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Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

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sprunt

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I'm not sure I accept the premise of this thread. Is it supposed to be on here that people travelling first class are looked down on? If so, I've only seen such posts aimed at people who, having booked first class, apparently believe that it entitles them not to see a single peasant from the time when they board the train until the time that they alight, or believe that using a first class door on a train confers status.
 
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Bletchleyite

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I'm not sure I accept the premise of this thread. Is it supposed to be on here that people travelling first class are looked down on? If so, I've only seen such posts aimed at people who, having booked first class, apparently believe that it entitles them not to see a single peasant from the time when they board the train until the time that they alight

It pretty much should, though not with that perjorative language. Part of the sales pitch is a quieter environment. This means Standard passengers should only pass through when necessary to access another part of Standard.
 

paddington

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Last month a woman sat down next to me on a Northern Pacer at Preston. The guard came round and I saw she had a £389 Anytime Return in STD from a station in Greater London. I had paid about £40 to go up the WCML in 1st.

And at Man Picc ticket office this summer I overheard many people asking for a ticket for the next train to London and they quite happily hand over close to £100 (or pay it by card) while I had my advance tickets in 1st for a fraction of that.

So it's not always the case that people pay "more" to travel in 1st. Actually I usually don't unless it's only a few £ more than standard on the same train.
 

Bletchleyite

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And at Man Picc ticket office this summer I overheard many people asking for a ticket for the next train to London and they quite happily hand over close to £100 (or pay it by card) while I had my advance tickets in 1st for a fraction of that.

You are of course highlighting another premium[1] offering the railway has that isn't First Class - flexibility. I almost always travel walk-up and I value the flexibility far more than losing that for a budget First Class seat.

[1] As the railway sees it - of course the cheapest budget car has it as standard...
 

Bletchleyite

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That’s the difference between working folk and we retired. We don’t need the flexibility.

You certainly have less need of it - though I also like it for other reasons, e.g. if I'm getting a bit peckish I can stop off for a decent meal, or if what I'm doing finishes early I don't have to hang around if I don't want to. All things I can do with my car, and I like doing them with the train, too.
 

EssexGonzo

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I may have got completely the wrong end of the stick here but, here goes.....

I suspect that the issue that some* people have with first class travellers is that they've not paid much of a premium for some of the promotional/off peak/advance tickets and seats. This opens up 1st class to higher loading which is probably not as quiet as some might hope. It also eats away at the differential between 1st and standard, thereby making 1st less "special", thereby opening it up to people who - how should I say this - may not appreciate the perceived ambience and behave according to how others may wish them to in the rarefied atmosphere.

It's not the travellers' fault at all. They're merely availing themselves of what's for sale. Good for them.

For a long journey not involving London I, however, go by car. 1st or standard - I hate sharing my space with so many others. :D

*Does not include me or, probably, most on the forum.
 

notlob.divad

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I have no problem with people who decide to pay to sit in 1st class. (I have on occasion done it myself). I have a major problem with the existance of different classes in the first place. Thankfully where I now live, we all just slum it in style, and everyone seems happier for it.
 

Bletchleyite

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may not appreciate the perceived ambience and behave according to how others may wish them to in the rarefied atmosphere

I don't see them as different. One should not play music/films out loud in Standard either. Nor should one drink alcohol to excess and engage in rowdy behaviour in any public setting.

(Yes, I know, in the real world... :D )
 

Bletchleyite

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I have no problem with people who decide to pay to sit in 1st class. (I have on occasion done it myself). I have a major problem with the existance of different classes in the first place. Thankfully where I now live, we all just slum it in style, and everyone seems happier for it.

Interestingly Chiltern, who operate through probably the poshest part of the UK there is (other than possibly Snorbens[1]), near-abolished 1st ages ago, and only have it on the "silver trains" because the buffets had 1st seating (I suspect) so they had to find some way to sell it.

TBH I'd probably say it should be binned off on commuter and local services, but retained on long-distance ones in some form, i.e. LNER, VTWC, GWR, EMR and TPE as well as a few of the ScotRail long distance services.

[1] Say it out loud :)
 

Meerkat

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Maybe Chiltern’s passengers are all so pleasantly posh that they don’t feel the need to pay more to get away from each other!
 

Failed Unit

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I don't see them as different. One should not play music/films out loud in Standard either. Nor should one drink alcohol to excess and engage in rowdy behaviour in any public setting.

(Yes, I know, in the real world... :D )

You have hit on a good point. Although I have not witnessed it personally I have heard of many unpleasant experiences of people in business class on airlines as a result of rowdy passengers (who probably haven’t paid for their tickets personally)

the 0955 Aberdeen - London was an eye opener in first on a Friday (before alcohol was banned) as people headed to Newcastle.

it is what society view as acceptable. People with loads of money are just as likely to be involved in antisocial behaviour and paying £400 per ticket won’t make them blink in the same way as paying £5 per ticket wouldn’t the majority of forum members. Sadly some people think it is acceptable to play their entertainment without headphones so the rest of the coach can hear....
 

