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Battery Powered Electrostars for Southern

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Bald Rick

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Think there's a 1:75 gradient from Uckfield up to Crowborough & a descent from there to Eridge (not sure of that gradient). Would need some decent battery power to get climb the incline (esp if 8/12 car) from a standing start.

The Oxted Lines are quite hilly (not too bad on the electric sections) but south of Hurst Green would be interesting.

Hills are largely irrelevant to battery vehicles. The traction motors can’t tell where the electrons come from.

To put it into context.:

A 4 car DC Class 377 weighs a nominal 174t tare. With all seats taken it will be 200t give or take.
This train has a maximum power of 1.2MW.

1.2MWh of battery pack weighs roughly 8 tonnes. That would be an extra 4%. Or rather less if the ‘ballast’ is removed (the deadweight added to D.C. only units to have them in the same spec as units with a transformer).

A battery of this size would enable the train to be on full power for an hour without any recharging. On a typical Uckfield cycle, the 171s are travelling off the juice for 96 minutes, of which 25 are stationary, a further 15 or so are braking and another 15-30 minutes are coasting or on less than full power. Only about 30 minutes are on full power, if that, and that includes the hills.

Of course a train that is braking will be recharging the batteries, particularly so when going downhill. All told that leaves plenty ‘in the tank’ for a full return trip. Add in a short section of third rail at Uckfield (live only when a train is on it) for a 10-12 minute top up, and it’s really rather straightforward.
 
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Bald Rick

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That’s a lot of money. How much will developing, building, and maintaining battery trains cost?

A lot lot less. Especially as the development is done. Battery FLIRTs are running in Germany with a range of almost 100 miles off the wire.

Maintaining a battery EMU is effectively the same as maintaining an EMU. Ask any Tesla owner how much it costs to maintain their batteries.
 

PomWombat

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Hills are largely irrelevant to battery vehicles. The traction motors can’t tell where the electrons come from.

Going uphill is conversion of battery energy into potential energy, instead of kinetic energy. Once you're at the top, you get to convert it all back to kinetic energy or (when braking) chemical energy back in the battery.

The key thing, though, is to have enough in the tank to get to the top of the last hill.

I recently did a test drive in an electric e-golf, and tried this theory out...

I drove up Sutton bank in the North Yorkshire moors, and watched the range display drop by over 20 miles in the course of less than 2 miles. But once at the top, we then drove the long gradual descent towards Pickering with that range figure not changing for a long period ... then eventually increasing above the original range before we started climbing. We definitely got that 20 miles back again.
 

Roast Veg

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Not to get off Topic but I think the 707s would be a good shout for SN Metro. GTR already have experience with these Desiro City units. Plus they've got DOO Equipment for 10 car.

Then send the 4 cars that were paired with 2x 377/3s to replace 455s. Good shout.

Too good and the railway doesn't run on common sense.
This seems like the most sensible suggestion to me also - if they can be fully utilised then all the 377/3s would be made available plus about 14(?) other 377s. Barely a dent in the 455s mind, but if there's depot space then it's good for reliability.
 

Fincra5

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Those that work around third rail naturally understand it. The issue is those that don’t understand it, which is pretty much everyone else.

When I was a kid Network Rail (Railtrack) and the local TOCs used to come round to schools and do Live Education on the dangers of railways. Perhaps this is the answer to the scary 3rd Rail safety issues.
 

Mikey C

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When I was a kid Network Rail (Railtrack) and the local TOCs used to come round to schools and do Live Education on the dangers of railways. Perhaps this is the answer to the scary 3rd Rail safety issues.

They still do. The football club I support's community trust does work on educating children on the dangers of railway tracks and 3rd rail too
 

Bald Rick

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Yes they still do. Regularly. I’ve done it myself.

And yet people still go on to the tracks and get electrocuted. Most recently on Saturday.
 

Fincra5

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Would be interested as to why the ORR see 3rd Rail Electrification as so unsafe. How many deaths/ injuries are caused by it vs say AC. Obviously AC is harder to come into contact with given the height... I know of that poor chap at St Leonards Depot... I mean 3rd Rail is used across the world, in many versions.

