Delay Repay refused

Pumperkin · 3 Oct 2019

You may remember my previous thread wondering what would happen to the gentleman who found himself at Wolverhampton after being misdirected to a Liverpool train at Chester.

Well, I have submitted a delay repay for myself for the journey Liverpool Lime Street -> Wolverhampton -> Sandwell, and this has been rejected by WMR as they are saying it was not more than 15 minutes delay (I am donating the delay repay to Samaritans).

I am trying to look on Real Time Trains but only seems to have data from last 7 days.

I travelled at 20:35 on 21/09/2019, and expected to be in Sandwell at 22:34. Due to a broken rail (I think) the trains were delayed/cancelled and I arrived in Sandwell at 22:51 (timed to the display at the station when egressing the train, foot on platform). I know it is only 2 minutes but I would like to dispute this as it is incorrect and I was delayed more than 15 minutes.

Is there any other database to show the delayed trains so that I can show this to them?

RailUK Forums

jp4712 · 3 Oct 2019

Pumperkin said:
You may remember my previous thread wondering what would happen to the gentleman who found himself at Wolverhampton after being misdirected to a Liverpool train at Chester.

Well, I have submitted a delay repay for myself for the journey Liverpool Lime Street -> Wolverhampton -> Sandwell, and this has been rejected by WMR as they are saying it was not more than 15 minutes delay (I am donating the delay repay to Samaritans).

I am trying to look on Real Time Trains but only seems to have data from last 7 days.

I travelled at 20:35 on 21/09/2019, and expected to be in Sandwell at 22:34. Due to a broken rail (I think) the trains were delayed/cancelled and I arrived in Sandwell at 22:51 (timed to the display at the station when egressing the train, foot on platform). I know it is only 2 minutes but I would like to dispute this as it is incorrect and I was delayed more than 15 minutes.

Is there any other database to show the delayed trains so that I can show this to them?

According to www.raildar.co.uk that train left Wolverhampton 12 minutes late and arrived at Sandwell & Dudley 12.5 minutes late. Raildar is free for a personal account but you do have to register.

Pumperkin · 3 Oct 2019

I've had a look at Raildar. I should have been on 22:20 however this was cancelled so ended up on 22:35 arriving at 22:51 something if I'm reading correctly? So I was over 15 mins delayed from when I should have been there?

bb21 · 4 Oct 2019

Pumperkin said:
I've had a look at Raildar. I should have been on 22:20 however this was cancelled so ended up on 22:35 arriving at 22:51 something if I'm reading correctly? So I was over 15 mins delayed from when I should have been there?

Train was 12 minutes late, not cancelled.

https://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk/Home/Service?ServiceId=66973228

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

Train was not running otherwise I would have been on it...

https://ibb.co/VxWsdfJ

Hmmmmm

packermac · 4 Oct 2019

Pumperkin said:
Train was not running otherwise I would have been on it...

https://ibb.co/VxWsdfJ

Hmmmmm

Was it not discussed on a different thread that delay repay is for late trains and not cancelled trains which I believe is a major flaw. Unless it was a cancelled train on which you had a reservation or a ticket specifically for that service a TOC is just going to look at the next service and if that did arrive outside the DR window then it will not be eligible.

35B · 4 Oct 2019

packermac said:
Was it not discussed on a different thread that delay repay is for late trains and not cancelled trains which I believe is a major flaw. Unless it was a cancelled train on which you had a reservation or a ticket specifically for that service a TOC is just going to look at the next service and if that did arrive outside the DR window then it will not be eligible.

Pardon? If I turn up for the 22:00 and it does run, my delay is calculated based on when the 22:00 should have reached my destination, not the timings of the train I actually caught. This can be tricky to explain, but I have never had issues with claiming Delay Repay on this basis.

185 · 4 Oct 2019

My only observation with this, looking at both pieces of evidence, show actual times that are very consistent with a train that did stop at all stations, and if the train was sent empty (in service - not to call, or no guard, ECS no passengers) the running times would be somewhat different, even if following another slow train.

I'm guessing the train may have initially been cancelled, after it's inward ran late (New St-Wolves) then control last minute reinstated it which could be where the confusion may have arisen.

