• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Dynamic brake vs Air brake.

Status
Not open for further replies.

365 Networker

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
406
Is there a noticeable difference in braking performance between dynamic braking and air braking? If so why do some drivers on Great Northern 365s chose to Isolate the dynamic brake? Is it easier to drive with just air brakes or are their faults with the system - as with the Alsthom dmu units?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,910
Location
Nottingham
The dynamic brake on EMUs and DEMUs, if they have one, will use the electric traction motors to regenerate current. This is either converted to heat in resistance grids or returned to the traction supply.

By "Alsthom DMU" I assume you mean 175s or 180s, which have a mechanical/hydraulic drive instead of traction motors, and I believe the "dynamic" brake is some sort of retarder.

Both types will only operate on powered wheels, which I think is 50% of the wheels for both the 365 and the 175/180, but an air (friction) brake operates on all the wheels so can achieve a greater deceleration.

I can't comment on driving issues with 365s.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
Is there a noticeable difference in braking performance between dynamic braking and air braking? If so why do some drivers on Great Northern 365s chose to Isolate the dynamic brake? Is it easier to drive with just air brakes or are their faults with the system - as with the Alsthom dmu units?

They used to isolate dynamic brakes in leaf fall season, perhaps they still do?

Also I believe they are generally set-up so that the friction brakes will give a slightly better level of retardation than the dynamic brakes under the same brake demand.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,910
Location
Nottingham
I think the retarder on the 175/180 has been permanently isolated, possibly something to do with trying to improve reliability?

Interested also to know if 185s have something similar - I'm not an expert but the sound they make on braking suggests to me that they may.
 

37057

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
422
Interested also to know if 185s have something similar - I'm not an expert but the sound they make on braking suggests to me that they may.

Fitted and working but I think 1 (out of 153 vehicles) is running around with an intermittent fault at the moment.
 

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,352
It isn't a choice. If it's isolated or the unit slides it'll revert to air/friction instead of rheostatic.
 

365 Networker

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
406
It isn't a choice. If it's isolated or the unit slides it'll revert to air/friction instead of rheostatic.

I can understand it not working during wheel slip, but what other reasons for isolation are there? If you look at another emu with dynamic brakes (class 323) - they are nearly always working whereas on the 365 maybe only one out of 8 motor units may have it switched on. Perhaps the 323 has a better system.
 

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,653
Is there a noticeable difference in braking performance between dynamic braking and air braking? If so why do some drivers on Great Northern 365s chose to Isolate the dynamic brake? Is it easier to drive with just air brakes or are their faults with the system - as with the Alsthom dmu units?

Are drivers isolating them or are they isolated on certain units ?

I think brake performance is better with regen braking on emus. The air brake alone requires more effort at least that’s my experience on buses when there’s no retarder working lol
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
I think brake performance is better with regen braking on emus.

It shouldn't be ordinarily, they are usually set-up so that the friction brakes are keener than the rheostatic/regenerative; I have seen a few posts about that not being the case but that could be down to individual units.
 

millemille

Member
Joined
28 Jul 2011
Messages
353
It shouldn't be ordinarily, they are usually set-up so that the friction brakes are keener than the rheostatic/regenerative; I have seen a few posts about that not being the case but that could be down to individual units.

Think about what you've said there for a moment......

If dynamic and friction brake were intended to perform differently how would you be able to run units in multiple formation with dynamic brake isolated on individual units? The buffing and drawing forces would be all over the place.

Class 365 dynamic brake is probably widely isolated because of the condition of the brake resistor grids (365's don't regeneratively brake, only rheostatically). It was a real issue back when I was involved with the fleet and I don't see it having got any better.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,910
Location
Nottingham
Think about what you've said there for a moment......

If dynamic and friction brake were intended to perform differently how would you be able to run units in multiple formation with dynamic brake isolated on individual units? The buffing and drawing forces would be all over the place.

Class 365 dynamic brake is probably widely isolated because of the condition of the brake resistor grids (365's don't regeneratively brake, only rheostatically). It was a real issue back when I was involved with the fleet and I don't see it having got any better.
The dynamic brake only applies to half the axles at maximum, so it's bound to have different performance. But can't that be addressed by the brake system blending in some friction brake when the dynamic brake is isolated?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,785
Location
Glasgow
Think about what you've said there for a moment......

If dynamic and friction brake were intended to perform differently how would you be able to run units in multiple formation with dynamic brake isolated on individual units? The buffing and drawing forces would be all over the place.

Class 365 dynamic brake is probably widely isolated because of the condition of the brake resistor grids (365's don't regeneratively brake, only rheostatically). It was a real issue back when I was involved with the fleet and I don't see it having got any better.

I didn't say differently, I said sightly better. I mean this in the sense of how BR insisted that any friction brakes pad material had to having a co-efficient if friction which would not reduce as speed diminished but would ideally slightly increase at lower speeds and to a stand, that is exactly what I meant with how fraction brakes are set-up in systems where they are the back-up and final braking system on trains with rheostatic/dynamic brakes.
 

365 Networker

Member
Joined
19 Jul 2019
Messages
406
Class 365 dynamic brake is probably widely isolated because of the condition of the brake resistor grids (365's don't regeneratively brake, only rheostatically). It was a real issue back when I was involved with the fleet and I don't see it having got any better.

Can these resistors be replaced or are the parts obsolete/unavailable due to the age of them?
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,081
I think the retarder on the 175/180 has been permanently isolated, possibly something to do with trying to improve reliability?

