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Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

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Bletchleyite

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Where I work business travel is almost always standard class only allowed - however exceptions exist for 1st class, including autistic people being able to claim it for the quieter environment, and/or where 1st class promotes working whilst travelling.

I'm not allowed it, but if I was I'd be more likely to work on board, which is near impossible in a very upright non-table Standard seat.
 
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xotGD

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Where I work business travel is almost always standard class only allowed - however exceptions exist for 1st class, including autistic people being able to claim it for the quieter environment, and/or where 1st class promotes working whilst travelling.
I'm not sure how complementary gin 'promotes working whilst travelling'. Perhaps in the creative industries.

A standard class table seat provides a perfectly adequate workspace. Anyone claiming they need to be in first in order to get some work done is just trying it on.
 

Bletchleyite

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A standard class table seat provides a perfectly adequate workspace. Anyone claiming they need to be in first in order to get some work done is just trying it on.

I genuinely wonder if the increased number of tables on TPE services has more to do with that and less to do with families and groups liking them.

Of course, you try getting a table seat on a Pendolino. There are not many.
 

marks87

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A standard class table seat provides a perfectly adequate workspace.

That’s simply not true. Maybe for short journeys but there’s no way I’d even entertain the idea of going standard class to south of Edinburgh (from Dundee) if I needed to work.

But I’m happy to pay out of my own pocket if there’s a reasonable priced advance. If not, I’ll just have my company book a flight where possible.
 

AM9

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But this discussion isn’t about the future of 1st Class, it’s about people’s attitudes to its current existence and those who use it.

By your logic we would all boycott 1st in solidarity with those who can’t or don’t avail themselves of it, and the result would be trains running around with a few empty carriages and Standard even more rammed than it currently is.
No. If the train service is continually oversubscribed and there is no opportunity to increase capacity, then it is unreasonable to waste some of that finite capacity with 1st class accommodation. If that space was fitted for standard class passengers, the full capacity of the service would be available. Quite simple to understand really.
 

Failed Unit

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No. If the train service is continually oversubscribed and there is no opportunity to increase capacity, then it is unreasonable to waste some of that finite capacity with 1st class accommodation. If that space was fitted for standard class passengers, the full capacity of the service would be available. Quite simple to understand really.
How many inter-city services would you place in that category? Many commuting services I agree are in that position. I would be interested if GTR abolished 1st how many people would care. Especially if your service is operated by a standard seat only 387.
 

sheff1

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I'm not sure how complementary gin 'promotes working whilst travelling'. Perhaps in the creative industries.
I have never partaken of a complementary gin in First. Just because something is available doesn't mean you have to take it. Indeed, I have seen many people turn down the complimentary food, never mind the drink.
 
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AM9

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How many inter-city services would you place in that category? Many commuting services I agree are in that position. I would be interested if GTR abolished 1st how many people would care. Especially if your service is operated by a standard seat only 387.
Inter-city, (whatever that is these days), including some TPE and XC services have the same problem as some commuter services, i.e. there are acute shortages of standard accommodation yet frequently, over provision of first class. Both GWR and VTWC have cut back the number of 1st coaches in some cases, whilst frequent complaints of packed standard class coaches and lightly loaded 1st class on TPE and XC adorn threads in this forum.
I agree that 1st class on commuter trains in the south east is mainly to discriminate from those who are prepared to pay for a guaranteed seat, and those who are not, with the difference being just a paper anti-macassar.
 

Crepello

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Seems just the typical cycle of virtue signalling from the Competitively Offended. Here's how it works:

CO: "First class is evil and kills baby seals. We demand everybody travels Standard."
[Train operators meekly comply; business travelers and wealthier folks travel by air instead.]
CO: "But airplanes are evil and kill baby dolphins. We demand nobody travels by air."
[Regulators meekly comply. Quickly afterward, the private sector embraces the sudden market for ultra-luxury coach travel.]
CO: "But coaches that posh are evil and kill baby koalas. Trains are more efficient..."
[At which point, anyone with half a brain shrugs their shoulders and emigrates.]

Basically it's jealousy masquerading as "activism", and is best handled by ignoring it completely.

