the Ombudsman have determined that all locally offered season tickets must also attract delay repay where appropriate shows that there is clearly still a gap in the conditions of travel.

I think it proves that the lack of touching in / touching out isn't a barrier to delay repay on this kind of ticket.
There's a host of other issues, I agree, but I don't think the lack of in/out checks is a credible argument WYCA can make. Not that that seems to be stopping them... :rolleyes:

bussnapperwm · 26 Aug 2019

I've had a couple of easy and swift payouts from WMR whilst using WM PTE products so they don't seem to have a problem.

Seems it's just a Northern issue

_toommm_ · 8 Sep 2019

Just received my reply from Northern - one of the delays they won't pay out as it was down to congestion, and as it wasn't Northern's fault, they won't pay.

The other two delays are down to problems at the Depot, for which they're going to have to investigate as to whether it's their fault or not.

yorkie · 8 Sep 2019

Northern need to be careful as they would not fare well if a class action lawsuit came there way.

skifans · 9 Sep 2019

_toommm_ said:
Just received my reply from Northern - one of the delays they won't pay out as it was down to congestion, and as it wasn't Northern's fault, they won't pay.

The other two delays are down to problems at the Depot, for which they're going to have to investigate as to whether it's their fault or not.

Interesting, I've had a GM Wayfarer paid from Northern less then a week ago. The Manchester to Sheffield Hope Valley stopper was held at Chinley Junction for the late running East Midlands Railway express. I was prepared to argue it if needed but to be fair it was paid with no further questions.

_toommm_ · 2 Oct 2019

Just received a reply back from Northern, and it's good news! TL;DR, I'm being compensated for 2/3 journeys, with free Northern network tickets:

Thank you for your patience whilst we have been investigating your complaint.

Our Performance team has been in touch in regards to the following services:

2A92 22nd July 2019 07:31 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green - train was late from depot

2A94 24th July 2019 09:30 Manchester Piccadilly to Heald Green - 25 minutes late due to being late from depot and then stations cancelled to re-stabilise the network

Both of these services were recorded as being late from the depot due to train faults and I apologise for the inconvenience this caused to your journeys. As the disruption was the fault of Northern, we are able to compensate you under the Consumer Rights Act. Where a multi-modal ticket has been provided we usually would provide complimentary Northern tickets, therefore I will follow this email up with two return Northern vouchers for you to use towards any journey on Northern services. Please expect to receive them in the post within 10 working days.

If you have any questions or if I can help with anything else. please let me know.

northernchris · 2 Oct 2019

Great result there, worth bearing in mind then if Northern are at fault they will supply vouchers for their services

Kite159 · 2 Oct 2019

Shame it was only return tickets and not "all-day" tickets.

Tetchytyke · 2 Oct 2019

Kite159 said:
Shame it was only return tickets and not "all-day" tickets.

A return from Nottingham to Whitehaven is pretty much the same thing?

Good result. Ish. Still no cash!

Has anyone tried to test the theory of delay compensation for PTE tickets yet?

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