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First Class on local services.

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Gwenllian2001

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Before the introduction of DMUs, the First Class Compartments on local services in South Wales were normally kept locked except for the morning and evening peaks, when a considerable amount of 1st Class Season Ticket holders would be travelling. At other times it was necessary to get platform staff to unlock a compartment in order to join, or leave the train. This was a nuisance at stations where arrival platform faces were on the opposite side to boarding. Trying to attract platform staff at Pontypridd, to let you out, was always a nuisance.
Did this happen in other parts of the country?
 
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AY1975

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I know this is a different era from the one you are talking about (indeed the period you are referring to was long before my time!) but I seem to recall some time in the early 1980s, shortly before First Class was abolished on most local services in the North-West, seeing a Class 304 EMU at probably Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent with two of its three First Class compartment doors locked and only the one at the outer end of the Trailer Composite unlocked, and passengers attempting to open the locked doors. It was possible to access the other two compartments via the end one, though.

I presume this was done on off-peak services so that a member of station staff or a travelling ticket inspector could stand by the one unlocked First Class compartment door and check the tickets of First Class passengers boarding or alighting. I'm not sure how widespread this practice was, though. This was one way of policing the First Class on non-gangwayed EMUs and DMUs - obviously not so practicable on coaches or units with non-corridor First Class compartments.

See also the thread on Class 304 EMUs at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-304-emus.166141/
 

Failed Unit

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I recall 1st class on the 1st gen DMUs but it was mainly declassified by the mid 80s. The seats remained however.
 

33017

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One of my great-grandfathers commuted from Dinas Powys to Grangetown in the 1920s and 30s (at least). A first class season ticket holder, he was apparently given a carriage key so he could open and lock compartments as required.
 

A0wen

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Back in the 90s, when the GN inner suburban service at weekends ran into Kings Cross, I seem to recall it wasn't uncommon for Hornsey to send 317s out on such services. The 317s of course being outer suburban units had 1st class whereas the inner suburban service and the 313s which were the usual units didn't have it.
 

PeterC

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Back in the 90s, when the GN inner suburban service at weekends ran into Kings Cross, I seem to recall it wasn't uncommon for Hornsey to send 317s out on such services. The 317s of course being outer suburban units had 1st class whereas the inner suburban service and the 313s which were the usual units didn't have it.
Substitution of various outer suburban units on second class only routes was a regular occurrence under both BR and TOCs out of Liverpool Street.
 

Failed Unit

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I remember them.
Did they make them into a non-smoking compartment?
I don’t recall that. My memory of smoking on trains was to avoid a certain coach. But on local services I think it was just a section.

can’t believe we had smoking on 2 car DMUs now. (And the tube for that matter). How times change.
 

Springs Branch

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In the 1960s and 70s, my posh auntie and uncle led a comfortable but modest middle-class life in one of the nicer areas of Bolton.

Their neighbours in the adjoining semi might well have been the inspiration for Hyacinth Bucket.

From time to time, with husbands safely at work (tightly-furled brollies & briefcases in hand - my uncle was a middle-ranking civil servant, the neighbour a solicitor) and if my aunt wasn't quick enough in finding a "previous engagement", Mrs Bouquet would dragoon her onto daytime shopping trips to the better department stores in Manchester or Liverpool.

These excursions were accomplished by train (DMUs from Bolton to Manchester Victoria or Liverpool Exchange), where "Hyacinth" insisted they travel in First Class. This was presumably to avoid any chance of encountering riff-raff, since there was certainly no problem getting a seat on off-peak local trains in that era (if you were lucky you might get a whole Second Class carriage to yourself).

I'm not sure how much the First Class tickets cost back then relative to typical incomes, but in the absence of Cheap Day Returns, railcards etc, the fare was probably an unwelcome drain on my auntie's housekeeping funds. Also, I suspect, an indulgence she kept more-or-less to herself, my uncle being a thrifty Scot.