On a lighter note, I've noticed my own double standards, traveling by air. On my own dime I'll travel on the cheapest dates possible, and take delight in every economy I can muster (e.g. grabbing a luggage cart from a parking area, rather than paying for one in the terminal). I then board the plane and sneer with disgust at the snobs in the front cabin, marinating in their expensive perfumes/deodorants while checking they don't have a hair out of place..... However if I'm on expenses then having taken my seat upfront, I sneer with disgust at the oiks slouching past towards the back of the airplane, who haven't washed in months and can't use a comb........ muhahaa. :D:D8-)
 

bramling

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No. If the train service is continually oversubscribed and there is no opportunity to increase capacity, then it is unreasonable to waste some of that finite capacity with 1st class accommodation. If that space was fitted for standard class passengers, the full capacity of the service would be available. Quite simple to understand really.

There is, of course, some scope to debate what is meant by continually oversubscribed. Some people may regard this as "people standing", whilst others may regard it as "people unable to board". Likewise even with the latter it may be a case that whilst people may be left behind on a given service, there's another close behind which has room.

There aren't *that* many services in the L&SE area which have first class and where the second and especially the third of those applies. The most extreme overcrowding applies to London metro services, few of which have first class.

Meanwhile it's rather hard to reconcile the likes of Thameslink, where such a fuss is made about capacity, yet something approaching 10-15% of the length of a 700/0 is taken up with first (in body, if not always in mind).
 

Failed Unit

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Inter-city, (whatever that is these days), including some TPE and XC services have the same problem as some commuter services, i.e. there are acute shortages of standard accommodation yet frequently, over provision of first class. Both GWR and VTWC have cut back the number of 1st coaches in some cases, whilst frequent complaints of packed standard class coaches and lightly loaded 1st class on TPE and XC adorn threads in this forum.
I agree that 1st class on commuter trains in the south east is mainly to discriminate from those who are prepared to pay for a guaranteed seat, and those who are not, with the difference being just a paper anti-macassar.
On 2 of the companies you mention the best solution would be longer trains rather than less first class.

GTR operate the longest trains their infrastructure can take. So cutting 1st class is the only solution to more capacity. TPE operate 3 car DMUs. If they were 4 or 5 cars (as they are about to be) would people complain. Same with XC if they were 6 cars rather than 4 would people complain?

To add. I never understood why TPE added first class, never really used and on the 158s in particular it was a clear reduction in capacity. If you have 9 seats in first earning £30 per ticket. If is better than 12 in standard earning £20 per ticket. But I absolutely get your point on many routes this isn’t the case. LNER do yield management well. FGW, XC and TPE I look but have never see a difference I am prepared to pay for the environment. The later 2 I have used first because of a connection. Normally no more that 4 people in the coach compared to standard.

Are people looking down their noses? I don’t think so. The biggest place I see for the snobbery is on here. Mainly from younger members using their railcards.
 

Butts

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Speaking as one of the biggest "freeloaders" on here, I just love travelling 1st Class on HST's or Pendolinos for a minimal amount and easily exceeding the value of my fare in complimentary Scotch. Add in the Lounge Access and it's a no brainer.

Would I ever pay top whack ? - no way
 

AM9

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There is, of course, some scope to debate what is meant by continually oversubscribed. Some people may regard this as "people standing", whilst others may regard it as "people unable to board". Likewise even with the latter it may be a case that whilst people may be left behind on a given service, there's another close behind which has room.

There aren't *that* many services in the L&SE area which have first class and where the second and especially the third of those applies. The most extreme overcrowding applies to London metro services, few of which have first class.

Meanwhile it's rather hard to reconcile the likes of Thameslink, where such a fuss is made about capacity, yet something approaching 10-15% of the length of a 700/0 is taken up with first (in body, if not always in mind).
As I've said before, the current position on Thameslink is that the timetable provides sufficient capacity to prevent chronic overloading, which before the upgrade, included daily cases of leaving passengers standing on the platform. It's unfortunate that the interference of a south London MP contributed to a shortfall in the number of 12-car units available, which in some cases is responsible for reduced capacity on GN routes, (as reported here). As far as the 1st class provision on 12-car units goes, given that the trains are due to cater for the expected increase in traffic for the next couple of decades, it may be that at some point in the future, the first class seating is reduced or even removed altogether.
'People standing' can be regarded as a reasonable compromise to accommodate the uneven loading of the railway and acknowledgement that the absolute capacity is limited by the route as well as the trains themselves. 'unable to board' is an abject failure to provide sufficient capacity and if perpetuated, is unfair to passengers who need to travel.
To answer the original post, I rarely hear of 'looking down' on 1st class passengers, (except maybe from those standing in the adjacent vestibule/saloon physically looking down at seated passengers in envy. Similarly, most paying first class passengers don't look down on the unfortunates in standard, but there are a few that think having (and spending) money makes them better persons, but as long as we hoi polloi know that they aren't, then it doesn't bother me.
 
