Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

brad465 · 8 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I'm not allowed it, but if I was I'd be more likely to work on board, which is near impossible in a very upright non-table Standard seat.

xotGD said:
I'm not sure how complementary gin 'promotes working whilst travelling'. Perhaps in the creative industries.

A standard class table seat provides a perfectly adequate workspace. Anyone claiming they need to be in first in order to get some work done is just trying it on.

I should clarify I don't know anyone who has "lobbyed" for the work promoting idea, I certainly haven't, but remember reading about it in the travel policy last year (I'll have another read and see if it's changed). The case of travelling 1st for autistic employees is definitely something I've heard used before however.

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trainophile · 8 Oct 2019

Doomotron said:
Whike it's hard to explain why I don't like people who sit in first class, it might come from...
a) Stereotypes, like BMW drivers being ignorant t****.
b) Jealousy

I'm guessing the former, because whenever I walk through first class my brain automatically says words that would get me banned from this forum.

So you have a policy of disliking all individuals who ever travel in 1st Class?

Crumbs o_O

.

nlogax · 8 Oct 2019

Doomotron said:
Whike it's hard to explain why I don't like people who sit in first class, it might come from...
a) Stereotypes, like BMW drivers being ignorant t****.
b) Jealousy

I'm guessing the former, because whenever I walk through first class my brain automatically says words that would get me banned from this forum.

Please try to remember that not everyone sitting in 1st is earning a king's ransom.

trainophile · 8 Oct 2019

nlogax said:
Please try to remember that not everyone sitting in 1st is earning a king's ransom.

Some of us are no longer earning at all!

Very pleasant trip from Liverpool to Scarborough today, only a tenner more than in Standard. Of course I realise having a railcard makes a difference, and appreciate that people who don’t have one would pay a bigger differential. Still pretty affordable though with the cheapest Advances.

My B&B is £30 a night, my dinner is leftover sandwiches and tomorrow’s breakfast is a 39p porridge pot. I prefer to economise on the unavoidable costs when I travel, so I can enjoy the actual journey more.

Tetchytyke · 8 Oct 2019

dk1 said:
Virgin tried to call it Premier or Club class in the early days & didn't work. It's not an plane it's a train.

They only did that on XC, and it was mainly because you got fewer freebies than in the proper 1st class it replaced.

duffield said:
I don't object to my MP travelling in and claiming 1st class *if* they are working hard during the journey and have lots of papers and a laptop! That's good value for my taxes.

Now I do. MPs are paid very handsomely, they can pay the difference themselves. I do through my work.

gazzaa2 · 8 Oct 2019

nlogax said:
Please try to remember that not everyone sitting in 1st is earning a king's ransom.

There's people in first class who will have paid maybe substantially less than people in standard (much cheaper ticket bought in advance upgraded etc).

It's more of a difference on planes. You can't just walk onto the first class coach and bung the ticket inspector 20 quid.

Bletchleyite · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They only did that on XC, and it was mainly because you got fewer freebies than in the proper 1st class it replaced

Almost...XC never had the freebie-heavy 1st that WC had, it was always just tea, coffee and water collected from the buffet (no great issue collecting as the buffet was right next to 1st) and possibly a biccy, but it was indeed to stop people being confused by the difference.

Now I do. MPs are paid very handsomely, they can pay the difference themselves. I do through my work.

I don't agree with that. If someone needs the space to work properly on a laptop with papers, the company should cover it - but they would be expected to work, not just sit gawping out of the window. If someone wants to upgrade when not working that should indeed be out of their own pocket. That to me is regardless of salary, which is remuneration for your skills and time and is totally separate from any travel matters.

As for MPs I think they should be paid more, not less (in order to get really good quality people - the PM is seriously underpaid for what is basically the CEO of the country, and what did we get?) but there should be fewer of them. However expenses should be paid on the same basis as a typical commercial company.

radamfi · 8 Oct 2019

Is first class controversial outside the UK? First class seems to be more prevalent on local trains in other countries.

Bletchleyite · 8 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
Is first class controversial outside the UK? First class seems to be more prevalent on local trains in other countries.

I've not noticed it being, but it doesn't typically come at such a whacking premium - typically it's about 1.5-1.6 times the usually reasonable Standard fares and as such it's simply a choice of a slightly higher comfort level.

alistairlees · 8 Oct 2019

AM9 said:
No. If the train service is continually oversubscribed and there is no opportunity to increase capacity, then it is unreasonable to waste some of that finite capacity with 1st class accommodation. If that space was fitted for standard class passengers, the full capacity of the service would be available. Quite simple to understand really.

