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Walking through 1st to get to Standard

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DerekC

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If you get on a 450 or a 444 at the concourse end at Waterloo and walk through the train to find a seat (as very frequently happens) you are bound to walk through at least one and up to three first class sections. Nobody turns a hair about that! Not quite sure why GWR users are quite so fussy. I guess it's because GWR likes to pretend it is still a long distance express railway*!

*….ducks to avoid assorted missiles :rolleyes:
 
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VT 390

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If you get on a 450 or a 444 at the concourse end at Waterloo and walk through the train to find a seat (as very frequently happens) you are bound to walk through at least one and up to three first class sections. Nobody turns a hair about that! Not quite sure why GWR users are quite so fussy. I guess it's because GWR likes to pretend it is still a long distance express railway*!

*….ducks to avoid assorted missiles :rolleyes:
On trains where 1st class is between standard carriages people should not really complain as it can be the only way to access empty seats or a toilet sometimes. But why 1st is in the middle on some trains I don't know and to me it seams like a silly idea.
 

dk1

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Anglia Railways had swing gates put on the side corridor along the kitchen to prevent the lower classes passing through the restaurant & 1st at Liverpool St. Several catering staff where very passionate about this & stood guard after Stratford.
 

Bletchleyite

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Anglia Railways had swing gates put on the side corridor along the kitchen to prevent the lower classes passing through the restaurant & 1st at Liverpool St. Several catering staff where very passionate about this & stood guard after Stratford.

These were fitted to the Mk3s on the WCML in BR days.
 

trainophile

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What caused me to make the post in the first place is that the stream of people barging past my shoulder at several stations seemed to give no consideration to those seated and quietly minding their own business, and many swung their backpacks into people’s faces while keeping up loud phone conversations. Some of them tried to get through two abreast, elbows flying everywhere.
 
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northernbelle

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Indeed, while some TOCs way of identifying First Class has been better than others, GWRs thin silver strip is pretty poor. At least some kind of Yellow stripe, possibly even putting the doors in a different colour would have been a better bet (Bronze coloured for First, Standard Grey / silver for Standard?). Then again LNER's 800 effort of identifying First Class from the outside is as equally as poor. Yet TPE Flood the exterior with 1 stickers, SWR has bought back the yellow stripe and ScotRail has retained theirs.

I'd also agree about the haphazard nature of the GWR IEPs when running in pairs - First Class can be at either end, in the middle of one + rear of the other, or both together in the middle. It's certainly a noticeable problem at stations such as Reading, where the rather confusing stopping locations have seemingly made things worse - XX is in Coach Number 2, XX in coach number 4, XX in coach number 6, XX in coach number 10. Train formation ABCDE, KJIHGF etc.

To be fair, the First Class denotation is far better on the IETs than it was the HSTs - see link: https://3iiimq4dut5r433mfw35280c-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-08-17-09.58.55.jpg

The silver stripe is much thicker - there are large, contrasting 'FIRST CLASS 1' stickers adjacent to the relevant doors along with number '1' decals on each door. All but a handful of sets now have a white stripe on the front ends to help staff to quickly identify the First Class end as the train approaches. Combined with the improved CIS and Zoning being rolled out, there has been much improvement as the year has progressed.

There has recently been a concerted effort to get the IETs into the correct formation - as of the start of this week, just 3 of the 93 sets were orientated the wrong way round. Hopefully this situation will be maintained and mis-formations will continue to be exceptional.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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In January 2015 (Tuesday 13th I think) When the delayed 14:10 from London Euston to Milton Keynes Central came in at like 14:45 and was ready for boarding around 3pm (5-car Voyager with only something like 3 people onboard), a member of staff got people to hurry (politely though understandably), I said I've got a Standard Class ticket or not a First Class ticket.

Either he said or I asked if I could get on in First and walk through and that was allowed.
 

Dave91131

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Anglia Railways had swing gates put on the side corridor along the kitchen to prevent the lower classes passing through the restaurant & 1st at Liverpool St. Several catering staff where very passionate about this & stood guard after Stratford.

I remember those, if memory serves me correctly I think the mk4 buffet vehicles had them too prior to their 'Mallard' refurbishment.

Two things strike me about the militant (in my view) act of staff 'standing guard' at these doors in the corridor alongside the kitchen area:

1. Is this not potentially extremely dangerous in the event of an emergency / fire in that it effectively traps passengers in the centre and rear sections of the train, contradicting the on-board safety information posters which instruct passengers to move through coaches to a safe place (irrespective of 1st or 2nd class) in the event of an emergency?

2. If said service is running late and a passenger not being allowed through to the front-most door (due to it being 1st class) caused them to miss a connecting service due to the extra length of walk involved and extra volume of passengers alighting from standard class to negotiate, would Delay Repay be paid even if strictly the connection 'made'?

Thoughts welcome...
 

dk1

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I remember those, if memory serves me correctly I think the mk4 buffet vehicles had them too prior to their 'Mallard' refurbishment.