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Ianno87

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As I've said before, the current position on Thameslink is that the timetable provides sufficient capacity to prevent chronic overloading, which before the upgrade, included daily cases of leaving passengers standing on the platform. It's unfortunate that the interference of a south London MP contributed to a shortfall in the number of 12-car units available, which in some cases is responsible for reduced capacity on GN routes, (as reported here). As far as the 1st class provision on 12-car units goes, given that the trains are due to cater for the expected increase in traffic for the next couple of decades, it may be that at some point in the future, the first class seating is reduced or even removed altogether.
'People standing' can be regarded as a reasonable compromise to accommodate the uneven loading of the railway and acknowledgement that the absolute capacity is limited by the route as well as the trains themselves. 'unable to board' is an abject failure to provide sufficient capacity and if perpetuated, is unfair to passengers who need to travel.

Thameslink has, for example, significantly reduced the frequency with which people are left behind at the likes of St Albans, East Croydon and even southbund at St Pancras in the morning peak.
 

Failed Unit

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Thameslink has, for example, significantly reduced the frequency with which people are left behind at the likes of St Albans, East Croydon and even southbund at St Pancras in the morning peak.

For every winner we have a loser. Passengers at Welwyn Garden City for example have to stand and endure a slower journey than previously with no date (if ever) when trains will go through the core.

One of the reasons for this is because the 700s have as many 1st class seats as the trains they replaced but significantly less standard. Even with the rear declassified section the ratio first to standard seats is still worse. Sat on one right now. You could make an argument that 1st should go on this route. The people in 1st would have got a seat as they all got on North of WGC. The people at WGC and further South would get a better chance.

Is anyone looking down? No but they are not happy people are standing in 1st. What is the alternative? Leave them on the platform.
 

Goldfish62

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It's an obsession based on this country's ridiculous class based social structure which a lot of people wrongly equate with classes on travel on the railways. !st Class exists on railways throughout the world, but there's not the same inverted snobbery about it for this very reason.
 

trainophile

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No. If the train service is continually oversubscribed and there is no opportunity to increase capacity, then it is unreasonable to waste some of that finite capacity with 1st class accommodation. If that space was fitted for standard class passengers, the full capacity of the service would be available. Quite simple to understand really.

With due respect, you continue to miss the point of the current discussion, and promote your alternative view about the very existence of 1st Class, which perhaps needs another thread... I can’t believe there isn’t one already.

I had a thought in the night - is it the term “1st Class” that puts people’s backs up, in the mistaken belief that those who use it consider themselves upper crust? Been trying to come up with an alternative, maybe Extra Room or ER for short? Would that sound more egalitarian?

Oh and I hope you don’t mind me saying AM9, but paragraphs would make your posts easier to read.
 

dk1

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You could call it "Business" or somesuch, like Chiltern did.
Which sounds ridiculous at weekends. Virgin tried to call it Premier or Club class in the early days & didn't work. It's not an plane it's a train. Always has been 1st class & in my opinion always should be.
 

neilmc

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Only ever travelled first class in India, where you pay maybe £1 instead of 20p so the financial difference is negligible compared to the reassurance of, say, actually having a toilet you can use. Except for one quirky journey when a London-Manchester first class single came up as cheaper than a standard; had to explain that at work since they'd clamped down on the first class expenses scam!
 

Spamcan81

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With due respect, you continue to miss the point of the current discussion, and promote your alternative view about the very existence of 1st Class, which perhaps needs another thread... I can’t believe there isn’t one already.

I had a thought in the night - is it the term “1st Class” that puts people’s backs up, in the mistaken belief that those who use it consider themselves upper crust? Been trying to come up with an alternative, maybe Extra Room or ER for short? Would that sound more egalitarian?

Oh and I hope you don’t mind me saying AM9, but paragraphs would make your posts easier to read.

