First Greater Glasgow

TheGrandWazoo · 3 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
With the extra diversion I'd say an extra bus each way might be needed and obviously that does play a part. I'm not overly familiar with the prices for the X1 tbh for singles but say people were to buy network all days it would take 6 an hour to break that £35 an hour figure you mentioned before. Will be easier to work out when they reveal what the special prices will be for it

Again, your thinking is flawed. Here's perhaps a more realistic way of looking at it Note: these are indicative figures as only First will actually know. Do not interpret as fact but just to show the way in which the figures might be used.

Monthly ticket holders are currently paying £3.16 per day for a return journey. Concessionary pass holders are probably attracting a similar revenue for a round trip. If you're lucky, very lucky, those people who pay full return fare might drag the figure per passenger up to £3.75 or £4.00 per journey? Let's be bold and assume £4 - makes the maths easier.

So if you have four vehicles that have to make £450 per day, then you need to make £1800 with your four buses. That means you have to attract 450 passengers per day. Doesn't seem a lot if you've got perhaps three full deckers in a morning (225 passengers). That means you then have to attract another 225 return passengers across the day. You'll get some in the morning out of Hamilton but not many after lunch.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You have a massive imbalance in ridership. It is weighted toward Glasgow in the morning but no return flows - the timetable backs that up. Then you have the morning commuters enjoying a relatively cheap journey for the mileage incurred, and off peak ridership dominated by concessions.

Now if they suddenly come up with a pricing formula that manages to counteract those issues, then great. No-one is saying that the X1 doesn't have loyal passengers; it just hasn't enough of them paying enough money. Remember these three things:

Note; buses are a business. They have to cover their costs and then some profit.
Anything that adds costs (like an extra bus, or new buses, or an investment in marketing, dancing girls, etc) then needs more passengers to pay for it.
If you cut fares, then you need more passengers to make the same money.

RailUK Forums

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Again, your thinking is flawed. Here's perhaps a more realistic way of looking at it Note: these are indicative figures as only First will actually know. Do not interpret as fact but just to show the way in which the figures might be used.

Monthly ticket holders are currently paying £3.16 per day for a return journey. Concessionary pass holders are probably attracting a similar revenue for a round trip. If you're lucky, very lucky, those people who pay full return fare might drag the figure per passenger up to £3.75 or £4.00 per journey? Let's be bold and assume £4 - makes the maths easier.

So if you have four vehicles that have to make £450 per day, then you need to make £1800 with your four buses. That means you have to attract 450 passengers per day. Doesn't seem a lot if you've got perhaps three full deckers in a morning (225 passengers). That means you then have to attract another 225 return passengers across the day. You'll get some in the morning out of Hamilton but not many after lunch.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You have a massive imbalance in ridership. It is weighted toward Glasgow in the morning but no return flows - the timetable backs that up. Then you have the morning commuters enjoying a relatively cheap journey for the mileage incurred, and off peak ridership dominated by concessions.

Now if they suddenly come up with a pricing formula that manages to counteract those issues, then great. No-one is saying that the X1 doesn't have loyal passengers; it just hasn't enough of them paying enough money. Remember these three things:

Note; buses are a business. They have to cover their costs and then some profit.

Anything that adds costs (like an extra bus, or new buses, or an investment in marketing, dancing girls, etc) then needs more passengers to pay for it.

If you cut fares, then you need more passengers to make the same money.

I've taken all of that on board the whole time. The only thing I done was quote your figure and I know how tough it'll be for them.

I don't think there's many services that have such an imbalance between directions of travel quite like the X1 and it is a major problem

TheGrandWazoo · 3 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
I've taken all of that on board the whole time. The only thing I done was quote your figure and I know how tough it'll be for them

Have you? You've not identified or estimated the average fare ACTUALLY paid? What the break even point might be? The impact of concessions? The lack of counter-cyclical flows?

I know it may seem that I'm being "rude" but I'm not. It is these questions that First are having to grapple with and why it's a problem with the X1.

awsnews · 3 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
I've taken all of that on board the whole time. The only thing I done was quote your figure and I know how tough it'll be for them.

