Isn't a Hot Spare in TOC-speak a stored unit which is capable of being reactivated overnight, should another unit become medium-term unserviceable, rather than one which can be used instantly? Any unit that hasn't been used for several weeks will need cleaning, for a start.
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ElectroSoldier
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In a TMD ready and waiting to be used
Class 170101
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Stabling stock thats spare overnight or between the peaks at station platforms does happen but it isn't liked by NR as they have to inspect the track upon which it sits from time to time.
I wouldn't be surprised about the access being inadequate if they were re-built now. In addition the wartime sidings probably didn't get planning permission and being a war things were just done. However doesn't this 'lack of foresight' now cause problems? I seem to recall comments being made about Claydon LNE Jn on East West Rail now needing to apply for planning permission as it was one such piece of infrastructure built without it and now being modified for new uses?
Not particularly. XC often have a hot spare Voyager parked up in Birmingham New Street which they'll use as required during the day.
WatcherZero
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Are you thinking of Warm Storage?
43096
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Hot spare is a diagrammed spare unit available to cover failures, late running etc. It is definitely not a stored unit.
BenW390Fan
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(Apologies for thread bumping, forgot about it lol)
Where is this stored? I've never seen it. I assume it's on the middle tracks between the platforms?
Yes, works from Central Rivers on this working
5D98 0602 Barton Under Needwood Rsmd to Birmingham New Street
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P38853/2019-12-02/detailed
and if not needed, back on this one
5D99 2157 Birmingham New Street to Barton Under Needwood Rsmd
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P38856/2019-12-02/detailed
BenW390Fan
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Great, thanks.
markymark2000
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Why can't more trains be stored in stations. I know they need to return to the depot for maintenance but the majority of the time, not on a daily basis surely.
Electric trains just need a clean every day and obviously maintenance doing but not every night. Alternatively, if AM and PM schedules were well done, you could store the train overnight in Leeds with trains returning for maintenance between the AM and PM peaks when some services return to the depot.
Diesel trains it's probably not so do-able unless you can work it out so that the train perhaps returns for a refuel and then heads straight back out to a major station.
I would say all of the Network Rail stations at least could hold trains overnight to save them returning to the depot and if cleaning teams were put into place at these stations, they still get cleaned. Surely this would free up masses of depot space with our growing fleet of trains in the UK.
Electric trains just need a clean every day and obviously maintenance doing but not every night. Alternatively, if AM and PM schedules were well done, you could store the train overnight in Leeds with trains returning for maintenance between the AM and PM peaks when some services return to the depot.
Diesel trains it's probably not so do-able unless you can work it out so that the train perhaps returns for a refuel and then heads straight back out to a major station.
I would say all of the Network Rail stations at least could hold trains overnight to save them returning to the depot and if cleaning teams were put into place at these stations, they still get cleaned. Surely this would free up masses of depot space with our growing fleet of trains in the UK.
Plenty of trains are stabled in stations overnight all over the rail network. However, it tends to be those stations where there is also a crew depot and engineering access sometimes requires them to be moved / stored elsewhere.
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markymark2000
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I would say very little is stored in stations compared to how much a station could handle.
How many units are stored in Leeds overnight for how many services?
True but there is a realistic limit to how many can be stored at a mainline station. If a staff member is late into work (judging by 'late from the depot' it is not as uncommon as you think) then you potentially have a train sat in a bay platform which impacts on arrivals/departures. It's a risk. I think the answer is that the ROSCOs begin to scrap some surplus, redundant units. Pointless having 313s and 319s sitting in cold storage that no one wants.
