West Lothian buses

Lothian Country looks like it's at least a bit better now?

When I see the X18 pass it doesn't ever look extremely busy (full) but it always seem to have a decent number of people onboard and from the comments on here people seem to agree it's the most popular route so far?

And when the 29 goes off surely that will increase passenger numbers on the X18 with a less service to Broxburn from First? Although it did only run hourly so might not much of a increase

Train368 said:

And when the 29 goes off surely that will increase passenger numbers on the X18 with a less service to Broxburn from First? Although it did only run hourly so might not much of a increase

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I doubt the 29 had much Bathgate - Broxburn passengers tbh. Imo it would've been better going to Livingston as it did when it was the old 9.

overthewater said:

I doubt Lothian will pull out of West Lothian now, of course there will NOT go for the kill, which is rather telling.

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Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Why is not going for the kill rather telling? You seem to think this would be enacted by introducing weekly tickets or undercutting First's fares, which is pretty easy to do in the short term without significantly affecting the profit/loss.
Is it because you think Lothian Country don't want to be stuck with the responsibility of running council contracts if First disappear? Or because they don't want the bad PR of throwing a fellow bus company (with which they had a gentleman's agreement 20 years ago) 'under the bus'?

Siemens Trains said:

Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Why is not going for the kill rather telling? You seem to think this would be enacted by introducing weekly tickets or undercutting First's fares, which is pretty easy to do in the short term without significantly affecting the profit/loss.
Is it because you think Lothian Country don't want to be stuck with the responsibility of running council contracts if First disappear? Or because they don't want the bad PR of throwing a fellow bus company (with which they had a gentleman's agreement 20 years ago) 'under the bus'?

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Yeah, this confused me too. What is it telling us?

Siemens Trains said:

Not sure I understand what you're getting at. Why is not going for the kill rather telling? You seem to think this would be enacted by introducing weekly tickets or undercutting First's fares, which is pretty easy to do in the short term without significantly affecting the profit/loss.
Is it because you think Lothian Country don't want to be stuck with the responsibility of running council contracts if First disappear? Or because they don't want the bad PR of throwing a fellow bus company (with which they had a gentleman's agreement 20 years ago) 'under the bus'?

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It' rather telling LCB refuses to even have a proper weekly ticket - instead we get crap 5 day ticket OR 20 day ticket via mobile, instead of normal 7 days or 28/month. Please remember the current prices were only for an introduction offer and there were supposed to have gone back up 9 months ago.

There could tech get away by just adding in those extra days on the current prices, however it must be noted the public have slagged off First for years for what their believe to be is overcharging. When in reality, First were on the ball and making passengers pay the correct amount.

I think LCB are looking at the figures and just don't see how it can make the service pay, with a proper weekly or monthly ticket while keeping the price conscious customers happy. LCB would only go after one council contract and that is X40, SD travel and Blue bus can happily deal with the rest.

I will say this If First pulls out, I can bet there will be complete **** Storm heading for LCB asking where there heck are the proper weekly and why are their getting ripped off? Never a week goes past, where a person say on SM say I would happily switch to your buses ( LCB) but I'll stick to First as it's Cheaper. First also as noted on here.. Still need deckers for peak runs, what does that tell you? LCB needs to get hold of those passengers to make the final kill and it refuse point blank to do so.

overthewater said:

It' rather telling LCB refuses to even have a proper weekly ticket - instead we get crap 5 day ticket OR 20 day ticket via mobile, instead of normal 7 days or 28/month. Please remember the current prices were only for an introduction offer and there were supposed to have gone back up 9 months ago.

There could tech get away by just adding in those extra days on the current prices, however it must be noted the public have slagged off First for years for what their believe to be is overcharging. When in reality, First were on the ball and making passengers pay the correct amount.

I think LCB are looking at the figures and just don't see how it can make the service pay, with a proper weekly or monthly ticket while keeping the price conscious customers happy. LCB would only go after one council contract and that is X40, SD travel and Blue bus can happily deal with the rest.

I will say this If First pulls out, I can bet there will be complete **** Storm heading for LCB asking where there heck are the proper weekly and why are their getting ripped off? Never a week goes past, where a person say on SM say I would happily switch to your buses ( LCB) but I'll stick to First as it's Cheaper. First also as noted on here.. Still need deckers for peak runs, what does that tell you? LCB needs to get hold of those passengers to make the final kill and it refuse point blank to do so.

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would be interesting to see how much LC would charge on the 40/x40, as ERI-livi is £2 adult, £1 child. going by the zone system, the fares would come in at £3.70 adult, £1.80 child. but saying that, horsburgh are terrible at running the 40/x40, sometimes i've seen it running 30+ mins late.

sam120 said:

would be interesting to see how much LC would charge on the 40/x40, as ERI-livi is £2 adult, £1 child. going by the zone system, the fares would come in at £3.70 adult, £1.80 child. but saying that, horsburgh are terrible at running the 40/x40, sometimes i've seen it running 30+ mins late.