I don't think there's many services that have such an imbalance between directions of travel quite like the X1 and it is a major problem

Try 'the one' for starters, several of the buses to the city in the morning don't come back in service or go on to something else. It also occurs in the evening going the other way to a lesser extent.

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

awsnews said:
Try 'the one' for starters, several of the buses to the city in the morning don't come back in service or go on to something else. It also occurs in the evening going the other way to a lesser extent.

Yeah the 1s are ridiculous tbh with the drops in service all of a sudden. Always going to a problem with an every 3 min service in the morning at one point then every 4 mins out of the city centre at peaks

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Have you? You've not identified or estimated the average fare ACTUALLY paid? What the break even point might be? The impact of concessions? The lack of counter-cyclical flows?

I know it may seem that I'm being "rude" but I'm not. It is these questions that First are having to grapple with and why it's a problem with the X1.

Yes I have, I've mentioned the concession issue and the counter-cyclical issue a few times. I already also said I wasn't familiar with most of the prices for the X1. First do have a lot of problems with the X1 and it'll be interesting to see how it being kept on will affect things. I will also say that the Bothwell and Uddingston idea wasn't mines either. It's an option but there's pros and cons with that as I've also previously said. Needing extra buses being the main one. Even with no recovery time at Davington Drive you'd need at least one bus and I've considered that.

The only way around the dead runs is having extra buses into Glasgow but even that is an issue because then driver pay, mileage and needing to cover that become an issue. I wouldn't even say the 255 and 263 would need the demand of extras either and there's enough 267s as it is so I don't even know the logical and right way around that and it's the same for the rest of their dead runs at peak times

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

Can we have some predictions for how long the X1 will last?

I'm shocked that I was right in that the pressure would keep it on and that's why I don't expect me to be right twice about it so I think it'll be gone in January/February at the latest because I see the number of passengers increasing but not enough overall

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

Back to the good old saying if not pessimistic, use it or lose it!

Drive my own car to the train station albeit take a busy train, it's more expensive yet overall more convenient and faster..

Or

Walk in the pouring rain to the x1 bus stop, wait for it, it may breakdown, it may be late, eventually when it does arrive, theres the underwhelming essence of old bus that's way out priced itself for what your being offered to travel in..

It is a company, and yes many of them wont gamble with there money, most likely this service won't see the light of the completed LEZ rollout.

The train on its own do not simply "take" passengers, there has to be meaningful reason why many have jumped ship over the years, in it's most basic, raw form the attitude to First in glasgow is appauling to say the least, this came about because first over the last 10 years have not really pulled the wait.

Look over to LCB, whilst there bathgate coach isn't taking much, the Ex2 Is no doubt doing better, but even then there were the doubters about those investments on coaches being stupid..

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
Back to the good old saying if not pessimistic, use it or lose it!

Drive my own car to the train station albeit take a busy train, it's more expensive yet overall more convenient and faster..

Or

Walk in the pouring rain to the x1 bus stop, wait for it, it may breakdown, it may be late, eventually when it does arrive, theres the underwhelming essence of old bus that's way out priced itself for what your being offered to travel in..

It is a company, and yes many of them wont gamble with there money, most likely this service won't see the light of the completed LEZ rollout.

The train on its own do not simply "take" passengers, there has to be meaningful reason why many have jumped ship over the years, in it's most basic, raw form the attitude to First in glasgow is appauling to say the least, this came about because first over the last 10 years have not really pulled the wait.

Look over to LCB, whilst there bathgate coach isn't taking much, the Ex2 Is no doubt doing better, but even then there were the doubters about those investments on coaches being stupid..

I agree with this a lot tbh. It's First's lack of consistent investment in new buses that's come back to haunt them now. People always complain about no shows and lateness from Hamilton into Glasgow in the morning on a daily basis tbh. Always said that the express buses should be pushed as their flagship buses but tbh with the exceptions of the 1s although the deckers aren't great and the E300s are beginning to falter too now yet the rest aren't pushed as flagship services at all.