Leisurefirst

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I may have got completely the wrong end of the stick here but, here goes.....

I suspect that the issue that some* people have with first class travellers is that they've not paid much of a premium for some of the promotional/off peak/advance tickets and seats. This opens up 1st class to higher loading which is probably not as quiet as some might hope. It also eats away at the differential between 1st and standard, thereby making 1st less "special", thereby opening it up to people who - how should I say this - may not appreciate the perceived ambience and behave according to how others may wish them to in the rarefied atmosphere.

It's not the travellers' fault at all. They're merely availing themselves of what's for sale. Good for them.

For a long journey not involving London I, however, go by car. 1st or standard - I hate sharing my space with so many others. :D

*Does not include me or, probably, most on the forum.
Tell you what, I went 1st advance from Euston to Glasgow and back on VT around this time last year and even though it was advances I felt mightily more entitled spending my own hard earned money for a bit of comfort on a leisure trip than the pair of 20something fairly well off sounding suits that got on at Preston I think it was.
One of their fascinating topics of conversation was all the free drinks they can have and how the other one should tell their work they really need to claim some ultra expensive phone.
Still makes me seethe now.
Chances of them paying for anything themselves virtually zero.
 

AlterEgo

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I have no problem with people who decide to pay to sit in 1st class. (I have on occasion done it myself). I have a major problem with the existance of different classes in the first place. Thankfully where I now live, we all just slum it in style, and everyone seems happier for it.

A quaint observation - if some people can afford nice things then they aren’t to be allowed them, and everybody must endure a lower standard for the sake of ideology and little else.
 

notlob.divad

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A quaint observation - if some people can afford nice things then they aren’t to be allowed them, and everybody must endure a lower standard for the sake of ideology and little else.
On the contrary. I would suggest that currently 'everyone else' has to suffer an inferior quality in order to demarcate a difference between the two classes. In other words, if first class was removed, everybody could have a modest uplift in the quality of their train travel experience, as TOCs would no longer have to create a differential between first and standard in order to sell First class tickets.
 

Failed Unit

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On the contrary. I would suggest that currently 'everyone else' has to suffer an inferior quality in order to demarcate a difference between the two classes. In other words, if first class was removed, everybody could have a modest uplift in the quality of their train travel experience, as TOCs would no longer have to create a differential between first and standard in order to sell First class tickets.
Have you travelled on a GTR 387? Some TOC don’t bother now. Remember these operate on “premium services” such as the Gatwick Express.

The budget southern service has a better environment in standard then the premium Gatwick express has in first. TOC don’t need to provide a difference and many don’t.
 

Bletchleyite

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On the contrary. I would suggest that currently 'everyone else' has to suffer an inferior quality in order to demarcate a difference between the two classes. In other words, if first class was removed, everybody could have a modest uplift in the quality of their train travel experience, as TOCs would no longer have to create a differential between first and standard in order to sell First class tickets.

I don't believe they actually do do that.
 

AlterEgo

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On the contrary. I would suggest that currently 'everyone else' has to suffer an inferior quality in order to demarcate a difference between the two classes. In other words, if first class was removed, everybody could have a modest uplift in the quality of their train travel experience, as TOCs would no longer have to create a differential between first and standard in order to sell First class tickets.

How much more would you be prepared to pay for that?
 

AM9

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I am losing the gist of the discussion here :s .

While there IS 1st Class and people (not just the well heeled) are prepared to pay for it, what is the problem?
Just because there IS 1st class now, iut doesn't mean that it has to be there forever. The gist of my post is that with a capacity limited service, allowing some to buy more space might be profitable for the tOC, but it isn't justifiable at the expense of passengers who can't/won't pay more than the standard fare being able to travel at all.
 

trainophile

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Just because there IS 1st class now, iut doesn't mean that it has to be there forever. The gist of my post is that with a capacity limited service, allowing some to buy more space might be profitable for the tOC, but it isn't justifiable at the expense of passengers who can't/won't pay more than the standard fare being able to travel at all.

But this discussion isn’t about the future of 1st Class, it’s about people’s attitudes to its current existence and those who use it.

By your logic we would all boycott 1st in solidarity with those who can’t or don’t avail themselves of it, and the result would be trains running around with a few empty carriages and Standard even more rammed than it currently is.
 

gazzaa2

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It’s jealousy, pure and simple. “If I can’t have/afford it, why should you have it.”

