West Lothian buses

LiviCrazy · 29 Sep 2019

overthewater said:
This is not a surprise.

My point against you remains valid. At no point did I argue against your opinion on Horsburgh, my argument against you was your suggestion that there is a basis for investigation or challenge.

WLCs tender, though poor practice, remains 100% legal and transparent. From the opening advert of the tendering process it is clearly stated that it is 90% price, 10% quality. If Horsburgh are winning it on that criteria, having been advertised at that point there is not basis for challenge. This is how they have also won many contracts with Falkirk and Edinburgh councils. The tendering process is extremely regulated, and the entire process has to be open to scrutiny. If you have any basis to believe that undue process has been done you are legally entitled to request information through the Freedom of Information act.

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Gingerbus1991 · 29 Sep 2019

Of course, if it were up to me I wouldn't give any sort of money from any source to cronies like horseburgh....stuart's of carluke....the list goes on.

This funding has obviously sparked chat in what quality either LCB or FSE may provide over the cowboys..

Cesarcollie · 30 Sep 2019

LiviCrazy said:
My point against you remains valid. At no point did I argue against your opinion on Horsburgh, my argument against you was your suggestion that there is a basis for investigation or challenge.

WLCs tender, though poor practice, remains 100% legal and transparent. From the opening advert of the tendering process it is clearly stated that it is 90% price, 10% quality. If Horsburgh are winning it on that criteria, having been advertised at that point there is not basis for challenge. This is how they have also won many contracts with Falkirk and Edinburgh councils. The tendering process is extremely regulated, and the entire process has to be open to scrutiny. If you have any basis to believe that undue process has been done you are legally entitled to request information through the Freedom of Information act.

Many local authorities (I’m tempted to say ‘most’ but can’t be certain) award bus and school contracts 100% on price.

LiviCrazy · 30 Sep 2019

Cesarcollie said:
Many local authorities (I’m tempted to say ‘most’ but can’t be certain) award bus and school contracts 100% on price.

I don’t know about in England and Wales but under the Procurement Reform Act in Scotland we can only award contracts on Most Economical Advantageous Tender, it has to be a proportionate balance between price and quality.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-under-procurement-reform-scotland-act-2014/pages/5/

This is the case for all EU level Procurements too, which most bus contracts will be.

In Focus · 30 Sep 2019

overthewater said:
This is a game changing. West Lothian council will now cough up the Winchburgh Bus Route Development Grant Kick Start Funding, The bidding ends in 4 weeks and start in Jan 2020..
https://www.publiccontractsscotland.gov.uk/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP367301

If lothian wins its get funded paid service against First, If First wins its will mean its get operate the 600 for free and keep Lothian away. IF Horsburgh wins it will be waste of public money someone should investigate.

That's an interesting development going forward.

TheGrandWazoo · 30 Sep 2019

LiviCrazy said:
I don’t know about in England and Wales but under the Procurement Reform Act in Scotland we can only award contracts on Most Economical Advantageous Tender, it has to be a proportionate balance between price and quality.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/guidance-under-procurement-reform-scotland-act-2014/pages/5/

This is the case for all EU level Procurements too, which most bus contracts will be.

Having done public sector tender responses myself, what you say is correct. I've worked on various MEAT responses where the commercial aspect is typically is 60-70% of the scoring system, whilst the quality side is 30-40%. The response is scored against clearly stated criteria. If this isn't done or followed, then authorities lay themselves open to legal challenge.

Observer · 30 Sep 2019

Of course it's not just the price that the councils are interested, some are not stipulating things such as age limits which plays well to the operator.

LiviCrazy · 30 Sep 2019

Observer said:
Of course it's not just the price that the councils are interested, some are not stipulating things such as age limits which plays well to the operator.

Again that is specification criteria not evaluation criteria.

Specification is the minimum standards you might accept, eg the council are probably looking at vehicles having passed safety certificates, kept roadworthy and certain capacity.

Evaluation criteria will look more at asking how a supplier will deliver the service asking them to detail specific aspects. The quality of their response will be what scores them highly or poorly in that question.

I do agree that councils should be putting in more minimum standards, however they also have to be careful not to exclude SMEs from the tender process, doing so is also a risk of challenge.

However, it doesn’t sound like the council are doing much by way of contract management eg awarding on the basis that vehicles will be upgraded over the duration of the contract.

overthewater · 30 Sep 2019

Its a complete and utter joke, WLC has SD travel, Blue bus, LCB and First along with that lot for normal bus contracts, so plenty of competition. However E&M lost A fife school contract because there were using step entry deckers. There just lost No31 because there were not up to scratch as said in the newspaper, Locals are now happy as the buses are warm, clean, newer... run to time instead of breaking down.