Having observed that local DMUs always pottered around with their First Class compartment completely empty, I wonder if these two ladies might have accumulated a collection of consecutively-numbered Edmondson First Class Returns from Bolton T. St. to Liverpool Ex.
 
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mailbyrail

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I remember using the train to school between 67 and 70.
The service was the Chester-Rock Ferry dmu, there were often passengers in the first class compartment in the morning, but I don't remember them being on board the afternoon return services.
 

Mogz

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I remember the North Wales Coast Class 37 hauled trains in the 90s and early 2000s always had a few First Class compartments. These were usually Mk 2 stock in Regional Railways livery. Occasionally you got some Mk 1s with a few Standard Class compartments too. There was one coach doing the rounds that was a Mk 1 with all First Class compartments too, if I recall correctly.

Latterly I think these were declassified.

I remember travelling in a Class 101 in Network South East livery on the Borderlands line too, once. That had a very comfortable de-classified First Class end compartment with the front window blinds up which was great!
 
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Journeyman

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I remember the North Wales Coast Class 37 hauled trains in the 90s and early 2000s always had a few First Class compartments. These were usually Mk 2 stock in Regional Railways livery. Occasionally you got some Mk 1s with a few Standard Class compartments too. There was one coach doing the rounds that was a Mk 1 with all First Class compartments too, if I recall correctly.

Yeah, it was mostly Mk 2 BFKs, but there was certainly a Mk 1 FK knocking about for a while - I travelled in it once. I did a few trips in the late nineties - mainly late at night - and they only charged a small supplement for first class. It was dead easy getting a compartment to yourself.
 

Journeyman

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I remember using the train to school between 67 and 70.
The service was the Chester-Rock Ferry dmu, there were often passengers in the first class compartment in the morning, but I don't remember them being on board the afternoon return services.

Possibly well-heeled commuters in the morning, but given that schools usually finish before offices, you'd have been to early to see them on their way home.
 

Springs Branch

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.......... can’t believe we had smoking on 2 car DMUs. (And the tube for that matter). How times change.
Thinking back to how most 1st generation low-density DMUs on local services had just one 12-seat First Class compartment per set, I was interested in how BR handled smoking / non-smoking segregation when smoking was still widespread.

Luckily the Railcar.co.uk website has comprehensive info on all sorts of DMU stuff, accessible with just a couple of clicks - including diagrams of many of the cars in their original 1950s/60s forms.

So answering my own question:-
  • First Class travellers usually did not have any non-smoking accommodation on the low-density DMUs.
    Bad luck if you ended up sharing your journey with a pipe or cigar-smoking businessman (although outside the rush hour into a major city, you'd almost certainly have the First Class to yourself)

  • Even in Second Class, non-smoking seats were in a significant minority.
    Originally the relatively small Second Class non-smoking section was positioned between the driver's cab and the first set of doors - analogous to where the First Class was located in the adjoining car, but with 19 rather than 12 seats.**

  • The LMR BRCW "white stripe" units were relatively enlighted by having a second First Class section in the middle trailer car which was designated non-smoking, plus extra non-smoking seats in the Second Class.

  • IIRC, as smoking on public transport began to be discouraged, BR increased the proportion of non-smoking to smoking seats before smoking on trains came to be banned altogether. Not sure whether it was smoking or First Class which disappeared first!
Looking at some typical numbers (when the units were first built):

LMR 2-car Metro-Cammell Class 101:
86 seats (74%) 2nd Smoking
19 seats (16%) 2nd Non-Smoking
12 seats (10%) 1st Smoking

LMR 2-car Cravens Class 105:
84 seats (73%) 2nd Smoking
19 seats (17%) 2nd Non-Smoking
12 seats (10%) 1st Smoking

LMR 3-car BRCW Class 104: (Newton Heath "white stripe" units)
120 seats (65%) 2nd Smoking
40 seats (22%) 2nd Non-Smoking
12 seats (7%) 1st Smoking
12 seats (7%) 1st Non-Smoking

** This explains my dad's groan of dismay on family train trips, when we children spotted that the Second Class seats directly behind the driver were empty and the blinds were up. He was an inveterate smoker and this meant he had to endure the journey in the non-smoking compartment while my brother and I enjoyed the view ahead.
 

