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End of the X90 Coach Service

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Bookd

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It mirrors the decline and elimination of Green Line in the 1970s and 1980s - each cut loses regular passengers if they have any possible viable alternative. An unexpected half hour, or even hour's, wait beside a busy 'A' road with HGVs splashing past can be a killer.
In the seventies Green Line became very unreliable due to traffic delays which wrecked the timetable, but also due to staff shortages at the time. In those days the morning Radio London traffic news would include a long list of Green Line cancellations and regular passengers who could not rely on the service would give up and find an alternative.
I suggest that frequency may be less important than reliabilty.
 
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overthewater

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Is there a date for the Megabus / Citylink Panoramas to enter service? Presumably the evaluation of these on the Glasgow to Edinburgh route will be more relevant than the Anglo-Scottish Megabus services.
The Megabus ones have been built they are entering service soon. They have already been named.

A pic of what looks to be complete new Glasgow Airlink decker can be seen in this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/glasgow-to-edinburgh-airport-air.192910/
 

Busaholic

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In the seventies Green Line became very unreliable due to traffic delays which wrecked the timetable, but also due to staff shortages at the time. In those days the morning Radio London traffic news would include a long list of Green Line cancellations and regular passengers who could not rely on the service would give up and find an alternative.
I suggest that frequency may be less important than reliabilty.
Which was rather the point I was seeking to make, obviously not very effectively! The regular passenger, knowing when his/her coach was due, arrives at the stop and has that 'unexpected' half hour or hour's wait. A couple of 'unexpected' occurrences within a short period leads to it being half-expected, then probable, by which time the bird has flown, never to be seen again. Biggest case study, the 721 Aldgate to Brentwood, still every 12 minutes all day in the early 1970s, gone without replacement a decade later.
 

goldisgood

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The Oxford Tube has previously been getting new coaches every 5 years and on this basis new coaches were due during the summer. The fact that this hasn't happened says a lot about the state of the London-Oxford coach market, clearly it's no longer pulling in the numbers to justify the level of investment of previous years. The Oxford Tube used to be the biggest earner for Stagecoach Oxfordshire but I believe it's now either the 1 or the S1 that brings the most revenue?
Many people have said that the coaches not being a replaced is a sign of the service not doing so well - whilst maybe the usage has dropped slightly, the withdrawal of the X90 should help to improve usage slightly as I'd expect most passengers still using it to transfer to the Oxford Tube. I'd say that Oxfordshire probably need to spend their funds more on upgrading their bus fleet - the coaches are still in pretty good condition and they are ULEZ compliant, I don't see any reason to replace them prematurely?
In terms of the biggest earners, I'd say you're right on the mark with the 1 and S1. They are both busy services, and the S1 is more often than not packed out at peak times in both directions! All the services can get busy, even the less frequent routes (particularly the 3A and S9) have exceedingly busy runs which are full and standing.
 

PeterC

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Which was rather the point I was seeking to make, obviously not very effectively! The regular passenger, knowing when his/her coach was due, arrives at the stop and has that 'unexpected' half hour or hour's wait. A couple of 'unexpected' occurrences within a short period leads to it being half-expected, then probable, by which time the bird has flown, never to be seen again. Biggest case study, the 721 Aldgate to Brentwood, still every 12 minutes all day in the early 1970s, gone without replacement a decade later.
The 721 was a nice example of how a number of small(ish) issues built up.
There always was an excellent parallel rail service.
LT only bus passes moved passengers onto parallel Central services
OPO on the 721 made it slower than the 86, which remained Routemaster operated, despite only calling at alternate stops.
Increasing traffic congestion was a problem and was certainly what moved me from a door to door commute by bus from Brentwood to Barking with one change to taking the train to Ilford with long walks at each end.
 