The regulations are joke and its disgrace we have to put up with it. Its clear to all there is no quality.

Siemens Trains · 30 Sep 2019

LiviCrazy said:
I know from various colleagues that Horsburgh are actually exceptionally good at tendering.

But not very good at running buses that passengers might like to use.

LiviCrazy said:
When tendering we cannot, by law, consider past performance or personal experience, we can only go by what they submit and present to us.

Clearly that's part of the problem. No doubt staff at West Lothian and Edinburgh Councils wouild tell you if they weren't obliged to remain completely impartial. Their hearts must drop when they receive yet another 'good tender' submission from a company they know from past performance and personal experience can't deliver a decent sevice that would have a chance of growing into anything commercially viable.

LiviCrazy said:
You will also find that most public sector contracts are actually heavy weighted towards their quality submission rather than their price.

Not really true for things like bus services where there is often a limited budget for the whole council area, under increasing pressure from the Scottish Government. Run some services heavily weighted towards quality and they'd be waving goodbye to several lifeline services that a small number of people rely upon because they'll never become profitable. It's a difficult balance - I don't have the answers but this doesn't feel like a good way to run society or the bus industry.

TheEastCoaster · 2 Oct 2019

Was thinking of trying the Ex2 on my day off, what do folk think of this service? in its state now

scotrail158713 · 2 Oct 2019

TheEastCoaster said:
Was thinking of trying the Ex2 on my day off, what do folk think of this service? in its state now

I think, as expected, it’s doing better than the EX1. I don’t think it’s rammed at any point of the day but it seems to pick up a decent number of passengers.

Driver362 · 3 Oct 2019

Few busy run in morning and evening. Daytime is so so but can be quite too

Tetchytyke · 3 Oct 2019

Cesarcollie said:
Many local authorities (I’m tempted to say ‘most’ but can’t be certain) award bus and school contracts 100% on price.

As they should, really. So long as the bus is roadworthy and the driver DBS cleared, what else do you need?

Jordan Adam · 3 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
As they should, really. So long as the bus is roadworthy and the driver DBS cleared, what else do you need?

Agreed, although i do think they need to be stricter when it comes to vehicle standards. The amount of 'non-roadworthy' vehicles used on school contracts across the country is appalling.

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Agreed, although i do think they need to be stricter when it comes to vehicle standards. The amount of 'non-roadworthy' vehicles used on school contracts across the country is appalling.

If you think West Lothian has it bad you should visit some Lanarkshire towns!

Jordan Adam · 3 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
If you think West Lothian has it bad you should visit some Lanarkshire towns!

Not to get on at you or anything but i did say "across the country", implying UK Wide! It amazes me how some operators are allowed to still operate. Imo it's very much a "forgotten issue" so to speak as everyone is aware of it, but it's never really spoken about or dealt with properly other than the occasional mother ranting to the local rags.

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
Not to get on at you or anything but i did say "across the country", implying UK Wide! It amazes me how some operators are allowed to still operate. Imo it's very much a "forgotten issue" so to speak as everyone is aware of it, but it's never really spoken about or dealt with properly other than the occasional mother ranting to the local rags.

Granted, its a pitty bigger firms in certain area dont put there older B7s and B9's to better use and operate part time jobs for drivers for schools themselfs, as opposed to selling there old stock to cowboys lookin to make quick bucks

Observer · 3 Oct 2019

First aren't so interested in school work nowadays. Drivers are much needed for service work.

Just look at what they did with Falkirk and Stirling this year, dropping contracts middle of the school year instead of waiting for the summer, only a few remain in their hands now.

overthewater · 3 Oct 2019

What is the deal with the Fife contacts? I'm sure Bay and especially Stagecoach would hoover them up. It does seem Daytime Avonbridge - bathgate link is going. It might come back next march.

Jordan Adam · 3 Oct 2019

Observer said:
First aren't so interested in school work nowadays. Drivers are much needed for service work.

Just look at what they did with Falkirk and Stirling this year, dropping contracts middle of the school year instead of waiting for the summer, only a few remain in their hands now.

Granted it may be the case in the Falkirk/Stirling area, but it's not in other places. Part of the reason they got rid of school work is so they could enhance West Lothian services. Along with the improvements to the Glasgow-Falkirk/Stirling services. Albeit the X36 is away to be cut back.