There's the 1s, X1,X3,X4,X8,X11,X85,X87 and there's so many services that seem to manage so much better than these. Granted the X3,X11,X85 and X87 have decent buses now but they need to up their game a lot in a lot of aspects. Glasgow has the potential to be the biggest money maker by far for First but it won't be anywhere near if things keep going the same way

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

Only ever 2 things I've always believed in for operating public transport companies and they're this:

1) Investing in your fleet constantly is a must
2) Customer relations will make you or break you

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

I have driven buses for a few years, was born in glasgow and will never move away, I have certainly felt underwhelmed over what we are offered.

It's a sad fact that a modern life has became all about money, money, money, for those that say that money isnt everything, I would quietly say there wrong.

With respect to the e300s on the 1/1A and 2 only, they were in need of being disconsidered for such a routes, a B7RLE should've been the natural choice for such heavily demanding routes.

The original E300s certainly started the ball rolling much quicker on the way to the light weight, fuel efficiency guff we see in newer vehicles, of course operators did want this anyways, the e300s don't feel substantial enough for such routes, they never have been.

Gingerbus1991 · 3 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
Only ever 2 things I've always believed in for operating public transport companies and they're this:

1) Investing in your fleet constantly is a must
2) Customer relations will make you or break you

I am no expert, I wonder how much the 400 CITYs on the 500 cost compared to the standard 10.3m MMC buses normally bought.

I am led to believe however that a standard or basic decker cost roughly £200000, yet with the shiny wheels and a proper professional announcement system + screens like lothian buy into will increase that too £225000-ish, this doesn't seem a far stretch to pay habit more for something considerabley nicer and well thought out, the 400 CITYs particularly get my attention.

PaulMc7 · 3 Oct 2019

New buses on the 1s and 2s and maybe even the 3 would save so many buses for other routes plus are the 1s and 2s not their most profitable routes around?

I tried to find out the cost of some bus types and couldn't really get anything. It is a lot of money to deal with but I think most people could have seen the LEZ being announced coming ages ahead of when it actually did and First have shown that they didn't really plan for it hence the sudden burst of fleet movements to cover it.

There was always going to be fleet movements but there's been a lot more of them lately than any of us anticipated. I will say though the buses from Livingston with the dark blue paint are far nicer than the fairly bland colouring we have on everything else

Jordan Adam · 4 Oct 2019

From my experience in Glasgow the network in reality isn't that bad try going to any other city except Dundee/Edinburgh and you'll find the level of service much poorer. Even as a non-local (albeit bias as i am an enthusiasts with decent knowledge of the network) i find Glasgow easy enough to get around and the fare system as far as day tickets is concerned is again simple enough with the prices reflecting the coverage offered (Zone 1 'Local' ticket is a bit steep though).

The only downside is the condition of certain buses internally, however you've got to appreciate that an effort is being made, just look at the Geminis. Granted many of these buses should've been done years ago, but it's better late than never. There's no point moaning about what "should've been done then" when it's being done now. Although it should be kept in mind this is Glasgow we're talking about, it's always had problem with vandalism on buses and it's not something First can do much about. In the past whenever a Glasgow bus was sent to Aberdeen it would have any etched windows replaced. Part of the reason they got replaced is due to the fact etching on windows doesn't really happen in Aberdeen, so First wanted to avoid it becoming a 'trend', however within Glasgow etching is a known issue - so replacing the windows would be utterly pointless.

My guesses for new buses would be 'TheOne' and the 9/9A (the latter has already somewhat been confirmed). Possibly the X11 & X85/X87 to allow the E400MMCs currently there to move on to the 60/60A along side the Ex-FSE examples.

PaulMc7 said:
There was always going to be fleet movements but there's been a lot more of them lately than any of us anticipated. I will say though the buses from Livingston with the dark blue paint are far nicer than the fairly bland colouring we have on everything else

The reason Glasgow doesn't have a unique scheme is down to the fleet size, it wouldn't be possible given all the fleet movements. Although i do agree the lilac does look very bland on the unbranded buses.

Gingerbus1991 · 4 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
New buses on the 1s and 2s and maybe even the 3 would save so many buses for other routes plus are the 1s and 2s not their most profitable routes around?

