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New Severn Rail Bridge Proposed

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Nick Ashwell

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https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/gloucester-news/another-bridge-over-river-severn-3389047

Work to explore whether to build a new rail bridge over the River Severn connecting Stroud and the Forest of Dean is being drawn up, according to a council document.

The proposal is being explored to connect to metro systems in Bristol and South Wales through Gloucestershire - as well as for people to walk and cycle across the River Severn.

Gloucestershire County Council is exploring the feasibility of a rail crossing in a brief for its rail investment strategy, a Stroud District Council report said.

Why not rebuild the original one considering the alignment hasn't been built on?
 
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geoffk

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I travelled over the old Severn rail bridge in about 1956 or 7. The cost of repairing it after it was damaged in 1960, following an underwater survey which found extensive damage to Pier 16, was estimated at £312,000, against dismantling costs of £250,000. BR planned to go ahead with reconstruction but just before the work was due to start, a capsized tanker caused further damage to Pier 20, and this pier was struck again when a contractor's crane broke adrift. These accidents added a further £20,000 to the estimated costs of repair, and in 1965, British Rail decided that the bridge was damaged beyond economic repair and opted for demolition.

Figures quoted are from Wikipedia. We'll never know what the actual rebuilding costs would have been but that's all water under the bridge now!
 
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johnnychips

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If you can take the effort to read the original link... put it in the speculation thread.
 

deltic08

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I travelled over the old Severn rail bridge in about 1956 or 7. The cost of repairing it after it was damaged in 1960, following an underwater survey which found extensive damage to Pier 16, was estimated at £312,000, against dismantling costs of £250,000. BR planned to go ahead with reconstruction but just before the work was due to start, a capsized tanker caused further damage to Pier 20, and this pier was struck again when a contractor's crane broke adrift. These accidents added a further £20,000 to the estimated costs of repair, and in 1965, British Rail decided that the bridge was damaged beyond economic repair and opted for demolition.

Figures quoted are from Wikipedia. We'll never know what the actual rebuilding costs would have been but that's all water under the bridge now!
This has been a proposal since the bridge was dismantled. It was proposed the repaired bridge be made dual for road and rail use from 1961 by traffic lights as it was only single track width. This was before the first road bridge was started.
Strain gauges had been fitted in 1959 and tested by two Castles coupled together with success to allow heavier locos than Panniers for Winter weekend diversions when Severn Tunnel was closed for maintenance. Up until then, only 3-car Swindon Cross Country DMUs could be used.
I always understood the repair costs were £300,000 and the demolition costs were £350,000 not £250,000. These were the figures talked about locally at the time. Locals couldn't believe the more expensive option was taken.
I lived close to Severn Bridge in 1960 and was able to see the flames of burning petrol on water that night and hear the screams of the seamen in the water burning to death and not being able to help them.
Pier 20 was the one hit by the barges dislodging two spans either side. I didn't know pier 16 was damaged also in the accident. I did know that it was to be repaired and locally a large single span was constructed at Fairfield shipyard on the west bank of the River Wye at Chepstow to replace two spans that were lost. The intension was to float the span upstream and lift into position.
The twice daily service via Gloucester for secondary school children from Sharpness to Lydney ceased in 1962.
In the end, it was decided to demolish in about 1966. This was much harder than expected when it came to removing the piers and they had to be dynamited.
Because of the difficulty, the cost of removing was about £70,000 (about £1.2m at to-days prices) more than the cost of repair including fabrication of the replacement span. The span languished on site in Chepstow for many years.
The people of Lydney and Sharpness/Berkeley were separated after being linked for nearly 100 years and it was a big wrench as there was no public transport alternative. There wasn't even a formal closure process. I used it a lot. Lydney Town to Berkeley Road via the bridge at 10d return was cheaper for a school boy than 1/2d return Lydney Junction to Gloucester for train spotting. I would be all in favour of another bridge in this position for joining the two sides of the river but at what cost?
The formation is still intact on both sides apart from where Lydney bypass uses the trackbed between Nass Crossing and Lydney Junction station.
As an aside, my great grandfather worked on building the bridge and my uncle was involved in demolition. As a result I have a handed down original set of engineering plans dating from 1870 with all the measurements and an original watercolour of the finished bridge painted from upstream to show to shareholders what it would be like before they committed to invest.
The design engineers were from Lydney, consulting engineers from Westminster and the construction engineers were from Liverpool.
 