Observer · 3 Oct 2019

Yes, the X36 thing is just dumb considering they rebranded all those buses. I don't know if there were still some more to brand and obviously the plug can be pulled for them, but if there's now going to be a surplus of the branded buses it just seems like a waste.

What they were doing with the X36 (and previous services before) was to run a short service to Denny because of another operator running a half hourly route from Stirling to there during the weekdays, but it looks like that's not happening with the X36 cutback as nothing was mentioned about short workings, which were a waste of time and resources anyway.

New First timetables up in Forthcoming. New X36 timetable is only hourly, so they're not wasting money with combat services any more.

route101 · 3 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
If you think West Lothian has it bad you should visit some Lanarkshire towns!

Was not that long ago i seen p reg (1976) deckers on a Hamiltons school run

Jordan Adam · 3 Oct 2019

Observer said:
Yes, the X36 thing is just dumb considering they rebranded all those buses. I don't know if there were still some more to brand and obviously the plug can be pulled for them, but if there's now going to be a surplus of the branded buses it just seems like a waste.

What they were doing with the X36 (and previous services before) was to run a short service to Denny because of another operator running a half hourly route from Stirling to there during the weekdays, but it looks like that's not happening with the X36 cutback as nothing was mentioned about short workings, which were a waste of time and resources anyway.

New First timetables up in Forthcoming. New X36 timetable is only hourly, so they're not wasting money with combat services any more.

I don't have a list, but not all X36 duties are covered by branded buses and i suspect they won't need to debrand any. Even then the Gold front on the Midland E300s is just vinyl, unlike other services where they paint the wedge on.

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

Plaster some colour on, wa-lah, instant revenue increase says first..

More like money wasted on inconceivable nonsense..reliability, cost, quality, cleanliness and pedestal levels of good PR are key to retaining customers.

Jordan Adam · 3 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
Plaster some colour on, wa-lah, instant revenue increase says first..

More like money wasted on inconceivable nonsense..reliability, cost, quality, cleanliness and pedestal levels of good PR are key to retaining customers.

I disagree, branding does raise the profile of services and the branded vehicles look superb. The fronts being done in vinyl clearly show some forward planing in the event the service didn't grow, which unfortunately it hasn't. Granted there's been flaws in the routes the services take between Glasgow and Motherwell but i don't think it's fair to be so critical. The service as it is now is a huge improvement from 3/4 years ago when it was using ancient Scanias and Olympians.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
I disagree, branding does raise the profile of services and the branded vehicles look superb. The fronts being done in vinyl clearly show some forward planing in the event the service didn't grow, which unfortunately it hasn't. Granted there's been flaws in the routes the services take between Glasgow and Motherwell but i don't think it's fair to be so critical. The service as it is now is a huge improvement from 3/4 years ago when it was using ancient Scanias and Olympians.

The X36 is a massive upgrade on the X39 in terms of buses used on it tbh but having used it a few times I can understand why it's not overly busy. The train is just far too quick for it from Stirling to Glasgow and I don't think taking it out of Cumbernauld Town Centre has helped it much either

Jordan Adam · 4 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
The X36 is a massive upgrade on the X39 in terms of buses used on it tbh but having used it a few times I can understand why it's not overly busy. The train is just far too quick for it from Stirling to Glasgow and I don't think taking it out of Cumbernauld Town Centre has helped it much either

In order to not go any further off topic I've replied in the First Midland Bluebird thread....

LiviCrazy · 4 Oct 2019

I’ve not been paying much attention to other routes recently on either side but just to say the 23/X23 are getting a lot busier. Usually running as a single decker route now, but full to standing every morning and most evenings now and even pretty full during the day. The X27/X28 seem to be doing reasonably well too, a lot of available passengers on that route apparently.

In Focus · 4 Oct 2019

LiviCrazy said:
I’ve not been paying much attention to other routes recently on either side but just to say the 23/X23 are getting a lot busier. Usually running as a single decker route now, but full to standing every morning and most evenings now and even pretty full during the day. The X27/X28 seem to be doing reasonably well too, a lot of available passengers on that route apparently.

Only 10 ADL deckers and 1 omnideck(loaned in) in Livingston depot (BBT apart) now after movement of vehicles that saw 15 streetlites from Bristol and Glasgow enter service ,No Volvo Gemini vehicles in Livingston now. Most routes are now Single decker ,good move on the efficiency front.

West Lothian buses

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