Busaholic

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The 721 was a nice example of how a number of small(ish) issues built up.
There always was an excellent parallel rail service.
LT only bus passes moved passengers onto parallel Central services
OPO on the 721 made it slower than the 86, which remained Routemaster operated, despite only calling at alternate stops.
Increasing traffic congestion was a problem and was certainly what moved me from a door to door commute by bus from Brentwood to Barking with one change to taking the train to Ilford with long walks at each end.
To which might be added, if the author and photographer Jim Blake is to be believed, the downgrading to Leyland Nationals making the final straw. On what level could these be said to be coaches?
 

overthewater

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Has stagecoach been using Oxfordshire as a cash cow? Is there any Lez plans for Oxford and if so I wouldn't waste the money right now. Mind you someone in Stagecoach could have said well... why are we replacing them every 5 years? most other places have deal with longer waiting periods, look at 900 the stock is 8 years old and just getting replaced now. X5 are not getting replaced this year. Also are the tubes leased? if not where are the deckers going to go?
 

goldisgood

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Has stagecoach been using Oxfordshire as a cash cow? Is there any Lez plans for Oxford and if so I wouldn't waste the money right now. Mind you someone in Stagecoach could have said well... why are we replacing them every 5 years? most other places have deal with longer waiting periods, look at 900 the stock is 8 years old and just getting replaced now. X5 are not getting replaced this year. Also are the tubes leased? if not where are the deckers going to go?
I'm not sure if they have been using it as a cash cow, but a few years back they did have the highest profit margins in the country! There has been a definite lack of investment for the last 2 years, but hopefully that will be made up over the last few years.
As I have said, there really is little need to upgrade the Oxford Tube fleet - they are Euro 6 compliant and free to operate in all planned zones until 2030! It makes far more sense to upgrade the buses which need to be Euro 6 or even electric compatible very soon.
There are plans for a phased zero-emission zone in Oxford to replace the current low emission zone, which will see buses requiring Euro 6 next year. Lots of buses are currently seeing exhaust upgrades for this, such as Arriva's Enviro 400s which are receiving the upgrades at the moment I think?
 

PeterC

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To which might be added, if the author and photographer Jim Blake is to be believed, the downgrading to Leyland Nationals making the final straw. On what level could these be said to be coaches?
As a regular user with RTs, RCLs and the Nationals on that route I did prefer the routemasters but never found the Nationals to be an issue apart from the slower boarding. No coach quality vehicles were used in LT or NBC days.
 

Busaholic

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As a regular user with RTs, RCLs and the Nationals on that route I did prefer the routemasters but never found the Nationals to be an issue apart from the slower boarding. No coach quality vehicles were used in LT or NBC days.
I heard it said that Green Line inspectors at Aldgate were unimpressed with coaches arriving in the wrong order on the 721, so bunching was common: the 'follow my leader' principle. Any idea whether there was some truth in this?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Has stagecoach been using Oxfordshire as a cash cow? Is there any Lez plans for Oxford and if so I wouldn't waste the money right now. Mind you someone in Stagecoach could have said well... why are we replacing them every 5 years? most other places have deal with longer waiting periods, look at 900 the stock is 8 years old and just getting replaced now. X5 are not getting replaced this year. Also are the tubes leased? if not where are the deckers going to go?

Think you'll find that Oxford has had a Euro V emissions zone since 2014 IIRC and they are now moving to Euro VI by the end of 2020. The Euro V requirement meant that Oxfordshire had already invested in readiness so that by 2015, it had the lowest average fleet age of any Stagecoach opco. Therefore, the need for fleet renewal hasn't been so great in recent years.

They have still had some investment with new vehicles. The S1 Gold fleet has, perhaps surprisingly, had to last a year or two longer than perhaps anticipated though in contrast, Banbury depot received new e300 (Gold) and e200mmc for the S4 and 500, replacing vehicles that were only about 4 years old. The S1 fleet is being replaced imminently and there will be either a need for further new fleet and/or retrofits to meet the requirements of the 2020 deadline.

The X5 fleet is, of course, not Stagecoach Oxfordshire and isn't even 5 years old yet.
 

NorthOxonian

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Has stagecoach been using Oxfordshire as a cash cow? Is there any Lez plans for Oxford and if so I wouldn't waste the money right now. Mind you someone in Stagecoach could have said well... why are we replacing them every 5 years? most other places have deal with longer waiting periods, look at 900 the stock is 8 years old and just getting replaced now. X5 are not getting replaced this year. Also are the tubes leased? if not where are the deckers going to go?

There hasn't been much recent investment, but Stagecoach in Oxfordshire have pretty young stock, both compared to other Stagecoach operations and all bus companies in general. But to be fair - they've invested very heavily in recent memory, so the key interurban routes are Gold, and the quality of operation is very high, so it's not surprising their reaping their reward now.
 

