Commuting costs in main cities

radamfi said:

There is little alternative to the train for travel to central London, meaning that trains have a captive market, but in outer London and most of the rest of the country, car travel is mostly viable. There are definitely people who would like to use the train but don't because of the cost.

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Not only is car travel more viable, it is more convenient. There will always be people who will use the train if it were cheaper. However there is a balancing point between catering for these people (which may be desirable) and encouraging ever longer commutes and/or generation of trips, (which is not so desirable).

In the countries which heavily subsidise their train commuters, are they any more likely to move a long way out of the city compared to Brits, where London train commuting has always been notable? Germany has a much lower government debt as a proportion of GDP compared to the UK yet can afford the bargain Bahncard 100.

radamfi said:

In the countries which heavily subsidise their train commuters, are they any more likely to move a long way out of the city compared to Brits, where London train commuting has always been notable? Germany has a much lower government debt as a proportion of GDP compared to the UK yet can afford the bargain Bahncard 100.

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Perhaps the social, demographic and economic factors are quite different? Not sure what the proportion of German Government debt to GDP has to do with the commuting habits of the UK? I suspect the quantity of long distance commuting in this country far outweighs that of Germany, even with our much higher train fares. The housing market is quite different too.

RT4038 said:

Not sure what the proportion of German Government debt to GDP has to do with the commuting habits of the UK?

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Just pointing out that Germany isn't broke despite offering such a good deal on train fares.

RT4038 said:

I suspect the quantity of long distance commuting in this country far outweighs that of Germany, even with our much higher train fares.

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Maybe to central London, but train commuting to other British cities is nowhere near as big and almost certainly less developed than in neighbouring countries. Commuter trains in and out of Manchester and Birmingham are often no longer than 4 coaches, for example.

Also look at Germany's geography - the larger cities have a population of around 3.5 million (in Berlin) or 2million (Hamburg) or less, it's got to be much easier to provide a commuter network for this than trying to get so many into central London (with a population that exceeds 10 million)? You've got to buy loads of trains that have little use for outside of commuting hours? Noticed in Germany peak frequency isn't a lot different from the daytime frequency so better stock utilisation? Get a few extra peaks often using older stock e.g. 218 turn out of Hamburg to Kiel. Also Germany has a lower debt possibly due to all the Brits (plus other nations) buying its cars?

Richard Scott said:

Also look at Germany's geography - the larger cities have a population of around 3.5 million (in Berlin) or 2million (Hamburg) or less, it's got to be much easier to provide a commuter network for this than trying to get so many into central London (with a population that exceeds 10 million)?

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London is clearly an outlier but Britain's other conurbations have comparable populations to the big cities in Germany.

Here in Turin it's 508 Euros a year for all Turin Transport Group services (GTT). This includes overground, underground and bus/tram services in the metropolitan area plus the first external ring. Under 26 the cost is 258 Euros per year. Our little town is 20km from the city centre and is in the middle of the first ring.

radamfi said:

London is clearly an outlier but Britain's other conurbations have comparable populations to the big cities in Germany.

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Usually it seems to be London fares that cause the issue, maybe because distances are greater? Used to commute on Cardiff trains (not into Cardiff I may add) but fares of those that did didn't seem to excessive. I'm sure they may be more than maybe some European cities but Governments only have so much to spend and subsidising commuters may not be top of the agenda?

radamfi said:

London is clearly an outlier but Britain's other conurbations have comparable populations to the big cities in Germany.

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Yes, but the outlier so significantly distorts the situation that any comparison between Germany and Britain as far as 'Bahncard 100' is concerned is pretty much worthless.
I see no point in effectively 'capping' long distance commuter fares ( which will have the effect of encouraging such long distance commuting) and subsidising these commuters' free leisure journeys also. Most of the population have commutes that cannot be made by rail - surely they are just as entitled to (subsidised) free leisure journeys too?

RT4038 said:

Yes, but the outlier so significantly distorts the situation that any comparison between Germany and Britain as far as 'Bahncard 100' is concerned is pretty much worthless.

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Even if you don't allow cheap commuter fares in the SE, you could have something decent in the rest of the country. Otherwise it becomes another way the rest of the country suffers as a result of sharing a nation state with London. You could have an "Inverse Network Card" allowing unlimited train travel in the area outside the Network Area. If that's too big an area, you could have ones covering Scotland, Wales, NW England, Yorkshire etc. At the very least, we shouldn't have season tickets outside the SE at a level that forces people to commute by car instead of train where train is a good option.

Alternatively, road pricing could be introduced to raise the perceived cost of car travel above that of rail. That would avoid the need to cut train fares.

radamfi said:

Even if you don't allow cheap commuter fares in the SE, you could have something decent in the rest of the country. Otherwise it becomes another way the rest of the country suffers as a result of sharing a nation state with London. You could have an "Inverse Network Card" allowing unlimited train travel in the area outside the Network Area. If that's too big an area, you could have ones covering Scotland, Wales, NW England, Yorkshire etc. At the very least, we shouldn't have season tickets outside the SE at a level that forces people to commute by car instead of train where train is a good option.

Alternatively, road pricing could be introduced to raise the perceived cost of car travel above that of rail. That would avoid the need to cut train fares.

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With commuting from places like Cardiff, Warrington and York to London being not unusual nowadays, you are going to have to get quite far out before the 'Inverse Network Card' combined with a SE season ticket isn't more attractive than the current through season ticket price, thereby encouraging more long distance commuting. Even in Scotland, furthest away from the 'pull' of London, I doubt that there is much appetite to encourage (for instance) Aberdeen or Inverness to Glasgow/Edinburgh commutes by capping commuter fares with a Bahncard 100 type product
Not sure whether there are many season ticket prices that 'force' people to commute by car - I suspect that there will be many other factors than price that will influence that decision.
You are quite right that road pricing would raise the perceived cost of car travel above that of rail/public transport generally, and a concept that I wholeheartedly support. Good luck with trying to introduce it though!