Caledonian Sleeper

VEP3417 said:

i always wanted to go on the sleeper train to scotland but if theyve got rid of the mk2/3 coaches than that takes some of the interest out of it for me, have they got rid completely or just some sets?

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They only run on the Highlander now, and only until next Wednesday (9th).

VEP3417 said:

i always wanted to go on the sleeper train to scotland but if theyve got rid of the mk2/3 coaches than that takes some of the interest out of it for me, have they got rid completely or just some sets?

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You have until Friday 11th October on Aberdeen or Inverness services. Then it's all new trains (mk 5s).

alistairlees said:

You have until Friday 11th October on Aberdeen or Inverness services. Then it's all new trains (mk 5s).

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Wednesday 9th is the last.

ahh thats a shame, diddnt have a set time/date planned, i think 2019 must be the year of "scrap all the old trains left in the uk" as theres so many different carriages/rolling stock being scrapped or withdrawn this year

VEP3417 said:

ahh thats a shame, diddnt have a set time/date planned, i think 2019 must be the year of "scrap all the old trains left in the uk" as theres so many different carriages/rolling stock being scrapped or withdrawn this year

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Yes, it's not unrelated to the PRM stuff which has a deadline of the end of this year (supposedly)

BRX said:

Yes, it's not unrelated to the PRM stuff which has a deadline of the end of this year (supposedly)

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In the Sleeper's case PRM is perhaps loosely related; yes, it would have needed PRM works, but, there is a much bigger picture to that story.

A GWR style refurbishment would likely have been well received, but, it's a lipstick-on-a-pig scenario… you've still got the same tired coaching stock sitting underneath the veneer of mod cons.

My last trip in the seats of the old stock to Inverness last night. Roasting hot when I boarded but by Watford it was freezing. The heating kicked into life around Crewe for a few minutes before dying out leaving the coach quite cold.

Still probably the last time I will be arriving into Inverness behind a 67

Took the Highlander from Inverness to London on Thursday Night. Texts went out that the lounge car would be closed for food etc. Folk brought their own and a staff member returned, and was able to offer drinks and snacks, breakfast as usual. The lounge was congenial, warm spirited and the staff did not appear to be hassled, but relaxed and the trip was of good service arriving on time. Some toilets out of action as the stock is probably not worth maintaining. I appreciate arriving in the centre of London in the morning. Good experience on the old stock.

Returned on Friday evening to Glasgow on the Lowlander in the seated coach, to experience the new train. I loved the smoothness and cleanliness, and the overall design of the new coaches. Very smooth ride at high speed, and a genuine advancement in overall look. However the accessible toilet was out of action, meaning we had to walk through to adjacent coaches. The small toilet at the end of the sleeping car, was only that and difficult to have a proper wash. I think it disgraceful that this problem is continuing.

Otherwise the lighting was reduced, the availability of charge points was good, but the air condition appeared to be cool for most, as most were wrapped up well by the morning. The locking cabinets above the seats were largely unused and the open nature detracted from the look of the carriage. No clear advice close at hand for their use. I found the chairs uncomfortable and will not do this again, and looking around many people were contorted in their sleeping conditions, trying to lie out flat. Couchettes would have been better if a more comfortable seat not supplied.

A few users of the new service commented on the staff attitudes. They certainly seemed stressed at the faults of the trains and the more complicated routines, people not sitting in the correct seats, not aware the luggage lockers would be locked, the food service supposedly at seats, and then the toilets. I can imagine those working in the lounge would be very hard pressed on the Highlander service. Over sophisticated routines are a huge issue. I already notice the hot food menu is far reduced. The service can be made more relaxed and staff and guest friendly with some close attention to focusing on the basics i.e. toilets, cabin temperature, simple instructions for guests beforehand rather than menus, emergency cards which clutter the seats. Reprehensible if staff on the trains are left to sort it out.

Kite159 said:

Still probably the last time I will be arriving into Inverness behind a 67

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Possibly, but I wouldn't bet your life savings on it!

