Springs Branch stabling sidings project

Bovverboy · 5 Oct 2019

I see that, according to NR's press release (see post #1 of this thread) the reinvigorated Springs Branch site is going to stable and maintain 24 EMUs and 8 DMUs, and these figures have been reiterated ad infinitum ever since. Yet enthusiast sources have been pretty insistent that Springs Branch will be purely a stabling point, and that all serious maintenance of EMUs will continue to be done at Allerton. If NR are going to keep the maintenance building for their own use, then I can't see that there will be much scope for DMU/EMU maintenance anyway. So what, exactly, is meant by 'maintenance', does anyone know?
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....s-provides-jobs-boost-for-greater-manchester#
Another thing I find hard to explain is the figure of 24 EMUs being stabled, or maintained, or whatever. That's far more than reside at Allerton overnight now. There's no extra electrification planned, so where are the 24 EMUs going to operate?

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AMD · 5 Oct 2019

Springs Branch will be like other out stations eg Blackpool, in that it will be general servicing like oil, water & minor fixes.

Bovverboy · 5 Oct 2019

AMD said:
It's 5 or 6 tracks at Springs Branch (depending which way you look), with the depot coming off the goods lines. Geographically it's in a decent place for the electric fleet, with access to Liverpool, Manchester and up towards Preston, so sits in the middle of the west region.

I should have said Wigan to Preston is predominantly double track, although the layout through Wigan NW is essentially double track too, with two of the four through roads likely to be occupied by terminating trains. Anyway, the issue was why Springs Branch hadn't been opened instead of Leyland.

Elecman · 5 Oct 2019

Possibly because Network Rail didn’t own it at that point in time and it was too far away from Blackpool which was why Preston Croft Street sidings and Leyland were upgraded/ built respectively

Geeves · 6 Oct 2019

I would imagine since the wires through Westhoughton were Greylinged the amount of DMU stock vs EMU will likely be higher. At the moment lots of stock is stabled in various platforms around the NW including Southport an Rochdale meaning it doesn't get any attention for days on end. Newton Heath is already rammed every night before the new 195 Depot is even finished making shunting difficult. I would imagine alot of empty stock from various locations will now start at Springs Branch rather than Newton Heath or Stockport cs, as has been said it's a good location to save all that dead running.

Also no one has said everything stabled here will be Northern's even if the depot is staffed and run by said company. Leyland was always just temporary, it's layout was poor and the facilities were obviously only built for the very short term.

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

Elecman said:
Possibly because Network Rail didn’t own it at that point in time

Springs Branch? Who owned it (presumably, when Leyland opened), and who owns it now?

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

Geeves said:
I would imagine since the wires through Westhoughton were Greylinged the amount of DMU stock vs EMU will likely be higher.

I don't think the decision to reopen Springs Branch as an operational base assumed electrification of Wigan - Lostock.

At the moment lots of stock is stabled in various platforms around the NW including Southport an Rochdale meaning it doesn't get any attention for days on end.

I would think the situation has improved significantly since the opening of Blackburn King Street. Very few DMUs in the North West are now stabled overnight at points without fuelling facilities, for instance, the ones stabled in the Wigan area must be the principal group. Yes, I know DMUs are stabled at Stockport CMD, but they're easily outnumbered by EMUs. I would be surprised if it were not possible to get a DMU back to some sort of depot at least every other night.

Newton Heath is already rammed every night before the new 195 Depot is even finished making shunting difficult.

The opening of Blackburn must surely have created a bit of space at Newton Heath - no?

I would imagine a lot of empty stock from various locations will now start at Springs Branch rather than Newton Heath or Stockport cs, as has been said it's a good location to save all that dead running.

There's a little bit of scope for stabling units at Wigan which are currently stabled at Newton Heath, e.g. there's an early morning ECS Newton Heath to Preston, and one to Southport, and going the other way there are units which go back to Newton Heath from Wigan Wallgate which don't really need to. As for Stockport CMD, you'd incur additional dead mileage taking over work from there, since there are already more trains which start work in the Stockport area than are accommodated there, witness 5K50, 0539 ECS Allerton to Stockport.
It's been stated (I forget where) that the Wallgate Up Sidings will continue to be used for stabling, even after Springs Branch opens. This I can believe, since I would have expected that more than eight DMUs would be stabled at Springs Branch, since that's the approximate number stabled in the Wigan area now.

