Passing Intermediate block home signal at danger

jonnyrocket · 6 Oct 2019

Morning,

When you pass an IBH signal at danger under your own authority the rule book states...

“You must stop at the next stop signal and contact the signaller even if the signal is displaying a proceed aspect..

If the signal is at danger, you must contact the signaller in the quickest possible way before proceeding”

Does this mean if you CAN’T contact them you can’t proceed?

The wording of ‘quickest possible way’ has confused me as opposed to ‘if you can’t contact the signaller by any means’ it mentions at 7.1

Thanks in advance

RailUK Forums

800 Driver · 6 Oct 2019

Well, there'd only be one IBH, the next stop signal under semaphore would be the Home signal. You couldn't pass that without authority (unless the signal box was closed, under section 8 rules).

ComUtoR · 6 Oct 2019

jonnyrocket said:
The wording of ‘quickest possible way’ has confused me as opposed to ‘if you can’t contact the signaller by any means’ it mentions at 7.1

7.1 is referring to the IBH specifically; whilst 7.4 is referring to the 'next stop signal' Different instructions for different signals.

jonnyrocket · 6 Oct 2019

Thank you both. Could you not have more than one IB section? I think this is where I have got confused.

4F89 · 6 Oct 2019

No. Just 1 IBH per section

jonnyrocket · 6 Oct 2019

Great thank you

Tractor37 · 6 Oct 2019

Before Rochdale to Manchester Victoria was resignalled recently, Castleton had 3 IB signals in the up direction and 2 IB signals in the down direction, admittedly colour lights but still Intermediate Block signals.

4F89 · 6 Oct 2019

Tractor37 said:
Before Rochdale to Manchester Victoria was resignalled recently, Castleton had 3 IB signals in the up direction and 2 IB signals in the down direction, admittedly colour lights but still Intermediate Block signals.

But were they all stop signals?

Tomnick · 6 Oct 2019

There’s two IB sections in each direction between Blair Atholl and Dalwhinnie. If you pass the first at danger on your own authority and find the second at danger too, I’d suggest that you’d apply the same rules again, before finally applying 7.4 at the home signal at the next box if you do have to pass the second IBH at danger on your own authority. You’d sit there forever otherwise.

jonnyrocket · 6 Oct 2019

That would make sense

driver9000 · 6 Oct 2019

Jimathy said:
No. Just 1 IBH per section

There were 2 in each direction between Kirkham and Poulton until the line was resignalled.

Tractor37 · 7 Oct 2019

Jimathy said:
But were they all stop signals?

Yes they were all stop signals.

Colin1501 · 7 Oct 2019

As per post #5 above, I'm fairly sure you can only have one IB signal in a section. What you can have is a combination of automatic and IB signals. For example, between box A's section signal and box B's home signal you could have, say, a couple of automatic sections followed by the IB signal. I believe such an arrangement used to exist on both up and down lines between Gerrard's Cross and High Wycombe, and on the down line between Dorking and Holmwood.

Llama · 8 Oct 2019

That's not correct - I can think of two places where until recently there were three consecutive three aspect IB signals. Don't think that every IB has to be a two aspect stop signal preceded by a distant signal - that's often not the case.

sw1ller · 8 Oct 2019

I’m gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess the OP is mid way through their classroom based rules and is starting to worry about getting out there and getting confused.

Just remember, the rule book is for every driver, signaller, pilotman etc of every train and area on the network. You may not even have IB signals on your routes. I remember getting confused about yellow ground position lights and spending ages trying to work out how the track layout would look and of the 15 routes I sign, there are zero yellow GPLs. So I needn’t of bothered my ar..... but it’s a nice to know I suppose.

it’s a bit like the IB issue, we learnt it. At the time we had two on our network and now we only have one. Quite frankly, I can’t see there ever being a need to pass it at danger under my own authority. There’s a signal post telephone, the GSMR, my mobile, the guards two mobiles, all my passengers mobiles. If you have one or two on your network, just make sure you save the signal boxes phone numbers at either side of it on your personal mobile or keep it in your bag written down.

mask your instructors when the last time it was needed to be passed at danger and IF they have an answer to that, ask what the circumstances were and what was done at each specific location.

Tomnick · 8 Oct 2019

sw1ller said:
mask your instructors when the last time it was needed to be passed at danger and IF they have an answer to that, ask what the circumstances were and what was done at each specific location.

It might not be applicable to the OP's routes, but I can think of one reasonably convincing set of circumstances - where the IBH is controlled by a signal box that is switched out, and it has either been replaced to danger because of a fault or it wasn't able to be cleared when the box was switched out.

John Webb · 8 Oct 2019

Are IBS allowed to be operated from a box that can be switched out?

Tomnick · 8 Oct 2019

John Webb said:
Are IBS allowed to be operated from a box that can be switched out?

Yes, I can give you two definite examples (Melton and Elmton & Creswell) and another two that I think can switch out but I’m not absolutely certain (Edale and Grindleford).

John Webb · 8 Oct 2019

Tomnick said:
Yes, I can give you two definite examples (Melton and Elmton & Creswell) and another two that I think can switch out but I’m not absolutely certain (Edale and Grindleford).

Thanks. I suppose in those cases the IBS return to 'clear' after the track circuit beyond the next signal has been cleared by the train?

driver9000 · 8 Oct 2019

John Webb said:
Are IBS allowed to be operated from a box that can be switched out?

Poulton No.3 used to switch out at night once over and had 2 IB signals.