Bassman said:

Took the Highlander from Inverness to London on Thursday Night. Texts went out that the lounge car would be closed for food etc. Folk brought their own and a staff member returned, and was able to offer drinks and snacks, breakfast as usual. The lounge was congenial, warm spirited and the staff did not appear to be hassled, but relaxed and the trip was of good service arriving on time. Some toilets out of action as the stock is probably not worth maintaining. I appreciate arriving in the centre of London in the morning. Good experience on the old stock.

Returned on Friday evening to Glasgow on the Lowlander in the seated coach, to experience the new train. I loved the smoothness and cleanliness, and the overall design of the new coaches. Very smooth ride at high speed, and a genuine advancement in overall look. However the accessible toilet was out of action, meaning we had to walk through to adjacent coaches. The small toilet at the end of the sleeping car, was only that and difficult to have a proper wash. I think it disgraceful that this problem is continuing.

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This seems to me to be a fair and balanced account of the service at the moment. Yes, there’s much that’s very good and commendable about the operation, but as you’ve suggested, the service is still plagued by persistent problems which clearly need to be sorted out sooner rather than later, namely staff shortages resulting in reduced catering and toilets being out of order on the new stock. The frequency with which these problems are arising is very much a matter for concern and I hope that CS are doing everything they can to resolve these urgently.

I do worry in particular that they may face some pretty irate passengers on the Mk5s on the Highlander (paying some of the eye-watering first class fares) if the catering service (which some folk will see as the main justification for buying a first class ticket) is continually curtailed or cancelled. Put it another way, is there any point in them advertising the full meal service if they know that they can’t reliably provide it? The scenario that you describe on the Highlander is unfortunately far from a one-off. It seems to me at the moment as though staff shortages (rather than Mk2s failing) have been causing the frequent lack of catering facilities on the Highlander, so the problems look like they will persist even with the new stock (unless some new staff are due to start imminently). At least if only a reduced offering is advertised, passengers will know the score and will be able to make arrangements to have a decent dinner/snack of some description before boarding. (CS have admittedly got better at informing passengers when catering is reduced, but they could avoid disappointment further by being slightly less ambitious in their initial advertising). I personally think that CS’ current catering offering (both in the evenings and for breakfast) is simply too ambitious, and I worry that this is causing needless stress for staff. I wonder whether a vastly simplified menu/catering offer on the Highlander (like the one from the later First Group days, which was just about manageable for one steward in the lounge) might help, particularly in the early stages of Mk5 operation, to reduce both staff workload and the potential for customers to be disappointed? The full menu can then be reintroduced once there are enough staff at every base (and they are sufficiently confident in working the new Mk5 vehicles) to offer it reliably. You mentioned a shorter than normal hot food selection on the Lowlander, so I wonder if this will be paralleled (at least initially) on the Highlander?

Out of interest, what does the current Night Riviera lounge menu look like? Admittedly the Night Riviera runs late at night, at a time when most folk will have eaten anyway, but could something like this be reliably offered on CS? Certainly it would be a useful comparison for the Lowlander, which has a similar journey time and departs similarly late at night.

Have any of the recent crewing shortages been down to training of the Highland crews on the MK5s?

If there is hopefully the situation will improve a little once they are running next week.

Chrism20 said:

Have any of the recent crewing shortages been down to training of the Highland crews on the MK5s?

If there is hopefully the situation will improve a little once they are running next week.

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That is always plausible, and would make sense at the moment. But I rather get the impression that some of the crew bases are a little short staffed permanently at the moment. In particular, there have been times when catering has been reduced on the Lowlander because of these same problems.

MrEd said:

That is always plausible, and would make sense at the moment. But I rather get the impression that some of the crew bases are a little short staffed permanently at the moment. In particular, there have been times when catering has been reduced on the Lowlander because of these same problems.

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There is clearly a shortage of manpower from the few journeys I have made this year, hopefully now the training (I assume it is anyway) is complete and the MK5 carriages are almost with us things will improve although I'm not holding out much hope for an instant improvement.