I tried to find out the cost of some bus types and couldn't really get anything. It is a lot of money to deal with but I think most people could have seen the LEZ being announced coming ages ahead of when it actually did and First have shown that they didn't really plan for it hence the sudden burst of fleet movements to cover it.

It is in stark contrast to LB who invested in buses continually but in small amounts.

Even bidding for Green-Bus funding for hybrids, which must have done them some good PR, politically & fuel efficiency wise, I always wonder why Lothian continue to buy into heavy singles though considering every other operator buy light these days.

The 1/2s are always kept on there toes throughout the day.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
I am no expert, I wonder how much the 400 CITYs on the 500 cost compared to the standard 10.3m MMC buses normally bought.

I am led to believe however that a standard or basic decker cost roughly £200000, yet with the shiny wheels and a proper professional announcement system + screens like lothian buy into will increase that too £225000-ish, this doesn't seem a far stretch to pay habit more for something considerabley nicer and well thought out, the 400 CITYs particularly get my attention.

Jordan Adam said:
From my experience in Glasgow the network in reality isn't that bad try going to any other city except Dundee/Edinburgh and you'll find the level of service much poorer. Even as a non-local (albeit bias as i am an enthusiasts with decent knowledge of the network) i find Glasgow easy enough to get around and the fare system as far as day tickets is concerned is again simple enough with the prices reflecting the coverage offered (Zone 1 'Local' ticket is a bit steep though).

The only downside is the condition of certain buses internally, however you've got to appreciate that an effort is being made, just look at the Geminis. Granted many of these buses should've been done years ago, but it's better late than never. There's no point moaning about what "should've been done then" when it's being done now. Although it should be kept in mind this is Glasgow we're talking about, it's always had problem with vandalism on buses and it's not something First can do much about. In the past whenever a Glasgow bus was sent to Aberdeen it would have any etched windows replaced. Part of the reason they got replaced is due to the fact etching on windows doesn't really happen in Aberdeen, so First wanted to avoid it becoming a 'trend', however within Glasgow etching is a known issue - so replacing the windows would be utterly pointless.

My guesses for new buses would be 'TheOne' and the 9/9A (the latter has already somewhat been confirmed). Possibly the X11 & X85/X87 to allow the E400MMCs currently there to move on to the 60/60A along side the Ex-FSE examples.

The reason Glasgow doesn't have a unique scheme is down to the fleet size, it wouldn't be possible given all the fleet movements. Although i do agree the lilac does look very bland on the unbranded buses.

The lilac to me just screams "we could have tried to be appealing but left our inspiration at home" and I agree people here definitely don't help. I had someone cough all over the back of my head earlier today on a 1D and that's barely touching the root of the lack of manners here. I've never understood the pricing of the local zone tbh especially when areas that are so far apart can have tickets for the same price. The 6 being the best example. Clydebank to East Kilbride is up there in terms of mileage yet somehow stays in the cityzone the entire time. I feel it could be simplified a lot more as far as tickets go and there's plenty of people on a daily basis asking how much their ticket costs. The 1s would be the best move given how popular a service it is and how many vehicles could be moved onto other services. I also agree with the 9/9A too. Someone needs to win the war between First and Mcgills eventually on Paisley Road West and new buses would give First the edge.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
It is in stark contrast to LB who invested in buses continually but in small amounts.

Even bidding for Green-Bus funding for hybrids, which must have done them some good PR, politically & fuel efficiency wise, I always wonder why Lothian continue to buy into heavy singles though considering every other operator buy light these days.

The 1/2s are always kept on there toes throughout the day.

Definitely. LB get a lot of stick but they manage continual investment so well compared to other operators. The biggest problem with the 1s/2s is the bunching up because of one being late. It usually triggers a line of 4/5 being late because they trip over each other at Scotstoun a lot. I'm glad I have the tracker on my phone too from the app as it's badly needed with maybe the 1C as an exception into Glasgow

Gingerbus1991 · 4 Oct 2019

It isn't something seen in glasgow anymore of course, but I do wonder whether dual-door buses on said busy routes, the 2 for example having deckers and two-doors to speed things up, the problems with timekeeping surely can't be through partick to kelvingrove, the 2 and 77 both help out through there, both are busy however.