Also no one has said everything stabled here will be Northern's even if the depot is staffed and run by said company. Leyland was always just temporary, it's layout was poor and the facilities were obviously only built for the very short term.

It's hard to see any other TOCs being interested.

I'm still struggling to account for 24 EMUs being based at Springs Branch. If it were to provide all the units needed for Chat Moss, Liverpool - Wigan, and Liverpool - Blackpool, that's still only 17 units accounted for, and that includes potentially sending units ECS from Springs Branch to, say, Crewe, and that's something I don't think will necessarily happen.

DarloRich · 6 Oct 2019

Bovverboy said:
I see that, according to NR's press release (see post #1 of this thread) the reinvigorated Springs Branch site is going to stable and maintain 24 EMUs and 8 DMUs, and these figures have been reiterated ad infinitum ever since. Yet enthusiast sources have been pretty insistent that Springs Branch will be purely a stabling point, and that all serious maintenance of EMUs will continue to be done at Allerton. If NR are going to keep the maintenance building for their own use, then I can't see that there will be much scope for DMU/EMU maintenance anyway. So what, exactly, is meant by 'maintenance, does anyone know?
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....s-provides-jobs-boost-for-greater-manchester#
Another thing I find hard to explain is the figure of 24 EMUs being stabled, or maintained, or whatever. That's far more than reside at Allerton overnight now. There's no extra electrification planned, so where are the 24 EMUs going to operate?

Maintenance here will be of the change the tyres, top up the oil, check the bulbs, change a fuse type maintenance not a full service

LNW-GW Joint · 6 Oct 2019

WatcherZero said:
Network Rail have announced today they are spending £46m to refurbish and electrify Springs Branch TMD to house 24 electric and 8 diesel trains for Northern from Dec 2019,

Just checking the cost of things.
£46m for Springs Branch, when the Chat Moss electrification (Castlefield-Edge Hill) was budgeted at £50m.
Or put it another way, we could have had Lostock-Wigan wired (and probably Oxenholme-Windermere as well) instead of a new depot.

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

WatcherZero said:
Network Rail have announced today they are spending £46m to refurbish and electrify Springs Branch TMD to house 24 electric and 8 diesel trains for Northern from Dec 2019, they say work began April 9th. Finally official confirmation, they seem to have started then stalled work at Springs Branch several times over the last couple of years with vegetation clearance works of disused sidings.
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....s-provides-jobs-boost-for-greater-manchester#

Thinking about it, there wouldn't be room at Springs Branch for 24 EMUs and 8 DMUs, they must be talking carriages. That's 8x323/331 or6x319, and 4x150/156/158. That's more like it.

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
Just checking the cost of things.
£46m for Springs Branch, when the Chat Moss electrification (Castlefield-Edge Hill) was budgeted at £50m.
Or put it another way, we could have had Lostock-Wigan wired (and probably Oxenholme-Windermere as well) instead of a new depot.

Electrification or not, you still need somewhere to keep the trains, and I don't think Northern is actually overwhelmed with satisfactory train accommodation. Having said that, Blackburn King Street came out at £23m, so costs have certainly increased over the last two years.

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

According to RTT, Springs Branch becomes operational from the start of the next timetable (i.e. Monday 16/12/19), with three diesel sets out and two electric, on Mondays to Saturdays, but nothing on Sundays. The first passenger journeys for the diesel duties are 0556 Wigan NW - Leeds, 0656 Wigan NW - Leeds, and 0717 Southport - Alderley Edge, and for the electric they are 0535 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS and 0806 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS (the latter via Newton-le-Willows).
Of the above, the corresponding diesel duties currently start at Newton Heath (two), and Wigan Wallgate Up Siding (one), and the electric duties at Preston Croft Street Sidings (one), and Blackpool North CMD (one).
Apart from the loss of that one diagram to Springs Branch, Wigan Wallgate Up Siding looks to be set to continue much as now.

Assuming the diesel duties to comprise 4-car sets, my calculations in post #40 appear to have bitten the dust already.

Elecman · 6 Oct 2019

Bovverboy said:
Springs Branch? Who owned it (presumably, when Leyland opened), and who owns it now?

DB Cargo owned the whole depot.

WatcherZero · 6 Oct 2019

Its a bigger depot than you would think, the existing diesel TMD sidings and sheds have been pretty much ignored, they have laid four new sidings up to the bridge on the former Hindley line curve with all the equipment for light servicing of trains and a washing plant as well as a long stretch of double track for stabling on the former Tyldlsey rail line.