I've just had a nosy round the CS website this evening, are they actually doing this room service offering on the Lowlander? I can't imagine that will be much fun for the crew as I'm assuming the stock will be in the lounge car.

I understand the Inverness portion is to be worked forward by 2x Class73. Is there any reason a single Class 73 could be partnered by a Class 67? Single Class 73 work the other portions so can supply the ETH? The addition loco assists with traction. Can Class 73 work in multiple with other classes?

MrEd said:

This seems to me to be a fair and balanced account of the service at the moment. Yes, there’s much that’s very good and commendable about the operation, but as you’ve suggested, the service is still plagued by persistent problems which clearly need to be sorted out sooner rather than later, namely staff shortages resulting in reduced catering and toilets being out of order on the new stock. The frequency with which these problems are arising is very much a matter for concern and I hope that CS are doing everything they can to resolve these urgently.

I do worry in particular that they may face some pretty irate passengers on the Mk5s on the Highlander (paying some of the eye-watering first class fares) if the catering service (which some folk will see as the main justification for buying a first class ticket) is continually curtailed or cancelled. Put it another way, is there any point in them advertising the full meal service if they know that they can’t reliably provide it? The scenario that you describe on the Highlander is unfortunately far from a one-off. It seems to me at the moment as though staff shortages (rather than Mk2s failing) have been causing the frequent lack of catering facilities on the Highlander, so the problems look like they will persist even with the new stock (unless some new staff are due to start imminently). At least if only a reduced offering is advertised, passengers will know the score and will be able to make arrangements to have a decent dinner/snack of some description before boarding. (CS have admittedly got better at informing passengers when catering is reduced, but they could avoid disappointment further by being slightly less ambitious in their initial advertising). I personally think that CS’ current catering offering (both in the evenings and for breakfast) is simply too ambitious, and I worry that this is causing needless stress for staff. I wonder whether a vastly simplified menu/catering offer on the Highlander (like the one from the later First Group days, which was just about manageable for one steward in the lounge) might help, particularly in the early stages of Mk5 operation, to reduce both staff workload and the potential for customers to be disappointed? The full menu can then be reintroduced once there are enough staff at every base (and they are sufficiently confident in working the new Mk5 vehicles) to offer it reliably. You mentioned a shorter than normal hot food selection on the Lowlander, so I wonder if this will be paralleled (at least initially) on the Highlander?

Out of interest, what does the current Night Riviera lounge menu look like? Admittedly the Night Riviera runs late at night, at a time when most folk will have eaten anyway, but could something like this be reliably offered on CS? Certainly it would be a useful comparison for the Lowlander, which has a similar journey time and departs similarly late at night.

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When I last went on the Night Riviera in the spring the only hot food option was a soggy cheese and onion toasties. I don't think its ever had an extensive menu. The departure time is probably too late for most people on the down service.

Was on the Highlander last night, EUS-INV. Mk3s looking very tired. Berth didn't feel particularly first class, especially in comparison to my last sleeper trip on the Night Riviera (yes, same old stock underneath but clean, tidy, nothing broken, at least had a modern look and feel). Will probably stick to the seats in future on CS as the 1st class experience wasn't as much of an upgrade (in any respect - service, breakfast, quality or quantity of sleep) as the price difference implies that it should be. Glad to have had the experience but I'm in no rush to repeat it.

Chrism20 said:

There is clearly a shortage of manpower from the few journeys I have made this year, hopefully now the training (I assume it is anyway) is complete and the MK5 carriages are almost with us things will improve although I'm not holding out much hope for an instant improvement.

I've just had a nosy round the CS website this evening, are they actually doing this room service offering on the Lowlander? I can't imagine that will be much fun for the crew as I'm assuming the stock will be in the lounge car.