deltic08

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Is the original alignment suitable for the modern railway? Would it be appropriate only for, say, a low speed single track line only?
Yes, apart from the curves onto the bridge at both ends it was a 60mph line. The original speed over the bridge was 15mph but speeds of 50mph+ were managed by a Collett 0-4-2 tank engine and two auto coaches between closely spaced stations especially downhill from Severn Bridge Tunnel to Otters Pool Junction at Lydney. Strengthening work was done in 1958/9 to increase speed over the bridge to 30mph but the bridge was damaged before it could be implemented. Just the line to operate Pacers on if it had stayed open!
 

The Planner

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Presumably they are looking at a new chord at Standish too considering the line faces the wrong way to go south.
 

PeterC

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Is the original alignment suitable for the modern railway? Would it be appropriate only for, say, a low speed single track line only?
I would assume that the line would be brought up to passenger standard rather than just tacking a bridge onto the end of the branch. If the Wikipedia entry for Berkley Station is accurate the branch was double track that has since been singled.

Having encountered the peak hour congestion at the road crossings at both Chepstow and Gloucester I can see why there is a desire to "do something".
 

Meerkat

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I travelled over the old Severn rail bridge in about 1956 or 7. The cost of repairing it after it was damaged in 1960, following an underwater survey which found extensive damage to Pier 16, was estimated at £312,000, against dismantling costs of £250,000. BR planned to go ahead with reconstruction but just before the work was due to start, a capsized tanker caused further damage to Pier 20, and this pier was struck again when a contractor's crane broke adrift. These accidents added a further £20,000 to the estimated costs of repair, and in 1965, British Rail decided that the bridge was damaged beyond economic repair and opted for demolition.

Figures quoted are from Wikipedia. We'll never know what the actual rebuilding costs would have been but that's all water under the bridge now!

How come rebuilding wasn’t covered by the ships’ insurance?
 

furnessvale

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How come rebuilding wasn’t covered by the ships’ insurance?
Maritime law bases the insurance on the size of the vessel. As the vessels concerned were relatively small, so was the insurance cover. Presumably the shipping companies involved were "men of straw" when it came to sueing them directly.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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There's undoubted latent demand in Southern Monmouthshire for better rail connections to the West Country.

There are heavy commuter flow across both the road bridges while the current rail service depends on changing at STJ which can involve a long wait or 'going the long way round' through Gloucester. With road tolls now abolished on the bridges, rail just isn't an attractive alternative, especially given the inconvenient location of Temple Meads.
 

Pete_uk

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I'm struggling to see the benefit of having a rail link over the sever so high up. Would there be any benefit compared to going via Gloucester?
 

Nick Ashwell

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I'm struggling to see the benefit of having a rail link over the sever so high up. Would there be any benefit compared to going via Gloucester?