Two things strike me about the militant (in my view) act of staff 'standing guard' at these doors in the corridor alongside the kitchen area:

1. Is this not potentially extremely dangerous in the event of an emergency / fire in that it effectively traps passengers in the centre and rear sections of the train, contradicting the on-board safety information posters which instruct passengers to move through coaches to a safe place (irrespective of 1st or 2nd class) in the event of an emergency?

2. If said service is running late and a passenger not being allowed through to the front-most door (due to it being 1st class) caused them to miss a connecting service due to the extra length of walk involved and extra volume of passengers alighting from standard class to negotiate, would Delay Repay be paid even if strictly the connection 'made'?

Thoughts welcome...
I think these where in happier times before delay Repay was as prolific as it is now. If they where multiple units without corridor connections at each end they wouldn't get through anyway. It protected the first class passengers (who after all paid more for that accommodation) from a stampede but also importantly stopped these lot from getting in the way of the restaurant crew trying to clear up, take payments from diners & prepare for the return journey.
 

Bletchleyite

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I remember those, if memory serves me correctly I think the mk4 buffet vehicles had them too prior to their 'Mallard' refurbishment.

Two things strike me about the militant (in my view) act of staff 'standing guard' at these doors in the corridor alongside the kitchen area:

1. Is this not potentially extremely dangerous in the event of an emergency / fire in that it effectively traps passengers in the centre and rear sections of the train, contradicting the on-board safety information posters which instruct passengers to move through coaches to a safe place (irrespective of 1st or 2nd class) in the event of an emergency?

No. They were just swinging doors acting as a deterrent - no more of a blocker than a vestibule door.

2. If said service is running late and a passenger not being allowed through to the front-most door (due to it being 1st class) caused them to miss a connecting service due to the extra length of walk involved and extra volume of passengers alighting from standard class to negotiate, would Delay Repay be paid even if strictly the connection 'made'?

Thoughts welcome...

Most staff are reasonable and would let you through on explaining the issue. This is not a reason to let everyone through.
 

6Gman

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Two things strike me about the militant (in my view) act of staff 'standing guard' at these doors in the corridor alongside the kitchen area:

1. Is this not potentially extremely dangerous in the event of an emergency / fire in that it effectively traps passengers in the centre and rear sections of the train, contradicting the on-board safety information posters which instruct passengers to move through coaches to a safe place (irrespective of 1st or 2nd class) in the event of an emergency?

Thoughts welcome...

If we are talking safety - if you have 600 passengers spread across 10 coaches (and 20 doors) surely it makes sense to divide them equally across the doors rather than unevenly?

(I sometimes find walking back up to the rear door actually gets me off quicker!)
 

Alanko

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See this a lot on Scotrail services. It works as a sort of 'life hack' because fewer people disembark from 1st, so if you want a seat you go through 1st quickly and pick a seat in standard while the last of the passengers are disembarking. My colleague actually showed me this 'hack', though I can't personally be bothered with it.
 

Bletchleyite

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I know, it's awful isn't it? Those folk who paid for first-class seats must be really narked when we mere mortals walk through!

It's not about who, it's about the number of people. One aspect of paying for First Class is a quieter environment, including not having a queue of Standard passengers the length of your coach when it's time to alight.
 

Kite159

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See this a lot on Scotrail services. It works as a sort of 'life hack' because fewer people disembark from 1st, so if you want a seat you go through 1st quickly and pick a seat in standard while the last of the passengers are disembarking. My colleague actually showed me this 'hack', though I can't personally be bothered with it.

I will admit to doing similar at Basingstoke, in boarding at the rearmost door to walk through first class to get a seat when people are still alighting from the first set of doors.

Although it doesn't help one of the seating area at Basingstoke being at the London end of the platform and the trains stopping in the centre of the platform.

----

@Dr_Paul you still get get the rabble walking through first class on the refurbished 450s to get to the other unit if it's a pair or triple. Although it isn't an issue on the Reading services these days as it's declassified (and in my experience is popular)
 

Dr_Paul

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@Dr_Paul you still get get the rabble walking through first class on the refurbished 450s to get to the other unit if it's a pair or triple. Although it isn't an issue on the Reading services these days as it's declassified (and in my experience is popular)

That's interesting: I didn't think that the inter-set connections on 450s had ever been available for use by passengers. I've never seen anyone but train crew members go through the doors at the driver's end, although I must say I've not been on 450s more than a couple of times a week at the most. Has this always been possible, or only recently been made possible?
 

Trainfan2019

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I often board at first class doors because it avoids the regular throng of passengers all trying to get through a standard class door. I've never understood why passengers just don't move and spread out along the platform!
 

NSEFAN

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That's interesting: I didn't think that the inter-set connections on 450s had ever been available for use by passengers. I've never seen anyone but train crew members go through the doors at the driver's end, although I must say I've not been on 450s more than a couple of times a week at the most. Has this always been possible, or only recently been made possible?
It has always been possible to walk between two class 450 or 444 units that are coupled (and class 350s for that matter). The doors are opaque, so upon first glance you would think you are at the end of the train. The small and somewhat dimly-illuminated door button probably doesn't help there.