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I rather hope that they’ll see sense and ditch the evening room service (except for passengers with limited mobility for whom it’s essential), at least until they get more staff, as it just strains the staff too much. No wonder they’re stressed being expected to do that (and an at-seat service in the seats) as well as run a lounge car and attend to passengers generally. I seem to remember that with the old stock, your options were either sit in the lounge or take it back to your berth (unless you were in the accessible room) and I don’t seem to remember there being too many complaints about this. I seem to remember that when Scotrail ran the Sleeper, room service was available for first class only, but if I remember correctly it was only a limited selection of drinks and light snacks, not cooked meals. Perhaps the stock for this was kept in the attendants’ pantries in the first class sleepers?

paul1609 said:

When I last went on the Night Riviera in the spring the only hot food option was a soggy cheese and onion toasties. I don't think its ever had an extensive menu. The departure time is probably too late for most people on the down service.

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Definitely too late for me - didn't visit the lounge car after boarding last time I did it. I had taken advantage of the array of snacks and drinks on offer in the lounge at Paddington so wasn't an issue.

37047 said:

Was on the Highlander last night, EUS-INV. Mk3s looking very tired. Berth didn't feel particularly first class, especially in comparison to my last sleeper trip on the Night Riviera (yes, same old stock underneath but clean, tidy, nothing broken, at least had a modern look and feel). Will probably stick to the seats in future on CS as the 1st class experience wasn't as much of an upgrade (in any respect - service, breakfast, quality or quantity of sleep) as the price difference implies that it should be. Glad to have had the experience but I'm in no rush to repeat it.

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Depends when you travel of course. I just looked up the highland for January, and it’s £40 cheaper to go ‘club’ (1st) than classic (std). And at £150 one way for one or two people, actually quite reasonable.

Bald Rick said:

Depends when you travel of course. I just looked up the highland for January, and it’s £40 cheaper to go ‘club’ (1st) than classic (std). And at £150 one way for one or two people, actually quite reasonable.

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Perhaps, although I'm not convinced the extra £100+ over a seat for one person is worth it. I definitely wasn't £100+ better rested or fed this morning. I'll be interested to compare Mk5 vs Mk3 seats in any case. I'd do the NR in a berth again for sure.

paul1609 said:

When I last went on the Night Riviera in the spring the only hot food option was a soggy cheese and onion toasties. I don't think its ever had an extensive menu. The departure time is probably too late for most people on the down service.

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What you say doesn’t surprise me, given that most of its passengers do not need fed due to the late departure time. That offering would be too stingy for the Highlander for sure, but would perhaps be just about acceptable on the Lowlander (I can’t imagine many Lowlander passengers needing a cooked meal) as long as it was good quality.

The soggy cheese and onion toastie, though, is best not imitated! Something more appetising than that is definitely needed haggis, another meat/fish main dish, a vegetarian dish and soup (things that are popular, which microwave well and which can be microwaved easily in one pot) would probably be more than adequate on the CS hot food front. Some of the current dishes are too fiddly for the staff to prepare (as are those cold starters/salads which they introduced a couple of years ago).

37047 said:

Perhaps, although I'm not convinced the extra £100+ over a seat for one person is worth it. I definitely wasn't £100+ better rested or fed this morning. I'll be interested to compare Mk5 vs Mk3 seats in any case. I'd do the NR in a berth again for sure.

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Once Mk5s have settled down and are working reliably on the Highlander, you might want to give it another try, particularly on a weekday night off season (when you might stand more chance of a reasonable fare). I do think that the Mk5s will settle down and will be a much improved experience for travellers, once the teething problems and staff shortages are ironed out. Until that time it’s probably not worth it unless you have to be in Inverness/Fort William for any reason.

MrEd said:

I rather hope that they’ll see sense and ditch the evening room service (except for passengers with limited mobility for whom it’s essential), at least until they get more staff, as it just strains the staff too much. No wonder they’re stressed being expected to do that (and an at-seat service in the seats) as well as run a lounge car and attend to passengers generally. I seem to remember that with the old stock, your options were either sit in the lounge or take it back to your berth (unless you were in the accessible room) and I don’t seem to remember there being too many complaints about this. I seem to remember that when Scotrail ran the Sleeper, room service was available for first class only, but if I remember correctly it was only a limited selection of drinks and light snacks, not cooked meals. Perhaps the stock for this was kept in the attendants’ pantries in the first class sleepers?