And if a standard class only train with 2+2 seating is continually oversubscribed, then pack ‘em in on 2+3! And if that is oversubscribed then pack em in on ... etc etc. There’s no logic to your argument. It’s just reducing everyone to the lowest possible level. We should be trying to attract people to travel by rail, not putting them off!

Bletchleyite · 8 Oct 2019

alistairlees said:
And if a standard class only train with 2+2 seating is continually oversubscribed, then pack ‘em in on 2+3! And if that is oversubscribed then pack em in on ... etc etc. There’s no logic to your argument. It’s just reducing everyone to the lowest possible level. We should be trying to attract people to travel by rail, not putting them off!

Fundamentally, there should not, as a matter of course, be standees on InterCity rail services. Capacity needs to be properly provided such that there aren't, other than in the event of disruption.

On commuter services standees are probably necessary up to about half an hour. I don't, however, support First Class provision on commuter trains, though if you look at what sort of First Class is typically provided it usually doesn't take up any more space than Standard, it tends to be the same or very similar seats with an antimacassar added.

alistairlees · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
Now I do. MPs are paid very handsomely, they can pay the difference themselves. I do through my work.

So you would rather their output was suboptimal because it was possible to do less work / less good quality work? And that people in the country suffered because of this?

Generally I hope to get the best out of people, especially those who have the ability to most affect the lives of others. This is in the interests of everyone, whether travelling in first class or not.

alistairlees · 8 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Fundamentally, there should not, as a matter of course, be standees on InterCity rail services. Capacity needs to be properly provided such that there aren't, other than in the event of disruption.

On commuter services standees are probably necessary up to about half an hour. I don't, however, support First Class provision on commuter trains, though if you look at what sort of First Class is typically provided it usually doesn't take up any more space than Standard, it tends to be the same or very similar seats with an antimacassar added.

I was referring to intercity services.

Ianno87 · 8 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I don't agree with that. If someone needs the space to work properly on a laptop with papers, the company should cover it - but they would be expected to work, not just sit gawping out of the window. If someone wants to upgrade when not working that should indeed be out of their own pocket. That to me is regardless of salary, which is remuneration for your skills and time and is totally separate from any travel matters.

I think the extra privacy in first class is reasonable as well, especially if dealing with sensitive constituency matters.

My employer only permits standard class (unless first happens to be cheaper) and there have been times when I've stopped work if there's a risk somebody sat next to me may be reading my screen.

As for MPs I think they should be paid more, not less (in order to get really good quality people - the PM is seriously underpaid for what is basically the CEO of the country, and what did we get?) but there should be fewer of them. However expenses should be paid on the same basis as a typical commercial company.

Going OT, but a higher salary also should come with much tougher standards to adhere to. The last 3 and a half years have seen behaviour and practices from a handful of MPs that would see them sacked in any other job with such responsibility.

Tetchytyke · 8 Oct 2019

alistairlees said:
So you would rather their output was suboptimal because it was possible to do less work / less good quality work? And that people in the country suffered because of this?

How much work could an MP *actually* do? They can't do constituency work- it's confidential- and they can't do Parliamentary work- it's confidential.

It's the same in most businesses- you can't work on anything sensitive because of confidentiality- which is why "working on the train" is such a fallacy.

Ianno87 · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
How much work could an MP *actually* do? They can't do constituency work- it's confidential- and they can't do Parliamentary work- it's confidential.

It's the same in most businesses- you can't work on anything sensitive because of confidentiality- which is why "working on the train" is such a fallacy.

There's tons of stuff you can sensibly do working on trains that isn't sensitive...you just need to plan not doing anything sensitive when travelling and there's a risk it might be seen.

6Gman · 8 Oct 2019

xotGD said:
I'm not sure how complementary gin 'promotes working whilst travelling'. Perhaps in the creative industries.

A standard class table seat provides a perfectly adequate workspace. Anyone claiming they need to be in first in order to get some work done is just trying it on.

Except that actually getting a Standard Class table seat is something of a long shot with all that airline seating.

trainophile · 8 Oct 2019

Can’t you get privacy screen protectors that make it impossible to read unless you’re directly in front of it? I know you can for phones.

Another benefit of 1st for people wishing to work is that there’s more likely to be power sockets than in a lot of Standard coaches. If it’s a several hour journey and they are using a laptop it’s going to need charging.

6Gman · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
How much work could an MP *actually* do? They can't do constituency work- it's confidential- and they can't do Parliamentary work- it's confidential.

It's the same in most businesses- you can't work on anything sensitive because of confidentiality- which is why "working on the train" is such a fallacy.

Neither the bulk of constituency work nor the bulk of parliamentary work is confidential.

Hadders · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
MPs are paid very handsomely

A back bench MP is paid a little under £80k a year. A good salary but not massive when compared to senior managers in many large organisations, for example.

Not much job security for many MPs either.