Jordan Adam · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
It is in stark contrast to LB who invested in buses continually but in small amounts.

Even bidding for Green-Bus funding for hybrids, which must have done them some good PR, politically & fuel efficiency wise, I always wonder why Lothian continue to buy into heavy singles though considering every other operator buy light these days.

The 1/2s are always kept on there toes throughout the day.

PaulMc7 said:
Definitely. LB get a lot of stick but they manage continual investment so well compared to other operators. The biggest problem with the 1s/2s is the bunching up because of one being late. It usually triggers a line of 4/5 being late because they trip over each other at Scotstoun a lot. I'm glad I have the tracker on my phone too from the app as it's badly needed with maybe the 1C as an exception into Glasgow

It's not fair in any way comparing LB to any other Scottish bus operator, Edinburgh is totally different to every other city and far easier to make money out of given the massive tourism industry, busy overpriced tour bus network, busy Airport, large university, lack of competition etc just to start. Anyone who expects First, Stagecoach, McGills (or anyone for that matter) to match their level of service and investment is clearly out of the loop or slightly deluded. That's not to say First Glasgow don't need to up their game, they do - It's just using LB as an example is not fair in any regard. Funnily enough the state of some of Lothians older Geminis is just as poor as Glasgows.

PaulMc7 said:
The lilac to me just screams "we could have tried to be appealing but left our inspiration at home" and I agree people here definitely don't help. I had someone cough all over the back of my head earlier today on a 1D and that's barely touching the root of the lack of manners here. I've never understood the pricing of the local zone tbh especially when areas that are so far apart can have tickets for the same price. The 6 being the best example. Clydebank to East Kilbride is up there in terms of mileage yet somehow stays in the cityzone the entire time. I feel it could be simplified a lot more as far as tickets go and there's plenty of people on a daily basis asking how much their ticket costs. The 1s would be the best move given how popular a service it is and how many vehicles could be moved onto other services. I also agree with the 9/9A too. Someone needs to win the war between First and Mcgills eventually on Paisley Road West and new buses would give First the edge.

The issue with the Lilac is that it looks good on paper and when fresh, but it depreciates quickly. I wouldn't say there's a lack of manners in Glasgow, i do think as a whole the city has a unfair reputation, however it still has lots of low income rough areas and sadly with that brings crime. At a financial stand point there's no point replacing a vandalised seat back if 10 minutes later it'll get vandalised again. I've seen people claim that if the level of service was better then this wouldn't happen, but that's simply not true.

The zone areas don't tend to reflect distance, but more profitability and affluence. In short you can bribe more money out of those that are a bit more affluent as they'll be more willing to pay 50p extra to travel the same distance etc.

Gingerbus1991 · 4 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
Definitely. LB get a lot of stick but they manage continual investment so well compared to other operators. The biggest problem with the 1s/2s is the bunching up because of one being late. It usually triggers a line of 4/5 being late because they trip over each other at Scotstoun a lot. I'm glad I have the tracker on my phone too from the app as it's badly needed with maybe the 1C as an exception into Glasgow

How does the tracker work for First?

I've visited edinburgh of course and park at ingleston P&R ride then use the tram to the city centre, sometimes I've jumped off the tram at the Gyle simply to sample the 22's, Transport for Edinburghs I think is excellent for tracking the actual buses on route.

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
Yes I have, I've mentioned the concession issue and the counter-cyclical issue a few times. I already also said I wasn't familiar with most of the prices for the X1. First do have a lot of problems with the X1 and it'll be interesting to see how it being kept on will affect things. I will also say that the Bothwell and Uddingston idea wasn't mines either. It's an option but there's pros and cons with that as I've also previously said. Needing extra buses being the main one. Even with no recovery time at Davington Drive you'd need at least one bus and I've considered that.

The only way around the dead runs is having extra buses into Glasgow but even that is an issue because then driver pay, mileage and needing to cover that become an issue. I wouldn't even say the 255 and 263 would need the demand of extras either and there's enough 267s as it is so I don't even know the logical and right way around that and it's the same for the rest of their dead runs at peak times

If you had fully grasped the implication of counter cyclical flows, you’d see the flaw in your 6 x day ticket comment. Same with the concessions.