RTT suggests that all of the following start from Leeds tomorrow morning having been there overnight (based on the platform allocations and no inward workings)
2W01 0508 Leeds to Huddersfield (platform 5B)
2M00 0512 Leeds to Manchester Victoria (platform 4A)
2H10 0517 Leeds to Carlisle (platform 13A)
2N00 0534 Leeds to Sheffield (platform 17B)
5T40 0550 Leeds to Brighouse (platform 5C)
2V02 0600 Leeds to Ilkley (platform 3B)
2C00 0605 Leeds to York (platform 4B)
2H08 0626 Leeds to Skipton (platform 2C)
2P20 0630 Leeds to Bradford Forster Square (platform 3B)
2C02 0633 Leeds to York (platform 4B)
2H14 0656 Leeds to Skipton (platform 1C)
ie pretty much all of the bays are used to stable trains but the through platforms aren't.
markymark2000
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It's a risk yes. It would be daft to have a train overnight in every platform but 30% could be done perhaps. It is an operational risk for stations but could it not be the same risk in the depot. Driver for 1 train is late, then all trains behind become stuck.
ROSCOs do also need to sort stuff out for older stock. though not the best source, Wiki does show only 14 319s in storage (36 of them are test trains or being converted to hybrid or hydrogen operation) and it shows zero 313s (showing they are all scrapped)
Trains all over the place are stored in stations, especially across London & SE land. It's not always terribly efficient to have berthed units in London terminals and can cause knock on crew effects. Charing Cross and Cannon Street normally have 2-3 units each weekday. Waterloo often has several.
As someone mentioned before Southeastern is maxed out, so much so that ex-GTR 377s are still stored at Selhurst depot.
As someone mentioned before Southeastern is maxed out, so much so that ex-GTR 377s are still stored at Selhurst depot.
Ladder23
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not being used at all just stored?
No they're in active use on Victoria services, but its when they end up berthing overnight.
BenW390Fan
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Trains are stored in stations from what I've seen, just not a lot.
It depends on the station. Over 20 units are stabled in Sheffield overnight for example.
As for siding space, there is plenty knocking around. Loads of 142’s are in Worksop yard currently as they go OOS and are replaced with 195’s.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Greater Anglia has had to find extra siding space because most of their FLIRT units have arrived but only a few are in service, plus Crown Point is still being re-equipped to service them, so they are effectively having to stable two fleets at present. Part of the solution is to use the Mid-Norfolk Railway.
BenW390Fan
Member
I've seen a few in Leeds when looking on signalling diagrams, can't think of many more though.
'Train late from the depot' is very unlikely to be caused by a driver simply turning up late for work. Taxi issues, depot issues and train faults are by far the most common causes.
Re. stabling at outstations, don't forget that units need tanking every day - fresh water tanks filling, waste water tanks emptying. If this isn't done, the toilets on a lot of stock these days lock themselves out of use until they get tanked.
Of course when Northern got the CAF stock it turned up with a specific attachment for the fresh water tanking hose to fit to the receptacle on the outside of the unit - even Newton Heath had to modify the water hoses to be able to tank the 195s. No other stock has the same attachment. So even on those very few stations where a fresh water hose is available we now have a situation where only certain units can be tanked unless additional hoses are plumbed in.
BenW390Fan
Member
You mentioned about toilets being locked out of use if they're not changed after a while - how long is it until they are locked? Do staff need to remind themselves?
Depends how much they get used!
Yes, as @ainsworth74 says, it's more to do with either the fresh water tank running low or the waste water tank becoming full - on stock such as the 195s you'd hope that the waste tank is slightly bigger than the fresh water tank...!
I suppose the introduction of more and longer trains implies more depot capacity. Newton Heath is being expanded, Allerton reopened in 2011 and there is a new stabling point at Blackburn. There seems to have been no similar expansion on the east side. I've heard that congestion at Neville Hill, with several operators using it, is making Northern trains "late from depot" on a regular basis.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The fresh water tank can normally be re-filled just by connecting a hose, but emptying the waste needs the train moving to a discharge track fitted with the necessary pipework and pumps. So I believe it's normal for the waste tank to be several times bigger.
On 195s/331s the fresh water intake has a special adaptor rather than just a pipe which a hose sticks on the end of, something that Newton Heath were certainly not prepared for when the first 195s started to go on there that needed tanking.
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