Interesting snippet from an older BBC Story:

Electrified track poses one type of danger and in parts of the country where a third rail is used to deliver power, people trespassing on the line can easily touch it accidentally -suffering severe injury or death.

Part of the danger lies in the fact that when people touch the rail, they "stick" to it and the emergency services cannot help until the power is switched off.

And the problem is not solved by having overhead power lines instead. In wet weather the electricity can arc through the air and hit people four feet away.



And its good to know they still do Mikey :)
 
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paul1609

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If it was done at the same price as the cheapest AC electrification in this country recently, and there was no need for another feeder station (in my view very unlikely given the distance), then it would not be less than £100m.
£100million on the existing route mileage is over £2.6million per mile.
The absolute maximum load is 3 "electrostar" trains at 1.2 Mw
The current linespeed is 40 mph between Doleham and Ore, 60 mph between Doleham and Ashford.
There are 20 mph speed restrictions at Winchelsea (level crossing), Rye (loop), Appledore (off Single section) and Ashford Junction.
Every train currently stops at Rye, Appledore and Ham Street.
I'd suggest you could achieve the current service with a basic tram like catenary even if it had a speed restriction of say 50 mph.
Im sure that when the Ayr Electrification was inaugurated it had a single feed in the Paisley area that supplied the line all the way to Ayr with no problems so i don't see why you couldn't achieve what's basically an hourly service passing at Rye from Ashford.
If you need 2 feeds for backup reasons I'd suggest that this would probably be relatively cheaply achieved by an auto start generator.
The only trains that currently pass on the double track section between Appledore and Ashford are the Rye Shuttles which pass just outside Appledore station if you are looking to save more money I reckon you could single Ham Street to Ashford saving another 6 route miles.
I reckon if the rail industry had a can do attitude rather than just presenting Gold Plated or in the case of GW Electrification Solid Gold scenarios it could be done for a lot less than £100 million?
 

Bald Rick

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£100million on the existing route mileage is over £2.6million per mile.
The absolute maximum load is 3 "electrostar" trains at 1.2 Mw
The current linespeed is 40 mph between Doleham and Ore, 60 mph between Doleham and Ashford.
There are 20 mph speed restrictions at Winchelsea (level crossing), Rye (loop), Appledore (off Single section) and Ashford Junction.
Every train currently stops at Rye, Appledore and Ham Street.
I'd suggest you could achieve the current service with a basic tram like catenary even if it had a speed restriction of say 50 mph.
Im sure that when the Ayr Electrification was inaugurated it had a single feed in the Paisley area that supplied the line all the way to Ayr with no problems so i don't see why you couldn't achieve what's basically an hourly service passing at Rye from Ashford.
If you need 2 feeds for backup reasons I'd suggest that this would probably be relatively cheaply achieved by an auto start generator.
The only trains that currently pass on the double track section between Appledore and Ashford are the Rye Shuttles which pass just outside Appledore station if you are looking to save more money I reckon you could single Ham Street to Ashford saving another 6 route miles.
I reckon if the rail industry had a can do attitude rather than just presenting Gold Plated or in the case of GW Electrification Solid Gold scenarios it could be done for a lot less than £100 million?

It’s not about power draw, it’s about providing 50 track km of posts, wires, signalling, civils, etc etc.

£2m per single track km is just about the lowest cost for this sort of project. And that’s at a price basis of a couple of years ago, and didn’t involve putting posts up on a marsh.
 

paul1609

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It’s not about power draw, it’s about providing 50 track km of posts, wires, signalling, civils, etc etc.

£2m per single track km is just about the lowest cost for this sort of project. And that’s at a price basis of a couple of years ago, and didn’t involve putting posts up on a marsh.
Actually only about 25km of Marshlink is on the marshes and levels. Whilst Im not expert at Geos quite a lot of that is farmland that was recovered or enclosed 700 years ago.
How does the £2m/ km cost compare to similar work in the EU?
What sort of Energy Efficiency do the flirt Battery mus achieve, I imagine it will be horrendous.
 