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Yes I was quite surprised when I saw the content of the room service menu. I'd imagine that most of the room service orders will be within an hour of departure which is probably when the crew are at their busiest. This is also probably the time when most people are still moving about the carriages and corridors which will also slow everything down.

I certainly doesn't seem well thought out and will only add to the stress levels.

I have just done 4 trips on the Lowlander last week, Tues 1st Oct Edinburgh-Euston, Weds 2nd Oct Euston-Edinburgh,Thurs 3rd Oct Glasgow-Euston, Fri 4th October Edinburgh-Euston, I really enjoyed my time on the new Mk5 sleeper stock, found no major problems and I think it has potential to be a really good service.

First night:
booked Club berth, my first impressions were really good, looked smart in its color scheme, then once inside, found my berth, which had top bunk folded down, though was booked Club room, but top bunk was used to put stuff on so not all bad, really liked the berth, it was modern, looked really swish, all the useful stuff one could need, plenty of charging points, the heating was bit hit and miss but fine, the en-suite was hit and miss too, having toilet was great, the shower was cold water only, so gave a miss, the door lock wasn’t working with keycard, so couldn’t lock from outside, but not major problem as not going lounge so locked from inside, also had text saying lounge had limited service due to staff shortages, so limited offer, but not big problem as went straight to sleep anyway and managed good 6 hours, the staff were great and really helpful, took note of the niggly problems I had, and told me claim back money and make any complaints, so give 4/5.


Second Night,
Booked Classic berth, some improvements over first night, the keycard worked, everything as should be, had another 6 hours sleep, was finding the ride perfectly good and not too rough to sleep, the small toilet at end of coach was small but fine, limited food offer in lounge again, staff shortages again, staff great and helpful again, 4/5

Third Night:
Booked classic berth, there had been some sort of change of stock lettering, so ended up in different coach to what booked, went to berth and found it a Club berth with en suite, so went to check with hosts that was correct berth as had booked Classic, they saw been mix up etc, and just said stay in it and enjoy it, so ended up with un expected upgrade much to my delight, and the lounge was doing full service, so headed to lounge for some food and drink, had a single Malt MacAllan Whiskey, Celariac soup and Haggis Neaps and Tatties, which were all really enjoyed, then retired for the night, slept good 6 hours again, woke up in the morning, and thought I’d give the shower a go again, and it worked properly with hot water and decent enough pressure, so enjoyed a really good refreshing shower, which first for me on a train in over 30 years of travel, the keycard worked too, so am giving it a 10/5 tonight, because it was perfect and beyond with free upgrade.

Fourth Night
Booked Club berth, The lounge car was doing full service again, so headed there, this time having a Coke, Haggis Neaps and Tatties again, and the cheeseboard, which really enjoyed, then retired to berth for another 6 hours sleep, woke up in morning, didn’t bother with shower as not in the mood for one, so just got up and packed, after last night on sleeper for a while.

I think the new Mk5 sleepers have potential to be really good, and offer a great service, once niggly problems have been over come, like showers no hot water, heating temperamental, keycards not working etc, the staff were really helpful and gave great service, didn’t seem on face of it too stressed, so once the stock in 6 months-year has really settled down and problems fixed, with continuing hard work from staff and the stock they have, Caledonian sleeper can run a really great sleeper service, I think once the stock settles down on the highlander service, and over comes current problems, then the chance to have a refreshing shower, enjoy fine food while passing through stunning scenery, could make for a world class travel experience, like they advertise, I have certainly enjoyed my traveling on the new stock, and look forward to trying it out on the highlander service on next ALR.

DimTim said:

I understand the Inverness portion is to be worked forward by 2x Class73. Is there any reason a single Class 73 could be partnered by a Class 67? Single Class 73 work the other portions so can supply the ETH? The addition loco assists with traction. Can Class 73 work in multiple with other classes?

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My understanding is there's no technical restriction on a 73 working with another loco with the Mark 5s, provided it's the 73 next to the coaches (because of the Dellner couplers).