Can't speak for 180s, but they have indeed long since been permanently isolated on 175s.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
24,910
Location
Nottingham
Can both brake types be used simultaneously?
If they can then you won't get any extra braking, because they are both applying on the same set of wheels and the deceleration is limited by adhesion between those wheels and the rails. So applying both to their maximum extent would just lock the wheel, but as most dynamic brakes are ineffective at low speed it would then release and you'd probably go into some sort of oscillation, complicated by the WSP trying to intervene too.
 

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,868
Location
Huyton
The dynamic brake only applies to half the axles at maximum, so it's bound to have different performance. But can't that be addressed by the brake system blending in some friction brake when the dynamic brake is isolated?


Does the air brake not apply to the other, unpowered, axles?
 

DaveTM

Member
Joined
25 Mar 2014
Messages
83
As I think the original poster (@365 Networker ) understood, the question is very dependent on class of traction. I can only comment on the units I sign.
On 377 units, the braking is described as "blended". If I select step 1 or step 2 or step 3 brake, I should get fixed levels of deceleration, regardless of speed and regardless of whether my kinetic energy is being converted into electricity or heat in resistors or heat in the brake pads. The system is pretty damn clever; it even uses the pressure in the air suspension to adjust the braking so that with a heavier passenger load the train makes a greater effort to stop.
As well as coping with the variations in passenger load, the system also has to deal with the variation in dynamic braking with speed. Effectively there is a fixed limit to the power that can be fed back to the 3rd rail or overhead, or to the resistors. The power generated by dynamic braking is proportional to the deceleration multiplied by the speed, so at high speed we hit the power limit and the dynamic braking is feeble. At low speed the motors are not being turned fast enough to act effectively as generators and so dynamic braking is feeble. At moderate speeds dynamic braking is useful. When I first apply the brake at high speed, the friction brakes self test and I see the pressure gauge go right up, then the dynamic braking kicks in and the friction brakes release their air and the gauge goes down a bit with the dynamic braking doing what it can and the friction brakes doing the rest of the work. As the speed declines and dynamic braking stops being power limited I see the pressure gauge drop slowly down to nearly zero as the dynamic braking takes on all the work. When I get down to around 10mph the motors become useless as generators and hence useless as brakes and the braking swaps back to friction, with the gauge going back up.
In theory, I should not be able to tell the difference between dynamic brakes and air brakes. If I have a unit with the dynamic braking cut out, I still use the same braking points. Whether I'm on a morning weekday commute (heavy heavy heavy) or a Sunday evening trip (light) I still use the same braking points. The only way to tell if you are being braked dynamically should to look at the brake pressure gauge.
In practice the system is not quite perfect, but it is pretty good. There are a couple of things that give away that the train has fallen back to friction brakes:
(1) brake discs don't wear evenly, so there is a vibration associated with friction braking whereas dynamic braking is smooooth.
(2) when the dynamic brakes cut out around 10mph there is a characteristic dip in braking for a moment as the friction brakes take over (which can be unpredictable by 1mph or so). If dynamic brakes are fully cut out there is no dip in braking and stopping exacty on the mark is easier!
On 377 units there is no circuit breaker in the cab (or other method) that allows the driver to choose dynamic vs. friction breaking. There is a method that fleet can use, but it is not available to the driver.
On 313 (Southern) units, dynamic braking is still available so far as I know, but the circuit breaker is always cut out and we are not allowed to reinstate it. I am told this is because the system was becoming unreliable. Having read old driver training material and accident reports (!!), I get the impression the implementation was somewhat cruder than on 377s and frankly I'm quite happy creating hot discs instead!
When driving a disc braked train in snow, the Rule Book requires drivers to do regular brake tests. The purpose of this is to break any ice that has formed on the mechanisms and to melt any ice that has formed on the discs and pads. So what happens on trains with blended brakes where the driver cannot choose to use the discs? On the 377s this is easily dealt with because the dynamic braking is not strong and for anything more than step 1 brakes the friction brakes are doing most of the work. However, I have read the driver training materials for the 700 units, and I see they have a "snow mode" which turns off the dynamic braking on those axles which have disc brakes.
 

aleggatta

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2015
Messages
545
I didn't know 313s even had dynamic braking!

313 dynamic brake was isolated by willesden (by all accounts due to it being another reason for them to decide to self ignite) so remained isolated when they transferred. The control feed on the back of the circuit breaker was disconnected as well as leaving it tripped out to prevent anyone reinstating without authorisation. I think the main issue was the type of dynamic brake system was very crude and a lot of the issues were surrounding the brake resistor grids, but these have all subsequently been replaced as they were one of the only asbestos containing items on the 313s.

Dynamic brake on 377s can be disabled on train with nothing more than a carriage key, but I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable passing on the location of that particular isolation! When dynamic braking is in effect on 377s, the pads are held 'touching' on the disk, ready to apply when the dynamic brake fade signal is sent from the traction system. It's because of this that there isn't normally any specific instructions relating to the dynamic brake in times of extreme temperature. Dynamic braking is disabled in Emergency brake applications and if the WSP can't regulate the axle rotation with the dynamic braking it will force friction braking
 

37057

Member
Joined
3 Jul 2009
Messages
422
On 377 units there is no circuit breaker in the cab (or other method) that allows the driver to choose dynamic vs. friction breaking. There is a method that fleet can use, but it is not available to the driver.

Using the DRA may inhibit the rheo\regen brakes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top