You DID say you were unfamiliar with the fares. Ok but then find out the information (it is readily available) before advocating fare reductions?

As for diversions, that may not have been your idea but it was something you supported

PaulMc7 said:
With putting the X1 through Bothwell and Uddingston I think that's an idea worth trying.

It may not have been your idea but the point still remains the same. Add in resources means increased cost that has to recovered on a service that is already losing money and that is a big ask.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
How does the tracker work for First?

I've visited edinburgh of course and park at ingleston P&R ride then use the tram to the city centre, sometimes I've jumped off the tram at the Gyle simply to sample the 22's, Transport for Edinburghs I think is excellent for tracking the actual buses on route.

It barely works that well tbh. My bus today turned up 5mins after it said it was due and that happens an awful lot

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
It's not fair in any way comparing LB to any other Scottish bus operator, Edinburgh is totally different to every other city and far easier to make money out of given the massive tourism industry, busy overpriced tour bus network, busy Airport, large university, lack of competition etc just to start. Anyone who expects First, Stagecoach, McGills (or anyone for that matter) to match their level of service and investment is clearly out of the loop or slightly deluded. That's not to say First Glasgow don't need to up their game, they do - It's just using LB as an example is not fair in any regard. Funnily enough the state of some of Lothians older Geminis is just as poor as Glasgows.

The issue with the Lilac is that it looks good on paper and when fresh, but it depreciates quickly. I wouldn't say there's a lack of manners in Glasgow, i do think as a whole the city has a unfair reputation, however it still has lots of low income rough areas and sadly with that brings crime. At a financial stand point there's no point replacing a vandalised seat back if 10 minutes later it'll get vandalised again. I've seen people claim that if the level of service was better then this wouldn't happen, but that's simply not true.

The zone areas don't tend to reflect distance, but more profitability and affluence. In short you can bribe more money out of those that are a bit more affluent as they'll be more willing to pay 50p extra to travel the same distance etc.

Lothian is an operator apart.

You’re right that First do need to be better and have a consistently better standard. We all know of the sins of the past and the underinvestment with palming off of hammered ex London kit.

That legacy will take some time to tackle but it is being tackled. Whether the motivation is the LEZ or financial gain or altruism from Mr Jarvis is really not relevant. That it happens is what’s important. For 2020, you’d anticipate another slug of investment to get shot of the last of the Tridents and seriously eat into the Eclipses.

Gingerbus1991 · 4 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
It's not fair in any way comparing LB to any other Scottish bus operator, Edinburgh is totally different to every other city and far easier to make money out of given the massive tourism industry, busy overpriced tour bus network, busy Airport, large university, lack of competition etc just to start. Anyone who expects First, Stagecoach, McGills (or anyone for that matter) to match their level of service and investment is clearly out of the loop or slightly deluded. That's not to say First Glasgow don't need to up their game, they do - It's just using LB as an example is not fair in any regard. Funnily enough the state of some of Lothians older Geminis is just as poor as Glasgows.

The issue with the Lilac is that it looks good on paper and when fresh, but it depreciates quickly. I wouldn't say there's a lack of manners in Glasgow, i do think as a whole the city has a unfair reputation, however it still has lots of low income rough areas and sadly with that brings crime. At a financial stand point there's no point replacing a vandalised seat back if 10 minutes later it'll get vandalised again. I've seen people claim that if the level of service was better then this wouldn't happen, but that's simply not true.

The zone areas don't tend to reflect distance, but more profitability and affluence. In short you can bribe more money out of those that are a bit more affluent as they'll be more willing to pay 50p extra to travel the same distance etc.

I get that they offer two different levels of what you might call "quality", edinburgh generally is a more expensive place with far wealthier people living there.

However I question the motive of "less money = less investment", generally speaking, yes that is the case, but in this instance the relatively small purchases for there 2015 400s on the kirky expresses and the x11, why is it all of a sudden theres apparently millions more £'s appeared from an apparent no where, will all recent purchases be on tick or leases?