DSC03970sp2-6-19.jpg.34d7b6aaddd4bb105643b9659e6cc705.jpg

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Class 170101 · 6 Oct 2019

Plenty of room for extra stabling if DB Cargo give up / sell up / whatever the depot there. Seems such a waste.

I bet there is no train crew there either so that means taxis between the signing on point and the depot.

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

I've traced the initial Monday to Friday diagrams through and find that the five Springs Branch starts (in the order I gave them in post #42, above) finish at Neville Hill, Springs Branch, Stockport/Newton Heath, Preston Croft Street, and Allerton respectively. So, yes, it looks as though one of the Springs Branch starts finishes there at the end of the day - the one which does 0656 Leeds.
I haven't traced Saturday duties through yet, but one quirk appears to be that of a third EMU returning to the depot at the end of the day, in addition to the three diesel sets.

Class 170101 · 6 Oct 2019

Is the 05:35 Wigan NW to Liverpool in your post above not a double unit currently? Hasn't someone elsewhere suggested that a train runs with a unit locked out currently?

Bovverboy · 6 Oct 2019

Class 170101 said:
Is the 05:35 Wigan NW to Liverpool in your post above not a double unit currently? Hasn't someone elsewhere suggested that a train runs with a unit locked out currently?

I've checked it through and can't find any sign that the 05.35 is a double unit. It currently comes ECS from Preston Croft Street sidings, two EMU sets arrive there in an evening and two depart in a morning. That doesn't prove that one of the arriving sets isn't a double, but if it were there wouldn't appear to be any sense in it.
I've also checked the train's arrival at Lime Street, it currently does 0645 Wigan, from December it does 0636 Blackpool, in neither instance is there any sign of the train splitting into two.

P.S. Further to my post #42, above, the new timetable starts on Sunday 15 December, rather than Monday 16, but there doesn't appear to be any action planned for Springs Branch on 15/12.

Penmorfa · 6 Oct 2019

WatcherZero said:
Its a bigger depot than you would think, the existing diesel TMD sidings and sheds have been pretty much ignored, they have laid four new sidings up to the bridge on the former Hindley line curve with all the equipment for light servicing of trains and a washing plant as well as a long stretch of double track for stabling on the former Tyldlsey rail line.

Thanks or the photos, that makes a lot more sense than what can be seen from a passing train.

Bovverboy · 7 Oct 2019

Well, those of you who thought that the opening of Springs Branch was going to save a lot of dead running are in for a disappointment, for the time being at least, I'm afraid.
The diesel duties are easily dispensed with. The three sets which are going to stable at Springs Branch are going to replace one of the sets which currently stable at Wigan Wallgate Up Sidings, also the one set which currently stables in P3 at Wallgate, and the one which currently stables in P3 at North Western. So, a bit of extra running there sending them to Springs Branch and back. (As I mentioned earlier, two of the diesel sets are going to go on diagrams which are currently covered by Newton Heath starts, but there's going to be a bit of a reshuffle, this is a consequence of timetable changes).
The two EMU diagrams are going to replace Blackpool North CMD and Preston Croft Street starts - bit of a mileage saving there, you might think. Well, actually, no. The one which currently comes ECS from Blackpool North CMD is instead going to come ECS Blackpool North to Springs Branch the night before. So there'll be a saving of mileage Blackpool North - Blackpool North CMD - Blackpool North, but additional mileage Wigan North Western - Springs Branch - Wigan North Western. The one which currently comes ECS from Preston Croft Street is instead going to come ECS Croft Street to Springs Branch the night before. So a saving of mileage Preston to Croft Street and back, but additional mileage Wigan North Western to Springs Branch and back. Of course, if Wigan crews are currently used throughout there will obviously be a saving of crew time, but I don't know whether they are or not.
From the start of the new timetable there'll still be quite a bit of ECS running in the Wigan area (I'll see if I've time to list it), but off the top of my head I would say that a lot of it is one way only, so the saving of one ECS journey would result in the creation of another one somewhere else.

Class 170101 · 7 Oct 2019

Sounds like NR have demanded clear out of platforms with trains moving to carriage sidings. Addmittedly the platform tracks become difficult to inspect with trains stabled on them.