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

185 said:
My only observation with this, looking at both pieces of evidence, show actual times that are very consistent with a train that did stop at all stations, and if the train was sent empty (in service - not to call, or no guard, ECS no passengers) the running times would be somewhat different, even if following another slow train.

I'm guessing the train may have initially been cancelled, after it's inward ran late (New St-Wolves) then control last minute reinstated it which could be where the confusion may have arisen.

I was stood on the platform at Wolverhampton and checking the departure boards - the train was not reinstated. I did overhear the station staff speaking of taxis, then the 22:35 showed up.

JBuchananGB · 4 Oct 2019

All the evidence points to the OP having travelled on the late running 2220, which ran 12 minutes late. This is the booked connection for that journey from Liverpool. The next WMR service was not until 2302.

The databases show the train as having run 12 minutes late, but the OP says it didn’t arrive until 17 minutes late. I think only photographic evidence of train in platform alongside the station clock will resolve it.

A week or so ago I successfully obtained Delay Repay for a cancelled service. I travelled on a train scheduled 30 minutes later which ran 12 minutes late, so I claimed off WMR for a 42 minute delay.

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

JBuchananGB said:
All the evidence points to the OP having travelled on the late running 2220, which ran 12 minutes late. This is the booked connection for that journey from Liverpool. The next WMR service was not until 2302.

The databases show the train as having run 12 minutes late, but the OP says it didn’t arrive until 17 minutes late. I think only photographic evidence of train in platform alongside the station clock will resolve it.

A week or so ago I successfully obtained Delay Repay for a cancelled service. I travelled on a train scheduled 30 minutes later which ran 12 minutes late, so I claimed off WMR for a 42 minute delay.

I was on the LNWR rather than the WMR:

https://ibb.co/r4s0n1Z

yorkie · 4 Oct 2019

packermac said:
Was it not discussed on a different thread that delay repay is for late trains and not cancelled trains which I believe is a major flaw. Unless it was a cancelled train on which you had a reservation or a ticket specifically for that service a TOC is just going to look at the next service and if that did arrive outside the DR window then it will not be eligible.

If you are referring to something published on this forum or elsewhere, please do provide a link and quote.

But I can assure you that the way Delay Repay works is by comparing the actual arrival time with the contracted arrival time.

The contracted arrival time will be the booked time of the planned train to arrive at the customers destination station; this will be determined by the booked/expected time at the time of purchase.

JBuchananGB · 4 Oct 2019

Pumperkin said:
I was on the LNWR rather than the WMR

They are the same people. But that clarifies that you weren't on the next train, which would have been the 2245 Virgin Trains Service to London.

SteveM70 · 4 Oct 2019

packermac said:
Was it not discussed on a different thread that delay repay is for late trains and not cancelled trains which I believe is a major flaw. Unless it was a cancelled train on which you had a reservation or a ticket specifically for that service a TOC is just going to look at the next service and if that did arrive outside the DR window then it will not be eligible.

No

Delay repay is for delayed journeys. If part or all of the reason for your delay is a cancelled train, but you still travelled, delay repay applies subject to the appropriate delay threshold

packermac · 4 Oct 2019

yorkie said:
If you are referring to something published on this forum or elsewhere, please do provide a link and quote.

But I can assure you that the way Delay Repay works is by comparing the actual arrival time with the contracted arrival time.

The contracted arrival time will be the booked time of the planned train to arrive at the customers destination station; this will be determined by the booked/expected time at the time of purchase.

post #8 on this thread and I also remember someone saying that following an early morning arrival at Gatwick his train was cancelled (and I guess GTR again) claimed no DR. Although I believe he may have been using and Oyster to confuse matters more.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-gtr-says-delay-was-much-lower.187921/

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

JBuchananGB said:
They are the same people. But that clarifies that you weren't on the next train, which would have been the 2245 Virgin Trains Service to London.

Yes, I was definitely not on the 2245 Virgin service. It was definitely a commuter type LNWR service.

Can anyone in the know please help me with the dispute reply to WMT?

bb21 · 4 Oct 2019

Even your own screenshot shows a 12-minute delay and actual times at some locations along the way.