For reference, the class 458 Junipers originally had various issues with their inter-unit corridors, so were normally locked shut. The corridor connections on class 455s are also not available to passengers.
 

6Gman

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It's not about who, it's about the number of people. One aspect of paying for First Class is a quieter environment, including not having a queue of Standard passengers the length of your coach when it's time to alight.

This.

It's not about status or snobbery.

It's not about objecting to standard class passengers walking through First with a purpose (reaching other standard seating, toilets, train manager etc).

Go back to the OP and it was about people helping themselves to freebies.

And, subsequently, about people going into First to alight.

Just

be

polite !
 

Kite159

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It has always been possible to walk between two class 450 or 444 units that are coupled (and class 350s for that matter). The doors are opaque, so upon first glance you would think you are at the end of the train. The small and somewhat dimly-illuminated door button probably doesn't help there.

For reference, the class 458 Junipers originally had various issues with their inter-unit corridors, so were normally locked shut. The corridor connections on class 455s are also not available to passengers.

Although there are some guards on the Windsor lines which keep the corridor doors locked
 

yrreb

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It's a big issue on the Class 185 fleet with the (accessible) toilet and standard tip-up seats being on the other side of first class from the standard accommodation. I believe this has been mitigated on quite literally all of the new Nova fleets
 

VT 390

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It's a big issue on the Class 185 fleet with the (accessible) toilet and standard tip-up seats being on the other side of first class from the standard accommodation. I believe this has been mitigated on quite literally all of the new Nova fleets
Is there a reason why when they refurbished the 185's they did not move 1st class to the other end?
 
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It always amazes me that a station with a high proportion of 1st Class passengers (for example Wilmslow where on London services it seems to be at least 33% 1st Class) the first class section of the train is at the remote uncovered end of the platform and very exposed to the weather over a road bridge. Given that this is an intermediate stop, you always have to wait on the platform for a few minutes. Whereas at Euston where there is a nice sheltered canopy you are not allowed access to the platform until the train is ready for boarding.

On poor weather days you get 1st Class passengers boarding through Standard at Wilmslow.

Every day you get standard passengers boarding through 1st at Euston - often late arrivals at the platform are told to board through J/K (1st) no matter how much luggage, prams etc. they have. I have seen it take 'till Milton Keynes for these passengers clear First - with multiple trips too and fro either their reserved seats or another standard carriage (occasionally they are helped by the 1st Class service assistants).
 
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Deepgreen

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A lot of that has got to do with the privatised railway abolishing the internationally recognised yellow stripe on the top of the coach, so it wouldn't "spoil" their nice new livery.
Spot on - it's a scandal that proper passenger information has been sacrificed in this way. A yellow stripe doesn't even detract from a livery, but the very long time it takes to build up public consciousness of a feature like this has been thrown away in a short time.
 

Deepgreen

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I do wonder if the policy on some lines of having the first class at the London end is entirely wise. Yes, it places the VIPs(!) closer to the entry/exit at the London terminus, but the converse at the country end often applies. By having first class in the centre of the train, the last-minute boarding of standard class ticket holders would not need to entail them all traipsing through first to the standard class area, which is both irritating (apparently) to first class passengers, but also awkward for the passengers struggling through with luggage, kids, etc. A central first class position also entails less disruption if a set happens to be turned for some reason.
 

gaillark

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I very frequently travel first class.
The suggestion of placing first class in the middle is not a wise one.
It will cause more disturbance with people walking through both ends as well as increased noise. Take the class 350 as an example. Plain awful.

I don't earn a fortune but as others have said here I appreciate the space and facilities that first class offers. Whilst the majority of first class passengers are used to standard passengers walking through there are some that take liberties such as moving into first upto half an hour before the train arrives in London. The buffet car on GWR hst's was brilliant not only for food, drink and information point for passengers it also helped in having a clear demarcation between first and standard as quite often the Guard would notice people trying it on.
I have no problems with standard passengers walking through first for a couple of minutes.
 

6Gman

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I do wonder if the policy on some lines of having the first class at the London end is entirely wise. Yes, it places the VIPs(!) closer to the entry/exit at the London terminus, but the converse at the country end often applies. By having first class in the centre of the train, the last-minute boarding of standard class ticket holders would not need to entail them all traipsing through first to the standard class area, which is both irritating (apparently) to first class passengers, but also awkward for the passengers struggling through with luggage, kids, etc. A central first class position also entails less disruption if a set happens to be turned for some reason.

It only applies at the country end if it's a terminus - so Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow on the WCML; Leeds on the ECML; Swansea and Penzance (!) on the GW. At a lot of major stations this would not apply - Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stockport, Stoke, Preston, Lancaster, Carlisle, Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Cardiff, Bristol etc.

I quite like the arrangement at Euston. Shut the gates 2 minutes before booked departure and few people need to walk through First Class.
 
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