Tetchytyke · 8 Oct 2019

Hadders said:
A good salary but not massive when compared to senior managers in many large organisations, for example.

MPs aren't senior managers, though.

It's a decent chunk of money for what is, essentially, a job with no entry requirements. And they may not always have job security, a minimum £35,000 severance package isn't to be sniffed at. Nor is the pension.

I'm not one for the whole greedy MPs line, but they're really not underpaid and increasing the salary wouldn't change their competence.

Getting back to the point, I'm a middle manager in a charitable organisation and I have to pay extra if I want to go first class. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I don't see how MPs are different, given they can't sit on the train doing anything that is remotely sensitive (so no constituency casework, no legislation, no Ministerial work).

dk1 · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
They only did that on XC, and it was mainly because you got fewer freebies than in the proper 1st class it replaced.

Ahh thanks. Knew I was right in one way or another. Stupid idea from those early days of privatisation.

Bletchleyite · 8 Oct 2019

Arctic Troll said:
It's the same in most businesses- you can't work on anything sensitive because of confidentiality- which is why "working on the train" is such a fallacy.

No, it's not. If I'm sat there writing code, nobody is going to be bothered to snoop over my shoulder nor are they likely to understand its context if they did.

xotGD · 8 Oct 2019

6Gman said:
Except that actually getting a Standard Class table seat is something of a long shot with all that airline seating.

9 times out of 10 I get a reservation at a table seat when I ask for one. Even on XC.

And I get just as much work done in Standard as I do in First. Even without the free gin. Or maybe because of it!

Tetchytyke · 8 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
If I'm sat there writing code, nobody is going to be bothered to snoop over my shoulder nor are they likely to understand its context if they did.

That's a narrow subset of a specific industry though.

You couldn't do business financials, or HR, or legal analysis, or client facing work, or business reports, or bidding/procurement, on a train.

When I'm travelling I get to do the little silly stuff that I wouldn't do at my desk because it's neither urgent nor important. Everything else is confidential.

ivanhoe · 8 Oct 2019

It's only an issue for me on short formed trains, but not out of any jealousy. I've traveled extensively on Spanish trains, often first class and my only criteria is price.

Sankey Wire · 8 Oct 2019

Jealousy. It’s the same in many other areas of life. Clothes, holidays, choice of restaurant etc.

AM9 · 8 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
With due respect, you continue to miss the point of the current discussion, and promote your alternative view about the very existence of 1st Class, which perhaps needs another thread... I can’t believe there isn’t one already.

I had a thought in the night - is it the term “1st Class” that puts people’s backs up, in the mistaken belief that those who use it consider themselves upper crust? Been trying to come up with an alternative, maybe Extra Room or ER for short? Would that sound more egalitarian?

'With due respect', you really have missed the point of my arguments. Nowhere have I said that there is anything elitist about 1st class, nor should it be universally removed for equality reasons. I can understand the plight of passengers who cannot get on a normally capacity limited service because of poor utilisation of space by having 1st class accommodation. That may be the driver of some comments here but none of those comments are coming from me. I certainly don't have a hang-up about the term 1st class, nor am I an inverted snob, but I do consider the things that drive others to make comments that might seem like inverted snobbery to you.
My point is that where capacity is limited, the railway should not grant more space to a few at the expense of those who are prevented from travelling on that train. The issue of some advance 1st fares being cheaper than off peak standard class tickets is irrelevant, - at least certainly to this thread.

trainophile said:
Oh and I hope you don’t mind me saying AM9, but paragraphs would make your posts easier to read.

I have no Idea what you are talking about. I stopped writing a separate paragraph for every sentence before I left primary school.

jkkne · 9 Oct 2019

this is possibly the most embittered childish thread I’ve seen in some time.

If people choose to pay for 1st class be it for the free gin, the extra space, relative calm or they quite like the colour of the curtains as the sun rises over Doncaster then that’s there choice. And those who don’t pay vice versa.

it’s the new vogue of the social media era. Everyone must fit into a box, everyone must have an opinion on said box and anyone disagreeing with that opinion of my box I shall criticise.

Master29 · 9 Oct 2019

trainophile said:
Other people seemed to get it .

I just booked Plymouth to Newton Abbot (37 minutes) for a midweek evening journey in less than three weeks time. Advance 1st was 75p dearer than Standard (with railcard). Nothing to do with snobbery, just I know GWR will be rammed at that time of day, and at least we should be able to access our reserved seats.

You can, in this part of the world get some good deals for 1st class which I regularly have done in the past and still do with the likes of crosscountry where it is often literally pennies in price difference. On GWR`s new style sham of what is rumoured to pass as 1st class I simply don`t bother as it isn`t worth it anymore since the HST has gone.

Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

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