Colin1501 · 8 Oct 2019

John Webb said:
Thanks. I suppose in those cases the IBS return to 'clear' after the track circuit beyond the next signal has been cleared by the train?

I think in most cases, when the box is switched out, the IBS remains permanently clear, like all of the box's other signals. In most cases, there is only a track circuit from the section signal to the IBS, but not one beyond, so the IBS does not automatically revert to red after a train has passed. It has to be replaced manually, and this can only be done when the box is open.

Tomnick · 8 Oct 2019

John Webb said:
Thanks. I suppose in those cases the IBS return to 'clear' after the track circuit beyond the next signal has been cleared by the train?

Colin1501 said:
I think in most cases, when the box is switched out, the IBS remains permanently clear, like all of the box's other signals. In most cases, there is only a track circuit from the section signal to the IBS, but not one beyond, so the IBS does not automatically revert to red after a train has passed. It has to be replaced manually, and this can only be done when the box is open.

Every box (with IBs) that I’ve ever worked has had the IBH revert to danger of its own accord (possibly excepting one, I can’t remember) after the passage of a train, and a ‘train running away’ alarm (definitely including the one that I can’t remember about). Melton’s the one that I’m most familiar with - with the block switch ‘out’, the IBH and the section signal in its rear (both worked off a small switch panel) stay off continuously regardless of the passage of trains. There was what I considered to be a design fault in that both signals would revert to danger as soon as the block switch was turned in if, as was usually the case, trains had passed it in the meantime, so you had to switch in with care!

John Webb · 8 Oct 2019

Thanks for the various comments. At St Albans South when it was working up until Dec 1979, we had two IBS, one on each down line. These had replaced Sandridge box between St Albans and Harpenden, and 'Line Clear' was required from Harpenden before the IBS could be cleared. But the box was a '24/7' operation so never switched out. I was curious as to what happened to the IBS in a box that could switch out!

Colin1501 · 9 Oct 2019

Tomnick said:
Every box (with IBs) that I’ve ever worked has had the IBH revert to danger of its own accord (possibly excepting one, I can’t remember) after the passage of a train, and a ‘train running away’ alarm (definitely including the one that I can’t remember about). Melton’s the one that I’m most familiar with - with the block switch ‘out’, the IBH and the section signal in its rear (both worked off a small switch panel) stay off continuously regardless of the passage of trains. There was what I considered to be a design fault in that both signals would revert to danger as soon as the block switch was turned in if, as was usually the case, trains had passed it in the meantime, so you had to switch in with care!

I'm still a bit confused about this business of IB signals automatically reverting to red when a train passes. Let's imagine two boxes, A and B. A has an IB signal on the line towards B. When A is open, the signaller can only clear his IB signal when he gets 'line clear' from B. When A switches out, he pulls all his signals off, including the IB. Now let's assume a train passes the IB signal, which switches automatically to red. At what point does the IB signal clear again, and what triggers it to do so?

Tomnick · 9 Oct 2019

Colin1501 said:
I'm still a bit confused about this business of IB signals automatically reverting to red when a train passes. Let's imagine two boxes, A and B. A has an IB signal on the line towards B. When A is open, the signaller can only clear his IB signal when he gets 'line clear' from B. When A switches out, he pulls all his signals off, including the IB. Now let's assume a train passes the IB signal, which switches automatically to red. At what point does the IB signal clear again, and what triggers it to do so?

Read my comment again - when the block switch is ‘out’, the IBH stays off, as do other colour light stop signals in the parish. It only reverts to danger when a train passes *if* the block switch is ‘in’.

jonnyrocket · 9 Oct 2019

sw1ller said:
I’m gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess the OP is mid way through their classroom based rules and is starting to worry about getting out there and getting confused.

Just remember, the rule book is for every driver, signaller, pilotman etc of every train and area on the network. You may not even have IB signals on your routes. I remember getting confused about yellow ground position lights and spending ages trying to work out how the track layout would look and of the 15 routes I sign, there are zero yellow GPLs. So I needn’t of bothered my ar..... but it’s a nice to know I suppose.

it’s a bit like the IB issue, we learnt it. At the time we had two on our network and now we only have one. Quite frankly, I can’t see there ever being a need to pass it at danger under my own authority. There’s a signal post telephone, the GSMR, my mobile, the guards two mobiles, all my passengers mobiles. If you have one or two on your network, just make sure you save the signal boxes phone numbers at either side of it on your personal mobile or keep it in your bag written down.

mask your instructors when the last time it was needed to be passed at danger and IF they have an answer to that, ask what the circumstances were and what was done at each specific location.

Yes Sw1ller you are correct. I’m nearing the end of my rules and anticipating possible DTM questions. Thanks for the tip about keeping Signal box phone numbers

Colin1501 · 9 Oct 2019

Tomnick said:
Read my comment again - when the block switch is ‘out’, the IBH stays off, as do other colour light stop signals in the parish. It only reverts to danger when a train passes *if* the block switch is ‘in’.

Ah, got it - thanks. All makes sense now.

Tomnick · 9 Oct 2019

Colin1501 said:
Ah, got it - thanks. All makes sense now.

No worries. There's all sorts of curiosities, I'm sure. Elmton & Creswell, one of the examples that I gave, has wire-worked semaphore distants (yes, plural - two) for its IB on the Up, so they won't replace themselves even if the IBH does*. It's switched out most of the time nowadays though.

* - I have come across a colour-light stop signal, which was restored by the passage of trains, with an associated semaphore distant that wasn't!

Passing Intermediate block home signal at danger

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