Lower Monmouthshire and Lydney need connectivity to Bristol, the buses stop after like 6pm and traffic in Chepstow it's currently longer to drive through town in the mornings than to drive from outside of town to Cardiff
 

deltic08

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They weren't ships but rather barges that broke free during a storm
It wasn't stormy but thick fog and a strong incoming tide that is a phenomenon of the Severn at this point due to an isthmus where the bridge was, swept them upstream missing the entrance to Sharpness docks on the south bank channel. The tide carried them across to the north bank channel where they collided with pier 20.
Had there been a storm it would not have been foggy and they would not have missed Sharpness.
Presumably they are looking at a new chord at Standish too considering the line faces the wrong way to go south.
There was a north to west chord avoiding Berkeley Road station that was used by Summer Saturday extras from Parkend, now Dean Forest Railway, to Bristol via the bridge and the now closed Midland route. This would be a quicker route for residents of Greater Lydney to Bristol than via Severn Tunnel Junction and a change there, but the total residents of Lydney, Sharpness and Berkeley would not justify the cost of construction of a bridge 3500 feet long for a faster route to Bristol.
Standish is much further north.
I would assume that the line would be brought up to passenger standard rather than just tacking a bridge onto the end of the branch. If the Wikipedia entry for Berkley Station is accurate the branch was double track that has since been singled.
Having encountered the peak hour congestion at the road crossings at both Chepstow and Gloucester I can see why there is a desire to "do something".
Before the bridge was closed it was double track from Lydney Town station to Berkeley Road station apart from single line over the bridge. Once it closed, the line on the north side was taken up as far as Otterspool Junction, Lydney, and on the south side became a long siding from the main Midland line at Berkeley Road Junction to the siding complex at Sharpness Docks where a lot of steam locos including Castles, the last built Castle 7037 was cut up here, 2-8-0s and smaller Pannier tanks were broken up in the mid 1960s.
A single line with passing places at the three stations in seven miles could possibly cope with a restored line.
 

The Planner

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There was a north to west chord avoiding Berkeley Road station that was used by Summer Saturday extras from Parkend, now Dean Forest Railway, to Bristol via the bridge and the now closed Midland route. This would be a quicker route for residents of Greater Lydney to Bristol than via Severn Tunnel Junction and a change there, but the total residents of Lydney, Sharpness and Berkeley would not justify the cost of construction of a bridge 3500 feet long for a faster route to Bristol.
Standish is much further north.
I know Standish is further north, but as the original article states Stroud, Standish is somewhat integral..
 

deltic08

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I know Standish is further north, but as the original article states Stroud, Standish is somewhat integral..
There was a chord of some description from the south towards Stroud closed probably 70 years ago, but I can't see the use of a Lydney and Sharpness to Stroud service being popular unless as part of a slower through route between Cardiff and Swindon avoiding Severn Tunnel. I wonder if the remains exist or if it has been built over?
 

Class 170101

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I still think a tunnel would be better with modern methods of construction avoiding water spots should be easier and a tunnel isn't affected by weather conditions unlike the Severn Bridges.
 

Nick Ashwell

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I still think a tunnel would be better with modern methods of construction avoiding water spots should be easier and a tunnel isn't affected by weather conditions unlike the Severn Bridges.

The new bridge is rarely effected by the weather due to being cable stayed rather than suspension. A bridge over the river would also not have to contend with the same issues as the bridge over an estuary, it's nowhere near as windy further up
 

deltic08

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I still think a tunnel would be better with modern methods of construction avoiding water spots should be easier and a tunnel isn't affected by weather conditions unlike the Severn Bridges.
Not easy tunnelling from the north bank due to high ground. That is why the original route from London to South Wales had to be built out into the river in places at Severn Bridge to avoid the cliffs as at Dawlish. There is no room between the railway and the high ground for a ramp down to a tunnel mouth.
A tunnel would have to be at least a mile and a half long with steep gradients down to the midpoint.
That is why a bridge was built utilising the high ground on both sides of the river that just happened to be at the narrowest point in this area to access at a height so that masted boats could sail underneath at high tide.
On a Spring tide the water level can vary by 60 feet.
 

Class 170101

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The new bridge is rarely effected by the weather due to being cable stayed rather than suspension. A bridge over the river would also not have to contend with the same issues as the bridge over an estuary, it's nowhere near as windy further up

Don't forget the climate appears to be changing. How effective will the new M4 bridge be in a few years time I do wonder.
 