Bovverboy · 7 Oct 2019

I commented in post #50, above, that the two EMU diagrams moving to Springs Branch might already be staffed by Wigan crews (or, at least, a Wigan driver). That strikes me as possibly the common thread determining which diagrams should move first - I mean, the three DMU diagrams will already be Wigan duties, that's for sure.
Opportunities to save dead running appear to have been deferred for now. For instance, there will be a morning ECS arrival ex Newton Heath at North Western, and a late evening ECS departure back, so there's an opportunity there to create a Springs Branch duty saving dead mileage. There also looks to be at least one, possibly two, ECS moves Allerton - Wigan NW in a morning, and the reverse at night. Of course, moving those diagrams to Springs Branch wouldn't involve any timetable changes, so plenty might happen before 16/12.
One particular situation created by the new diagrams which, on the face of it, appears to be particularly silly concerns the existence of an empty stock move 5H03 (0517 Allerton - Blackpool North, to form the 0723 Blackpool North - Hazel Grove) and one 5F17 (0557 Blackpool North CMD - Wigan NW, to form the 0702 Wigan NW - Liverpool LS). Both are timed for 319s, and whether they turn out to be 319s, 323s, or 331s, we can be jolly sure that they'll be EMUs. They're timed to pass each other, running in opposite directions of course, somewhere in the region of Farington Curve Junction.

GRALISTAIR · 7 Oct 2019

Penmorfa said:
Thanks or the photos, that makes a lot more sense than what can be seen from a passing train.

Indeed thanks. I will post some photos from the early 1980s. The depot has changed a lot. I used to round it almost every Sunday afternoon in the 1980s.

Mathew S · 7 Dec 2019

On passing this morning, there's a Northern train in the new depot at Springs Branch. Really pleasing to see progress.

(Apologies for the slightly shoddy photos, I was on the 0921 service to Liverpool.)

Stuart-h · 7 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
On passing this morning, there's a Northern train in the new depot at Springs Branch. Really pleasing to see progress.
View attachment 71261 View attachment 71262

(Apologies for the slightly shoddy photos, I was on the 0921 service to Liverpool.)

Theres been a train parked there for the last couple of day when ive got into the depot in the mornings. Ive been on the mpv / rhtt duties since the end of September.

Bovverboy · 7 Dec 2019

Mathew S said:
On passing this morning, there's a Northern train in the new depot at Springs Branch. Really pleasing to see progress.

I haven't found any record on RTT as to how it got there. I'm inclined to suppose that it's from the training fleet, since there doesn't appear to be any immediate plan to operate any 195 routes from the depot.

Mathew S · 7 Dec 2019

Stuart-h said:
Theres been a train parked there for the last couple of day when ive got into the depot in the mornings. Ive been on the mpv / rhtt duties since the end of September.

That'll teach me to pay attention on the way past then! Not sure how I missed that. Still, progress is good.

Bovverboy · 8 Dec 2019

Further to what I said in post #56, there are now three training diagrams per day booked to run out of Springs Branch, SuX, 16/12/19 to 16/5/20. They're not likely to all operate, of course, and they certainly won't all operate as scheduled, especially since one unit drops off the system at Blackpool North at 1539, only to be replaced by one which miraculously appears out of nowhere an hour and a half earlier. On Saturdays (when there are slight differences to the diagrams), one unit disappears at St Helens Central, but it would only be due to return to Springs Branch from there anyway.
All diagrams are timed for 100 mph DMUs, so presumably 195s.

All the training runs involve shuttling between Blackpool North and Kirkham & Wesham, or Preston, or Wigan North Western, or St Helens Central, or Liverpool Lime Street.

Bovverboy · 8 Dec 2019

DarloRich said:
Maintenance here will be of the change the tyres, top up the oil, check the bulbs, change a fuse type maintenance not a full service

Changing tyres seems a bit serious for a stabling point.

Bovverboy · 8 Dec 2019

Bovverboy said:
I haven't traced Saturday duties through yet, but one quirk appears to be that of a third EMU returning to the depot at the end of the day, in addition to the three diesel sets.

The third returning EMU diagram (which, like one of the others, comes ECS from Blackpool North) has now been also loaded in respect of Mondays to Fridays.
So that leaves the current state of play as follows.
Mondays to Fridays: 3 DMU & 2 EMU diagrams departing, 3 DMU & 3 EMU diagrams returning.
Saturdays: 3 DMU & 1 EMU diagrams departing, 3 DMU & 3 EMU diagrams returning.

There's no sign of any of the departing EMUs being formed of double units, so there's presumably some changes still to be made.

Springs Branch stabling sidings project

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