Glasgow does disrespect itself more so than other citys around Scotland unfortunately.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

Jordan Adam said:
It's not fair in any way comparing LB to any other Scottish bus operator, Edinburgh is totally different to every other city and far easier to make money out of given the massive tourism industry, busy overpriced tour bus network, busy Airport, large university, lack of competition etc just to start. Anyone who expects First, Stagecoach, McGills (or anyone for that matter) to match their level of service and investment is clearly out of the loop or slightly deluded. That's not to say First Glasgow don't need to up their game, they do - It's just using LB as an example is not fair in any regard. Funnily enough the state of some of Lothians older Geminis is just as poor as Glasgows.

The issue with the Lilac is that it looks good on paper and when fresh, but it depreciates quickly. I wouldn't say there's a lack of manners in Glasgow, i do think as a whole the city has a unfair reputation, however it still has lots of low income rough areas and sadly with that brings crime. At a financial stand point there's no point replacing a vandalised seat back if 10 minutes later it'll get vandalised again. I've seen people claim that if the level of service was better then this wouldn't happen, but that's simply not true.

The zone areas don't tend to reflect distance, but more profitability and affluence. In short you can bribe more money out of those that are a bit more affluent as they'll be more willing to pay 50p extra to travel the same distance etc.

TheGrandWazoo said:
Lothian is an operator apart.

You’re right that First do need to be better and have a consistently better standard. We all know of the sins of the past and the underinvestment with palming off of hammered ex London kit.

That legacy will take some time to tackle but it is being tackled. Whether the motivation is the LEZ or financial gain or altruism from Mr Jarvis is really not relevant. That it happens is what’s important. For 2020, you’d anticipate another slug of investment to get shot of the last of the Tridents and seriously eat into the Eclipses.

The problem in Glasgow isn't the investment imo it's more the stop-start nature of it. Yeah I don't think the level of service is terrible here but it's definitely going downwards rather than up. The reputation comes from so many people getting away with their actions and sadly it turns people off of buses more than anything. I think if actions were taken more and more on people who commit crimes on transport then it would slowly stop happening. It does come down to upbringing too and sadly being dragged up rather than raised up is common here. I use myself as an example tbh. I have a very poor upbringing but I've been raised well enough to know right from wrong and sadly that's not everyone.

I can see another 2 fairly big batches of new buses come in next year tbh. Probably around 180/200 buses with a lot gone to scrap and some to other operations

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
I get that they offer two different levels of what you might call "quality", edinburgh generally is a more expensive place with far wealthier people living there.

However I question the motive of "less money = less investment", generally speaking, yes that is the case, but in this the relatively small purchases for there 2015 400s on the kirky expresses and the x11, why is it all of a sudden theres apparently millions more £'s appeared from an apparent no where, will all recent purchases be on tick or leases?

Glasgow does disrespect itself more so than other citys around Scotland unfortunately.

In 2013-5, First were spreading the love so most OpCos got investment. Now you have very few places getting the capital spend - Glasgow is a major beneficiary.

In contrast, First Cymru has returned £12m over three years and hasn’t seen a new bus.

Bigger picture and all that.

Jordan Adam · 4 Oct 2019

PaulMc7 said:
With putting the X1 through Bothwell and Uddingston I think that's an idea worth trying. Could take off the short work 255s too and that would be replaced by the X1 plus it wouldn't add too much journey time. 15/20mins max

Based on this idea they'd probably just be better renumbering the short working 255s as a X55 and extending them direct to Glasgow via the M74. The Hamilton section of the X1 would then be converted to a town service, because keeping it as an extension of the X55 would be pointless. There's probably some savings that could be made there, but you've got to question, is there really demand for such a service to 12BPH to Glasgow?

TheGrandWazoo said:
Lothian is an operator apart.

You’re right that First do need to be better and have a consistently better standard. We all know of the sins of the past and the underinvestment with palming off of hammered ex London kit.

That legacy will take some time to tackle but it is being tackled. Whether the motivation is the LEZ or financial gain or altruism from Mr Jarvis is really not relevant. That it happens is what’s important. For 2020, you’d anticipate another slug of investment to get shot of the last of the Tridents and seriously eat into the Eclipses.