Or do as they do in China, and possibly elsewhere, call them hard class and soft class.
 

Leo1961

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Seems just the typical cycle of virtue signalling from the Competitively Offended. Here's how it works:

CO: "First class is evil and kills baby seals. We demand everybody travels Standard."
[Train operators meekly comply; business travelers and wealthier folks travel by air instead.]
CO: "But airplanes are evil and kill baby dolphins. We demand nobody travels by air."
[Regulators meekly comply. Quickly afterward, the private sector embraces the sudden market for ultra-luxury coach travel.]
CO: "But coaches that posh are evil and kill baby koalas. Trains are more efficient..."
[At which point, anyone with half a brain shrugs their shoulders and emigrates.]

Basically it's jealousy masquerading as "activism", and is best handled by ignoring it completely.

On a lighter note, I've noticed my own double standards, traveling by air. On my own dime I'll travel on the cheapest dates possible, and take delight in every economy I can muster (e.g. grabbing a luggage cart from a parking area, rather than paying for one in the terminal). I then board the plane and sneer with disgust at the snobs in the front cabin, marinating in their expensive perfumes/deodorants while checking they don't have a hair out of place..... However if I'm on expenses then having taken my seat upfront, I sneer with disgust at the oiks slouching past towards the back of the airplane, who haven't washed in months and can't use a comb........ muhahaa. :D:D8-)

We really could do with a "like" button on here...
 

GRALISTAIR

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Advance deals in First Class at non peak times are really a steal sometimes. Why would I not travel in First? Euston - Preston on a Saturday morning after getting off an overnight red-eye from the states - no brainer.
 

Doomotron

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Whike it's hard to explain why I don't like people who sit in first class, it might come from...
a) Stereotypes, like BMW drivers being ignorant t****.
b) Jealousy

I'm guessing the former, because whenever I walk through first class my brain automatically says words that would get me banned from this forum. :D
 

Bletchleyite

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Whike it's hard to explain why I don't like people who sit in first class, it might come from...
a) Stereotypes, like BMW drivers being ignorant t****.
b) Jealousy

I'm guessing the former, because whenever I walk through first class my brain automatically says words that would get me banned from this forum. :D

The thing about BMW drivers is that so many of them are poor drivers. I don't get the stereotype of First Class passengers simply because there isn't one - there is a similar mix of people to Standard ever since the First Advance and Weekend First became a thing.

The only difference between First and Standard passengers is that the former felt that it was, on that occasion, good value to pay the extra requested for some additional features.
 

SteveM70

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Even M.Ps can only claim for standard class fares these days.

That isn’t true

The amount they can claim is capped at the standard anytime single; if they can get a first class advance cheaper that’s fine.

I specifically checked this with the Parliamentary expenses people because my MP - who knows a lot about expenses - does it all the time

In my opinion, they should travel at the least cost for the journey they make, accepting sometimes an anytime ticket is necessary eg if they’re unsure about what train they’ll get. But the fact that 99% of the time if a first class advance is less than a standard class anytime single, then a standard class advance would be cheaper still, and represent best value to the taxpayer

It’s as if they’ve let the expenses scandal die down and starting looking for ways to game the new system.
 

duffield

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That isn’t true

The amount they can claim is capped at the standard anytime single; if they can get a first class advance cheaper that’s fine.

I specifically checked this with the Parliamentary expenses people because my MP - who knows a lot about expenses - does it all the time

In my opinion, they should travel at the least cost for the journey they make, accepting sometimes an anytime ticket is necessary eg if they’re unsure about what train they’ll get. But the fact that 99% of the time if a first class advance is less than a standard class anytime single, then a standard class advance would be cheaper still, and represent best value to the taxpayer

It’s as if they’ve let the expenses scandal die down and starting looking for ways to game the new system.

I don't object to my MP travelling in and claiming 1st class *if* they are working hard during the journey and have lots of papers and a laptop! That's good value for my taxes.
 

SteveM70

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I don't object to my MP travelling in and claiming 1st class *if* they are working hard during the journey and have lots of papers and a laptop! That's good value for my taxes.

The fact is that the expenses policy is framed around standard class travel, and the parliamentary expenses people mentioned in their reply to me that any first class claim over the cost of a standard class ticket justified on the grounds of security/space to work would be rejected.
 
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