Bald Rick

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Actually only about 25km of Marshlink is on the marshes and levels. Whilst Im not expert at Geos quite a lot of that is farmland that was recovered or enclosed 700 years ago.
How does the £2m/ km cost compare to similar work in the EU?
What sort of Energy Efficiency do the flirt Battery mus achieve, I imagine it will be horrendous.

Don’t know about other countries. But it doesn’t really matter - we have done lots of electrification in this country over the last 7-8 years, all competitively tendered, and using expertise and resource from all over the U.K., Europe and the world. I really struggle with the concept that we can wave a magic wand and suddenly electrification will be half the price.

One key difference with the rest of Europe is that when they electrify they don’t have to do route clearance for the wires as their structures are usually high enough. We do.

Re the marshes. You are quite right only about half the route is on marsh. That is still a lot of big piles. Most of the rest of the route is easy to spot as it is a corridor of trees. These will all have to come down. This alone will be millions.
 

paul1609

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Don’t know about other countries. But it doesn’t really matter - we have done lots of electrification in this country over the last 7-8 years, all competitively tendered, and using expertise and resource from all over the U.K., Europe and the world. I really struggle with the concept that we can wave a magic wand and suddenly electrification will be half the price.

One key difference with the rest of Europe is that when they electrify they don’t have to do route clearance for the wires as their structures are usually high enough. We do.

Re the marshes. You are quite right only about half the route is on marsh. That is still a lot of big piles. Most of the rest of the route is easy to spot as it is a corridor of trees. These will all have to come down. This alone will be millions.

Romney and its associated Marshes are generally flat agricultural land that was Inned from the sea in between the 12 and 17th century and is well drained (it has to be as most of it is below sea level). Its not what one not familiar with the area would associate as being marsh. I can't see that it would be particularly difficult to pile for the lightweight type of overhead necessary for a 60 mph branchline. For all of the marsh section bar 2 miles between Appledore and The Military Canal Bridge you have the advantage of having plenty of room as its single line on a previously double line formation.

The vegetation is mostly scrub particularly where the line has been singled there's relatively few mature trees on the Marsh due to the winds. On the approach to Ore Tunnel the line does run through wooded areas but the railway property has a wide corridor where the trees have been cut back for embankment stabilisation and also for access to Ore Tunnel.

You say that you have gone out to competitive tender for the electrification works but thats not really true. You've flooded the market with poorly planned schemes and then divided up the excessive workload between relatively few contractors who've quoted you sky high initial prices as a result, when it became clear that what was planned was impractical/ impossible your contractors have hit you with eye watering priced variation orders.
 

hwl

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Going uphill is conversion of battery energy into potential energy, instead of kinetic energy. Once you're at the top, you get to convert it all back to kinetic energy or (when braking) chemical energy back in the battery.

If you believe in GCSE Physics that is.

In reality the best conversion rate under optimum conditions for traction electronics is ~93% with more lost in battery charging/discharging. Then there are the auxiliary loads such as air compressors, HVAC and lighting. The air con alone can be 30kW/coach. Hence the situation isn't that dissimilar to regenerative braking in general the question is just where the electrons head to for a while
 
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Regarding suggestions made above that "tram like catenary" could be used on Marshlink instead of battery powered Electrostars.

OHL of this type can be found on "main lines" in France - examples which come to mind are between Lille and the Belgian border and on the route taken by TGVs between St Andre le Gaz and Chambery.

No doubt it could therefore be used on Marshlink, but how do costs compare with "traditional" OHL? As much of the eastern end is over reclaimed land, I guess substantial piling/foundations will be required whatever type of OHL is used, but would there be significant savings from using "tram like catenary"? And would such savings - if there are any - be sufficient to make electrification a better option than to have battery Electrostars (assuming, of course, that they could bridge the gap between Ashford and Ore)?
 

paul1609

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Regarding suggestions made above that "tram like catenary" could be used on Marshlink instead of battery powered Electrostars.

OHL of this type can be found on "main lines" in France - examples which come to mind are between Lille and the Belgian border and on the route taken by TGVs between St Andre le Gaz and Chambery.