There is nothing you can realistically dispute. I'm not saying you're lying, but you haven't presented any valid grounds for a dispute, so I'd suggest forget it and stop wasting your time unless you can find some other evidence to show the contrary.

paddington · 4 Oct 2019

Is it possible that the clock on the platform was 5 mins fast? Is it an analog clock, in which case it is not out of the question that one could read it wrongly by 5 minutes when tired?

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

bb21 said:
Even your own screenshot shows a 12-minute delay and actual times at some locations along the way.

There is nothing you can realistically dispute. I'm not saying you're lying, but you haven't presented any valid grounds for a dispute, so I'd suggest forget it and stop wasting your time unless you can find some other evidence to show the contrary.

Sorry I don't understand. I should have been on the 22:20 which would have got into SAD at 22:34. However, as this was cancelled, I ended up on the 22:35 which got into SAD at 22:51 and 34 m/s. Therefore I was delayed by 17 mins.

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

paddington said:
Is it possible that the clock on the platform was 5 mins fast? Is it an analog clock, in which case it is not out of the question that one could read it wrongly by 5 minutes when tired?

The display at SAD is digital, and my mental note time is the same as Raildar

yorkie · 4 Oct 2019

packermac said:
post #8 on this thread and I also remember someone saying that following an early morning arrival at Gatwick his train was cancelled (and I guess GTR again) claimed no DR. Although I believe he may have been using and Oyster to confuse matters more.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/delay-repay-gtr-says-delay-was-much-lower.187921/

Sorry but you are mistaken.

Neither post says any such thing; post #8 makes no comment on delay repay entitlement. The thread you link to did involve a cancelled train; the customer caught the next train which arrived 29 minutes late; GTR did pay out for a 15-29 minute delay. If a train is cancelled and the passenger travels on alternative trains, then what matters is the comparison the actual arrival time with the original contracted arrival time.

JBuchananGB · 4 Oct 2019

Pumperkin said:
Sorry I don't understand. I should have been on the 22:20 which would have got into SAD at 22:34. However, as this was cancelled, I ended up on the 22:35 which got into SAD at 22:51 and 34 m/s. Therefore I was delayed by 17 mins.

I understand now. This link from recenttraintimes.co.uk shows the running times of the trains from Wolverhampton to Sandwell & Dudley.

This link shows the running times for the trains from Liverpool to Wolverhampton.

On the face of it the train from Liverpool arrived on time at 21.55, and the 22.20 ran 12 minutes late. But you were there, and you are sure the 22.20 was cancelled, so you caught the 22.35 which arrived at Sandwell at 22.51.

The people at LNWR/WMR will only be looking at the data which shows that the 22.20 did run but 12 minutes late. Somehow you are going to have to convince them that it was cancelled. I can only suppose that a physical train did run along the route at that time, but not in public service, hence cancelled for passengers, but showing in the running statistics.

Maybe that data from imgbb https://ibb.co/VxWsdfJ would convince them, or at least make them look more deeply into it. I wish you luck.

Pumperkin · 4 Oct 2019

Thanks

I will be celebrating when the £3.40 goes to Samaritans

bb21 · 4 Oct 2019

JBuchananGB said:
hence cancelled for passengers, but showing in the running statistics.

I seriously doubt it.

If the train ran empty, I seriously doubt both the driver and the signaller forgot to set up their end of the system as a Class 5. One person getting it wrong occasionally is possible. Both getting it wrong is highly unlikely.

If you persisted, the most realistic you can hope for is them paying out to get you off their back.

maniacmartin · 7 Oct 2019

This situation can happen and has happened to me multiple times. One scenario is a train originally being cancelled and then the TOC deciding to not cancel it after all but the station information systems not being updated. Another thing that's caught me out is last minute platform alterations where not enough time is allowed for passengers to actually move platforms before the train is dispatched.

You'll have a hard time convincing the TOC though, as they don't consider things like this. That's why I now take pictures of the departure boards when boarding/alighting when it looks like it won't be a straightforward Delay Repay claim. It also helps me remember what happened, which is helpful when filling out the claim form.

Pumperkin · 8 Oct 2019

Update - this has now been accepted

Thanks to all who contributed, and let this be a sign that they can and do consider the appeal

Delay Repay refused

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