WesternLancer

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In the 1960s and 70s, my posh auntie and uncle led a comfortable but modest middle-class life in one of the nicer areas of Bolton.

Their neighbours in the adjoining semi might well have been the inspiration for Hyacinth Bucket.

From time to time, with husbands safely at work (tightly-furled brollies & briefcases in hand - my uncle was a middle-ranking civil servant, the neighbour a solicitor) and if my aunt wasn't quick enough in finding a "previous engagement", Mrs Bouquet would dragoon her onto daytime shopping trips to the better department stores in Manchester or Liverpool.

These excursions were accomplished by train (DMUs from Bolton to Manchester Victoria or Liverpool Exchange), where "Hyacinth" insisted they travel in First Class. This was presumably to avoid any chance of encountering riff-raff, since there was certainly no problem getting a seat on off-peak local trains in that era (if you were lucky you might get a whole Second Class carriage to yourself).

I'm not sure how much the First Class tickets cost back then relative to typical incomes, but in the absence of Cheap Day Returns, railcards etc, the fare was probably an unwelcome drain on my auntie's housekeeping funds. Also, I suspect, an indulgence she kept more-or-less to herself, my uncle being a thrifty Scot.

Having observed that local DMUs always pottered around with their First Class compartment completely empty, I wonder if these two ladies might have accumulated a collection of consecutively-numbered Edmondson First Class Returns from Bolton T. St. to Liverpool Ex.
Great story - back at the time I wonder if 1st class would have been about 50% higher price than the 2nd class fare? Often as it still is on many Continental trains I think.
 

Springs Branch

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Great story - back at the time I wonder if 1st class would have been about 50% higher price than the 2nd class fare? Often as it still is on many Continental trains I think.
Yes, First Class fares were set at 50% higher than Second Class. The killer was that Cheap Day Returns, Off Peak Returns etc (which were the natural choice for a daytime trip to the shops) were only available on Second Class tickets at the time.

So for the indulgent day out, you'd potentially be buying a First Class Anytime Return valid for 3 months, and paying well over double what was really necessary for the trip from A to B and back again.
 

WesternLancer

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Yes, First Class fares were set at 50% higher than Second Class. The killer was that Cheap Day Returns, Off Peak Returns etc (which were the natural choice for a daytime trip to the shops) were only available on Second Class tickets at the time.

So for the indulgent day out, you'd potentially be buying a First Class Anytime Return valid for 3 months, and paying well over double what was really necessary for the trip from A to B and back again.
Thanks - I did wonder if that was the case. Obv BR was happy to have plenty of empty seats for much of the day as a result!
 

Mark62

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I vividly remember taking the 10. 20 (or thereabouts) stopper from Berwick to Alnmouth. It was a dmu. I can't remember where this train terminated. This was maybe in 1988. It had a first class compartment that was declassified. We had travelled from Edinburgh and had to change at Berwick for Alnmouth.
There was only the two of us on the train. The first class seats were extremely comfortable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thanks - I did wonder if that was the case. Obv BR was happy to have plenty of empty seats for much of the day as a result!

Virgin Trains were, in about 1998 or so, the first TOC to introduce any kind of discounted First Class ticket other than Weekend First - the Virgin Value First which became the First Advance.

Before that on a weekday it was Anytime (Day) Singles or Returns only, so it had no role as a leisure product.
 

Mark62

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We used to do weekend first from Edinburgh to London in the late 80s and into the 90s well before the network was franchised
 

Aictos

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Back in the 90s, when the GN inner suburban service at weekends ran into Kings Cross, I seem to recall it wasn't uncommon for Hornsey to send 317s out on such services. The 317s of course being outer suburban units had 1st class whereas the inner suburban service and the 313s which were the usual units didn't have it.