Often people who've paid a tenner/20 quid for a ticket at the weekend and then pay another 20 quid to upgrade to first class? Big deal.

We're not talking a night in the Shangri-la or wherever.
 

dk1

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I am losing the gist of the discussion here :s .

While there IS 1st Class and people (not just the well heeled) are prepared to pay for it, what is the problem?
I am with you on that one. Struggling to understand the issue too.
 

Failed Unit

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But this discussion isn’t about the future of 1st Class, it’s about people’s attitudes to its current existence and those who use it.

By your logic we would all boycott 1st in solidarity with those who can’t or don’t avail themselves of it, and the result would be trains running around with a few empty carriages and Standard even more rammed than it currently is.
Well we have a new standard only open access operators on the ECML soon. I suspect it won’t bother LNERs first class product. But we will see what passengers think to standard only. As you say drifting of the point of the thread. But for me with a choice if the price is right I will still go 1st. Even if the other operator was selling seats for £5 each to Edinburgh. (But for that price I would consider the products and buying the extra features first provides that I use)
 

Wychwood93

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Well we have a new standard only open access operators on the ECML soon. I suspect it won’t bother LNERs first class product. But we will see what passengers think to standard only. As you say drifting of the point of the thread. But for me with a choice if the price is right I will still go 1st. Even if the other operator was selling seats for £5 each to Edinburgh. (But for that price I would consider the products and buying the extra features first provides that I use)
Drifting to SNCF - 'prem' tickets, advance over here, can quite often be similar or cheaper for 1st comp to std - my occasional solo trips abroad would favour 1st - no snacks etc., no 'wine class' E* stuff - a chosen solo seat, nice. Gare de Lyon to Narbonne/Perpignan most pleasant. I do not have PRIV 1st class over here so it is an occasional stumble onto a guard I know to give me a nod to 'turn right' - it could be 'turn left' or 'fancy moving up a couple of coaches'. I accept or decline depending on where I am going. To myself I make the point of not taking the p*** - regardless of how many people may not be there anyway!
 

nottsnurse

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The sooner '1st class' is binned from all railway services the better. With capacity being such an issue it is ridiculous that it still exists.
 

yorksrob

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With apologies to The Frost Report:

John Cleese: "I regularly travel 1st Class for business, to work and get to head office suitably refreshed"
Ronnie B: "I occasionally travel first class with the wife for leisure"
Ronnie C: (In standard) "I know my place"

John Cleese (to Ronnie B): "I look down on him because he uses a cheap advance purchase ticket to travel first, whereas mine is full price"
Ronnie B (to John Cleese): "I look up to him, because he can travel in first whenever he wants, whereas I have to travel at awkward times when the fares are cheapest. (to Ronnie C): I look down on him, because he travels in standard"
Ronnie C: "I know my place"

John Cleese (to Ronnie B): "I look down on him, because he disturbs me by talking noisily with his wife and hoovering up the freebies while I'm trying to work."
Ronnie B (to John Cleese): "I look down on him, because he has his first class travel paid for by his employer, whereas I've paid for it with my own money (to Ronnie C) I look down on him, because he has failed to take advantage of cheap advance fares and consequently has ended up in standard like a mug"
Ronnie C (to Ronnie B): "I look up to him because he managed to get a cheap first class ticket, however I also look down on him because I have no choice over when I travel and am paying more for my anytime standard fare than he is paying for his advance purchase first class fare "

John Cleese (to Ronnie B): "I look down on him because he is overcrowding the carriage and ruining the rarified ambience that my company has paid a premium for"
Ronnie B (to John Cleese): "I look down on him because he has a sense of entitlement to first class, whereas I am using up space which would otherwise be empty (to Ronnie C) I am grateful to him, because he has remained in standard out of my way"
Ronnie C (to Ronnie B and John Cleese): "I look down on him and him, because their sense of entitlement means that too much of the train is dedicated to first class accommodation, leaving too few standard seats"

etc....
 

brad465

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Where I work business travel is almost always standard class only allowed - however exceptions exist for 1st class, including autistic people being able to claim it for the quieter environment, and/or where 1st class promotes working whilst travelling.
 

Hadders

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The sooner '1st class' is binned from all railway services the better. With capacity being such an issue it is ridiculous that it still exists.

I disagree. We don't force everyone to drive small cars because the roads are congested and no-one suggests getting rid of 1st class on airlines or scrapping priority boarding because the airports are at capacity.

Why shouldn't someone be able to pay more to make a journey in relative comfort, in an environment where they potentially be more productive?

I agree that there isn't a need for 1st class on inner suburban services but I believe there is on outer suburban services. Someone travelling from Cambridge or Kings Lynn to London should haive the option of 1st class, especially if a service like this is being used as a connection into a long distance inter-city service.
 
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