Llanigraham

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Lower Monmouthshire and Lydney need connectivity to Bristol, the buses stop after like 6pm and traffic in Chepstow it's currently longer to drive through town in the mornings than to drive from outside of town to Cardiff

Do they?
I'd be interested to see the research behind that supposition.
 

Nick Ashwell

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Do they?
I'd be interested to see the research behind that supposition.

As a local I think I know what we need

To add to that currently cross border transport is in a sort of flux. Wales won't pay for infrastructure in England and vica-versa. This is why a second Chepstow bypass has been proposed for years yet now looks further away than ever. Building a bridge exclusively in England removes that problem and allows for less people to have to drive to Bristol and a lot of Chepstow traffic is English and not from Chepstow itself
 
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DelW

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There was a chord of some description from the south towards Stroud closed probably 70 years ago, but I can't see the use of a Lydney and Sharpness to Stroud service being popular unless as part of a slower through route between Cardiff and Swindon avoiding Severn Tunnel. I wonder if the remains exist or if it has been built over?
Are you sure? I can't find any sign of it, either extant or as remains, on OS maps of the period, e.g. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342842 and https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342818, nor can I see any sign of remains on Google satellite views.

The new bridge is rarely effected by the weather due to being cable stayed rather than suspension. A bridge over the river would also not have to contend with the same issues as the bridge over an estuary, it's nowhere near as windy further up
I think that's more to do with the wind-shielding provided on the new bridge, which protects vehicles from cross-winds, rather than a result of the different method of deck support. In principle such shielding could be applied to the suspension bridge, but retrofitting it to a bridge not originally designed for it could need expensive work to resist the extra lateral loading. There's little point in spending money on that when there's an alternative parallel route which is shielded.
However that doesn't affect the point you're making :D
 

Paul Dancey

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I think that's more to do with the wind-shielding provided on the new bridge, which protects vehicles from cross-winds, rather than a result of the different method of deck support. In principle such shielding could be applied to the suspension bridge, but retrofitting it to a bridge not originally designed for it could need expensive work to resist the extra lateral loading. There's little point in spending money on that when there's an alternative parallel route which is shielded.
However that doesn't affect the point you're making :D

Just to mention that the additional shielding before and after the arches on the original Severn Bridge were in fact retrofitted because of safety issues on strong wind days when vehicles passed through the arches. I'm not sure if it was the old sharpness rail bridge, but I can remember many years ago you use to be able to drive over an old rail bridge further upstream as the rail tracks were embedded.
 

deltic08

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Are you sure? I can't find any sign of it, either extant or as remains, on OS maps of the period, e.g. https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342842 and https://maps.nls.uk/view/102342818, nor can I see any sign of remains on Google satellite views.
Yes I am sure. Brunel was building the line from Swindon to Cardiff in 1842 with the intention of crossing the Severn by bridge somewhere between Newnham and Lydney avoiding Gloucester. He had reached Stroud and was continuing with earthworks towards the river when the businessmen of Gloucester lobbied Parliament and he was forced to progress his scheme via Gloucester, an additional 27 miles. The earthworks were abandoned in 1843. They must have been removed since then if you can't find any trace of them now.
 

deltic08

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They weren't ships but rather barges that broke free during a storm
No they weren't. Both the MV Arkendale and MV Wastdale were Motor Vessels and each had a Captain so they were not towed barges. I thought one was towing the other but this is not true. Both vessels are still visible at low tide on opposite sides of the river where they were dynamited the day after the accident to stop them from being a hazard to shipping.
As far as I know one of the collapsed spans has never been found as it disappeared into quicksand and silt overnight. Quicksand is very common in the river at this point. A lot of the cast iron was also lost during demolition as the spans broke up during craning off.
How come rebuilding wasn’t covered by the ships’ insurance?
The court case was in 1961 between British Railways Board and the Admiralty Commission where BR was awarded only £5,000 damages.
 
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