PeterC

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I heard it said that Green Line inspectors at Aldgate were unimpressed with coaches arriving in the wrong order on the 721, so bunching was common: the 'follow my leader' principle. Any idea whether there was some truth in this?
I think that I only used the whole length of the route once in my life. My normal travel was between Romford and Brentwood and there was no bunching at this end of the route.
 

Busaholic

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I think that I only used the whole length of the route once in my life. My normal travel was between Romford and Brentwood and there was no bunching at this end of the route.
I saw none too when I was sent to do some 'observations' on the route, the reasons for which were never conveyed to me. Whether 'red' buses would try to make something of the Brentwood to Ilford section, say, in GLC days and gradual retrenchment from beyond the London boundary is doubtful. I know the very rough loadings figures I handed over would not have encouraged LT!
 

overthewater

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Where are the coaches that are being released from this route going to end up?
 

A0wen

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To which might be added, if the author and photographer Jim Blake is to be believed, the downgrading to Leyland Nationals making the final straw. On what level could these be said to be coaches?

You couldn't, but by the same token RMCs, RFs and RTs were little different to their bus allocated sisters.

The first "coaches" postwar for Green Line were the Reliances (RCs and RPs) but they were really express buses as well with BET style bus bodies and high-backed seating.

The first "real" coaches Green Line saw were the Reliances delivered in the late 70s (RS / RB) which had proper coach bodies on them, they were followed by a small batch of Leopards and then the largish number of Tigers. But Green Line ridership was in freefall by then in any case.
 

A0wen

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In the seventies Green Line became very unreliable due to traffic delays which wrecked the timetable, but also due to staff shortages at the time. In those days the morning Radio London traffic news would include a long list of Green Line cancellations and regular passengers who could not rely on the service would give up and find an alternative.
I suggest that frequency may be less important than reliabilty.

It's both - frequency matters in that if you have a service which is less than hourly missing one or finding one cancelled is a much bigger inconvenience than if its a 30 minute frequency.
 

Bletchleyite

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Shame when historic routes are withdrawn. Bit like local pubs closing down

It is, however, an awful lot easier to reinstate a bus route than to reopen a pub that's been turned into a house or reopen a railway that's got an industrial estate built across the trackbed. So it could be back at some point if the circumstances change.

Of course, the main reason for the death of this route is that it's gone from a very poor and expensive rail service by one company to a rather better and slightly less expensive rail service by two companies.
 

Ianno87

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It is, however, an awful lot easier to reinstate a bus route than to reopen a pub that's been turned into a house or reopen a railway that's got an industrial estate built across the trackbed. So it could be back at some point if the circumstances change.

I wonder if there's ever been a successful re-instatement of a bus route like this?
 

Journeyman

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This came as quite a surprise. I lived in Headington when I was a student at Brookes in the late nineties, and hardly anyone used the train then - not very frequent Turbos at rather extortionate prices didn't attract much trade, and Oxford station was a bit out of the way.

Goes to show rail investment pays off. As others have said, increasing congestion and improved rail services did much to slowly kill off Green Line.
 

NorthOxonian

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This came as quite a surprise. I lived in Headington when I was a student at Brookes in the late nineties, and hardly anyone used the train then - not very frequent Turbos at rather extortionate prices didn't attract much trade, and Oxford station was a bit out of the way.

Goes to show rail investment pays off. As others have said, increasing congestion and improved rail services did much to slowly kill off Green Line.

The Oxford Tube is also still fairly strong - I've never been on one with less than ten passengers, and this includes the overnight services. I think its superior frequency was what gave it the upper hand, especially for return travellers and those with season tickets.
 

Journeyman

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The Oxford Tube is also still fairly strong - I've never been on one with less than ten passengers, and this includes the overnight services. I think its superior frequency was what gave it the upper hand, especially for return travellers and those with season tickets.

I imagine they must be very happy to have a major competitor out of the way. They'll probably do pretty well long term by cornering the non-rail market.
 

PeterC

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I am tempted to take a ride on the 102 when the coaches are introduced. However, as the route is an all stops service along the A40 with a round the houses diversion in Beaconsfield I do wonder what loading times will be like.
 
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