No doubt it could therefore be used on Marshlink, but how do costs compare with "traditional" OHL? As much of the eastern end is over reclaimed land, I guess substantial piling/foundations will be required whatever type of OHL is used, but would there be significant savings from using "tram like catenary"? And would such savings - if there are any - be sufficient to make electrification a better option than to have battery Electrostars (assuming, of course, that they could bridge the gap between Ashford and Ore)?

A Marshlink AC electrification also has the cost advantage that HS1/ Ashford International AC Supply was hugely over specified based on a far more intensive Eurostar service than has ever or is ever likely to be provided and should easily be able to provide a maximum of 3 Electrostars on the AC section. There are also very few over bridges.
The DC charged Electrostar Battery Multiple unit is totally untested and the class 379 test train would have been impractical in normal service because the batteries were life expired after 3 months tests which were mostly under the wires anyway.
 

Argyle_mikey

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Punters won’t switch from Uckfield to Brighton or Hastings Lines just because of seat comfort ! Annual seasons on the Uckfield Line are *about* 30% cheaper than those other lines. Commuters would sit on an ironing board if it saved them a couple of grand.

Winchelsea would easily take a three car train. Three Oaks and Doleham are one car only.

I’m guessing the reason we rarely see 4 car 171’s on the Marshlink at weekends (when they’re really needed) is the hassle of moving them down from Selhurst. There were instances of plenty of punters being left behind at Rye on summer weekends, hence the promise to MLAG of 4 cars, more often. These were pretty rare though. So near-empty 4 car units toddled up to London Bridge from Uckfield, whilst Marshlink customers were - on occasion - pressed against the windows.

https://www.ryenews.org.uk/news/changes-in-prospect-on-the-marshlink

Mike
 

Chrisgr31

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Rumours going around that 377506 is the test unit for the project.

Is that a South Eastern unit? There appear to be 23 class 377/5s so they could replace the 20 Class 171's and it would mean an increase in length of all services on the Marshlink, and ensure all Uckfield peak services are the correct length which would be 12 carriages. What is the seating formation in them?!

Other question then becomes what replaces them on South Eastern!
 

Doomotron

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Is that a South Eastern unit? There appear to be 23 class 377/5s so they could replace the 20 Class 171's and it would mean an increase in length of all services on the Marshlink, and ensure all Uckfield peak services are the correct length which would be 12 carriages. What is the seating formation in them?!

Other question then becomes what replaces them on South Eastern!
442s?

I'm joking.

It will probably be 379s.
 

Fincra5

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Still seems daft to me to make an DV unit a Battery Unit. It means the removal of the MOSL Motor Converter Modules making for a rather slow train.

Unless they look to remove the AC equipment on the PTOSL and have the battery packs there... but that seems less likely; as the, rather unsucessful, Cl379 Battery Project required the removal of the MOSL MCMs.
 

edwin_m

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313s have old-fashioned camshaft controllers and no regenerative brak
Still seems daft to me to make an DV unit a Battery Unit. It means the removal of the MOSL Motor Converter Modules making for a rather slow train.

Unless they look to remove the AC equipment on the PTOSL and have the battery packs there... but that seems less likely; as the, rather unsucessful, Cl379 Battery Project required the removal of the MOSL MCMs.
The converted 379 still had to operate on AC so there was no option to remove the AC equipment. For a DC unit the best option might be to take one of the sub-classes designed with but not fitted with AC equipment, where I believe there is ballast instead so the weight distribution isn't affected.
 

Southern Dvr

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I suspect they’ve chosen a 5 car as the shoes will need to be raised when not on juice in order to avoid them being knocked off!
 

lewisf

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I suspect they’ve chosen a 5 car as the shoes will need to be raised when not on juice in order to avoid them being knocked off!
I’d be a little surprised if there were any offending items on the Uckfield branch seeing as it’s in deepest darkest Southern territory, but then this is the railway we’re talking about here.
 

Prestige15

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Or just convert the line into 3rd rail, I'm not sure of the cost for doing that but im pretty sure it would be simpler and quicker
 

Southern Dvr

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Let’s not open the electrify route discussion again. It’s been done to a death.

standard practice these days is that if you go ‘off juice territory’ you should lift or remove the shoes. Just in case.
 
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