But you'd be more likely to see a 66+73 combo because GBRf don't have any 67s. It might happen if there's not enough 73s on a given night, but I'd expect it'll be rare.

I don’t think a single 73 can supply enough ETS for 8 mk5s though? Happy to be corrected.

marks87 said:

My understanding is there's no technical restriction on a 73 working with another loco with the Mark 5s, provided it's the 73 next to the coaches (because of the Dellner couplers).

But you'd be more likely to see a 66+73 combo because GBRf don't have any 67s. It might happen if there's not enough 73s on a given night, but I'd expect it'll be rare.

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You're correct GB don't have any 67s, yet they've used one on approx. 99% of the Inverness portion workings since they took on the contract in April 2015, so getting their hands on one clearly isn't much of an issue!

To answer/clarify some of the other queries:

- 73/9s use the AAR multi-working system, so can multi with both 66s and 67s
- 73/9s (and 92s) have various in-cab controls, warning devices and comms linked to the Mk5 stock. It's therefore preferable that it's only 73/9s on the front.
- However, I'm pretty sure it's still feasible to work the Mk5s (and mitigate the above in other ways) with a 66 or 67 + 73/9 combo.
- If such a combo was used, there'd be additional shunts required at INV/ABD/FTW (and Craigentinny between southbound and northbound services) to get the 73/9 back on the 'inside' which would create further hassle/challenges.

I'd therefore suggest a 66 or 67 + 73/9 combo is in the doable but not preferable category and an "emergency option only"

alistairlees said:

I don’t think a single 73 can supply enough ETS for 8 mk5s though? Happy to be corrected.

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Single 73/9s have regularly worked Load 8s on test, including trial Carstairs portions.

TimboM said:

You're correct GB don't have any 67s, yet they've used one on approx. 99% of the Inverness portion workings since they took on the contract in April 2015, so getting their hands on one clearly isn't much of an issue!

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Yes, of course, but hiring-in a 67 made sense while the 73 pool was reduced (Dellners being fitted and Mk5 testing).

Longer term, in the event that only a single 73 is available for the Inverness (for whatever reason) it seems more likely that GBRf would source one of their own 66s instead of finding a 67 at short notice.

marks87 said:

Yes, of course, but hiring-in a 67 made sense while the 73 pool was reduced (Dellners being fitted and Mk5 testing).

Longer term, in the event that only a single 73 is available for the Inverness (for whatever reason) it seems more likely that GBRf would source one of their own 66s instead of finding a 67 at short notice.

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It would depend on the circumstances - if it was a last minute requirement, it'd be a case of whatever could be rustled up. GBRf don't typically have a lot of 66s in and around Scotland (and available), nor that many with RETB fitted. It'd definitely an option, but so would a 67 depending on what DB had in the area (there is currently one stationed at Craigentinny, although it is there to be the LNER T/bird).

If there was a longer-term known requirement (e.g. another 73/9 needs to go to Eastleigh for a few weeks for new wheelsets and another one is undergoing repairs, say) then it'd probably make more sense to hire a 67 for the month.

I suspect we'll see 67004 hang around a little while until the Mk5s have bedded in on the Highlander - and 73970 has made it back from Eastleigh and is back in service.

TimboM said:

- 73/9s use the AAR multi-working system, so can multi with both 66s and 67s
- 73/9s (and 92s) have various in-cab controls, warning devices and comms linked to the Mk5 stock. It's therefore preferable that it's only 73/9s on the front.
- However, I'm pretty sure it's still feasible to work the Mk5s (and mitigate the above in other ways) with a 66 or 67 + 73/9 combo.
- If such a combo was used, there'd be additional shunts required at INV/ABD/FTW (and Craigentinny between southbound and northbound services) to get the 73/9 back on the 'inside' which would create further hassle/challenges.

I'd therefore suggest a 66 or 67 + 73/9 combo is in the doable but not preferable category and an "emergency option only"

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Would the ED inside a mixed pair need a minder driver, or are all the in cab controls merely nice to have?