Agreed, i think Jarvis is a decent MD and has done a fairly good job giving the difficult circumstances when he joined (pending Aberdeen driver contracts, "Midland Mess" & Lack of investment in Glasgow to name a few). Glasgow's fleet totals nearly 800 buses, so this sort of work cannot be tackled over night, or even in a year. However any step forward is a step in the right direction and should be commended regardless.

CraigonGLESGA said:
I get that they offer two different levels of what you might call "quality", edinburgh generally is a more expensive place with far wealthier people living there.

However I question the motive of "less money = less investment", generally speaking, yes that is the case, but in this instance the relatively small purchases for there 2015 400s on the kirky expresses and the x11, why is it all of a sudden theres apparently millions more £'s appeared from an apparent no where, will all recent purchases be on tick or leases?

Glasgow does disrespect itself more so than other citys around Scotland unfortunately.

Simple... In the period when Glasgow gained no new buses other First Opcos (particularly FWOE) were getting large numbers of new vehicles. The E400s in 2015 were actually bought for the 75, but were moved on to the Express network at the time due to issues with the start stop systems (less stops on the expresses).

Gingerbus1991 · 4 Oct 2019

TheGrandWazoo said:
Lothian is an operator apart.

You’re right that First do need to be better and have a consistently better standard. We all know of the sins of the past and the underinvestment with palming off of hammered ex London kit.

That legacy will take some time to tackle but it is being tackled. Whether the motivation is the LEZ or financial gain or altruism from Mr Jarvis is really not relevant. That it happens is what’s important. For 2020, you’d anticipate another slug of investment to get shot of the last of the Tridents and seriously eat into the Eclipses.

Of course for the general public at least, not a truer word spoke

TheGrandWazoo said:
If you had fully grasped the implication of counter cyclical flows, you’d see the flaw in your 6 x day ticket comment. Same with the concessions.

You DID say you were unfamiliar with the fares. Ok but then find out the information (it is readily available) before advocating fare reductions?

As for diversions, that may not have been your idea but it was something you supported

It may not have been your idea but the point still remains the same. Add in resources means increased cost that has to recovered on a service that is already losing money and that is a big ask.

As Paul pointed out though, what happens then if the short working 255's were removed in this case, provided the full-length 255 and x1 via Bothwell/Uddingston could interlink to maintain every 15 minutes from Uddingston to Hamilton Town Centre?

TheGrandWazoo · 4 Oct 2019

CraigonGLESGA said:
Of course for the general public at least, not a truer word spoke

As Paul pointed out though, what happens then if the short working 255's were removed in this case, provided the full-length 255 and x1 via Bothwell/Uddingston could interlink to maintain every 15 minutes from Uddingston to Hamilton Town Centre?

If that’s achievable with no increase to the PVR, then yes, but is it? As I say, if you do need to put more resources in, then naturally you need more passengers to cover that.

PaulMc7 · 4 Oct 2019

Could even split the idea like this:

255-Glasgow to Hamilton every 30 mins
X55- Hamilton, High Earnock to Glasgow every 30 mins and advertise a bit

or

same 255 but make the X1 in Hamilton a more direct route and have a local service serve more of the X1 route as the Hamilton part is actually even a minute longer than Hamilton centre into Glasgow

The problem is that you'd need more buses more than likely because I don't even think a 3 way split like this below would work:

255 as it is
225 Powburn Toll to High Earnock
X1 Hamilton Bus Station to Glasgow

I know the 227/229 interlink with each other too but could they cover part of the Hamilton end of the X1?

I will also say I don't think the demand for 12 buses an hour to Glasgow is there unless the bus stops more. The 267 is the most frequent by far and it's where it covers that leads to that. I think there's been areas killed by having their services tampered with. The 4 being taken out of Knightswood being one and the X4 isn't great at all. It was the west end link people used more than anything from there outwith peaks.

The removal of the 42 as well. Having that run with it's old route to QEUH from Drumchapel would maybe have worked better than the 16 did plus it was a great option to have into the west end and top of the city centre which the 1C doesn't offer

First Greater Glasgow

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member