Doesn’t mean those services had first class though if they were not advertised as having it for example there used to be a late night Letchworth to Kings Cross via Hertford all stations formed of a single Class 317, def no 1st class on that service as it was declassified.
 

Czesziafan

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One of my great-grandfathers commuted from Dinas Powys to Grangetown in the 1920s and 30s (at least). A first class season ticket holder, he was apparently given a carriage key so he could open and lock compartments as required.

Some companies issued 1st class season ticket holders with personal carriage keys, some of which were folding for convenience and a few even made of silver. This ensured high status passengers' privacy. Class segregation on the railways in Victorian and Edwardian times was rigid, but the first class season ticket holders were invariably business people who wanted to work on the journey and did not wish to be disturbed by other people.
 
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Czesziafan

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Virgin Trains were, in about 1998 or so, the first TOC to introduce any kind of discounted First Class ticket other than Weekend First - the Virgin Value First which became the First Advance.

Before that on a weekday it was Anytime (Day) Singles or Returns only, so it had no role as a leisure product.

In the seventies on BR(W) it was common at weekends for first class compartments to have a declassified window label as few first class passengers travelled on those days.
 

AY1975

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In the seventies on BR(W) it was common at weekends for first class compartments to have a declassified window label as few first class passengers travelled on those days.

You used to get those on InterCity trains on all regions IIRC - certainly on the Midland Main Line, where my parents and I often took advantage of them when I was a kid.
 

AY1975

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Virgin Trains were, in about 1998 or so, the first TOC to introduce any kind of discounted First Class ticket other than Weekend First - the Virgin Value First which became the First Advance.

Before that on a weekday it was Anytime (Day) Singles or Returns only, so it had no role as a leisure product.

Yes, except that towards the end of the BR era in the early '90s, BR InterCity introduced "Leisure First" tickets. I know this is getting off topic, though, as this thread is meant to be about First Class on local services.
 

AY1975

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Not sure whether it was smoking or First Class which disappeared first!

On most local services (and even many medium-distance non-InterCity services) First Class was phased out in the 1980s and smoking accommodation in the '90s.

Conversely, most longer-distance services in the former Network SouthEast area likewise became completely non-smoking by about 1993, just before the start of rail privatisation, but retain First Class to this day (with a few exceptions such as London Tilbury & Southend (now c2c), Chiltern, and South Western Railway Waterloo-Reading services which are now Standard Class only). Out of the former NSE train operators, only South West Trains (now SWR) retained smoking accommodation on its longer-distance services until about 2004.

Also, for a time in the 1990s and early 2000s some routes retained smoking accommodation in Standard Class but not in First Class (e.g. Class 159 DMUs on Waterloo-Exeter, Midland Mainline HSTs, some Cross-Country HSTs).
 

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IIRC, when BR phased out First Class on DMUs in the northwest, this wasn't done in a clean-cut way.

There was a transition period, maybe six months or up to a year, starting in the middle of a timetable period. During this time, some local lines (e.g. Manchester - Southport) had a peculiar, seemingly random mix of trains, some officially designated in the timetable as two-class, others as Second Class only.

Distribution of the remaining trains with 1st Class through the day didn't seem to follow any kind of rhyme or reason e.g. it wasn't designed to cater for a small handful of commuters with First Class Seasons. Maybe it related to the weekly diagrams of particular units.

BR issued a Kafkaesque supplement to the public timetable attempting to explain the situation - largely in words. e.g. "20:12 Manchester Victoria to Wigan Wallgate. On Monday to Thursday and Saturday is Second Class only" (implying to the cognoscenti, but not stating clearly, that you could still enjoy a journey in First, but only on Friday evenings).

Of course, all this had no relevance whatsoever to the huge majority of passengers, as almost no-one travelled in First, and there were usually plenty of seats in Second in that era.
Possibly BR wanted to "properly" declassify the First Class area - remove the [1] stickers, orange curtains etc. rather than just a "For Use of Second Class Ticket Holders" paper sticker.

I always remember that timetable supplement as a shining example of elaborate BR bureaucracy.
 
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