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Horsburgh are terrible full stop... The fares would depend on if the contract has them decided by the council or if the operator decided, what the current set up is i'm not too sure.

overthewater said:

It' rather telling LCB refuses to even have a proper weekly ticket - instead we get crap 5 day ticket OR 20 day ticket via mobile, instead of normal 7 days or 28/month. Please remember the current prices were only for an introduction offer and there were supposed to have gone back up 9 months ago.

There could tech get away by just adding in those extra days on the current prices, however it must be noted the public have slagged off First for years for what their believe to be is overcharging. When in reality, First were on the ball and making passengers pay the correct amount.

I think LCB are looking at the figures and just don't see how it can make the service pay, with a proper weekly or monthly ticket while keeping the price conscious customers happy. LCB would only go after one council contract and that is X40, SD travel and Blue bus can happily deal with the rest.

I will say this If First pulls out, I can bet there will be complete **** Storm heading for LCB asking where there heck are the proper weekly and why are their getting ripped off? Never a week goes past, where a person say on SM say I would happily switch to your buses ( LCB) but I'll stick to First as it's Cheaper. First also as noted on here.. Still need deckers for peak runs, what does that tell you? LCB needs to get hold of those passengers to make the final kill and it refuse point blank to do so.

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Delete

Delete what? LCB just needs to go all in and get it over with...

sam120 said:

would be interesting to see how much LC would charge on the 40/x40, as ERI-livi is £2 adult, £1 child. going by the zone system, the fares would come in at £3.70 adult, £1.80 child. but saying that, horsburgh are terrible at running the 40/x40, sometimes i've seen it running 30+ mins late.

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Is it? I had no idea it was that cheap? if Lothian do go for the 40/X40 I would be surprised to be sure, would make getting to Riccarton a lot easier if you stay down Moredun/Gilmerton way and you have a Ridacard! though how it handles the bypass is a curious one! But yeah I would definitely see it going for the £3.70 fate from ERI to St John’s.

I've got to be honest. I fail to understand the importance of full weekly tickets. Is it truly because they offer 7 days travel or is it more down to cost and network coverage at this point?

Students generally travel a route 5 days a week. Workers generally travel a route 5 days a week. Bus Pass holders don't need tickets. I can't think of that many people that would want and actively use the ability to get the bus for 7 consecutive days.

I'd wager that LCB don't want to offer one long term, so have resisted introducing one, less they get a backlash for later withdrawing it.

To flip the accusation on its head, isn't it telling that First (a company not without its own problems right now) hasn't raised their prices? Do they not think people would pay more for its product?

Having a competitor stroll in and claim higher fares would be the perfect excuse for most to play the "operational costs" and "rising fuel costs" cards and lift their fares to match.

Lothian have watched First put up a fight several times before in Edinburgh, and then walk away. They also picked up the pieces when First ran from East Lothian and appear to making a success of it. They also watched on as First ran from the borders and WCM seem to be making it work.

I would guess their long game (assuming they want First gone to have the area to themselves) isn't to price First off the road. Just simply wait it out til they follow the recipe they've followed so many times before.

Time will tell if any of us are right, and more importantly, if the strategy Lothian is following will work.

Worse case scenario they have a fleet of mostly Euro 5 and 6 vehicles that can be found homes in the main fleet that just so happen to have Lothian standard rather than bespoke subsidiary interiors.

SpeedbirdA350 said:

I would have assumed if they were going to convert buses with that fund, that they'd do some of the B9TLs which are used in city centre over B7RLEs that are not in a hot spot so to speak. But I guess they COULD upgrade the B7RLEs.

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Some of the 11 plate B9s have already had SCR exhausts fitted, so I'm assuming that's where the money is going.

90019 said:

Some of the 11 plate B9s have already had SCR exhausts fitted, so I'm assuming that's where the money is going.

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Might explain the euro 6 badging I saw on the back of one of the boat tour buses as natively being a B9 it would be E5.

scosutsut said:

I've got to be honest. I fail to understand the importance of full weekly tickets. Is it truly because they offer 7 days travel or is it more down to cost and network coverage at this point?

Students generally travel a route 5 days a week. Workers generally travel a route 5 days a week. Bus Pass holders don't need tickets. I can't think of that many people that would want and actively use the ability to get the bus for 7 consecutive days.

I'd wager that LCB don't want to offer one long term, so have resisted introducing one, less they get a backlash for later withdrawing it.

To flip the accusation on its head, isn't it telling that First (a company not without its own problems right now) hasn't raised their prices? Do they not think people would pay more for its product?

Having a competitor stroll in and claim higher fares would be the perfect excuse for most to play the "operational costs" and "rising fuel costs" cards and lift their fares to match.

Lothian have watched First put up a fight several times before in Edinburgh, and then walk away. They also picked up the pieces when First ran from East Lothian and appear to making a success of it. They also watched on as First ran from the borders and WCM seem to be making it work.

I would guess their long game (assuming they want First gone to have the area to themselves) isn't to price First off the road. Just simply wait it out til they follow the recipe they've followed so many times before.

Time will tell if any of us are right, and more importantly, if the strategy Lothian is following will work.

Worse case scenario they have a fleet of mostly Euro 5 and 6 vehicles that can be found homes in the main fleet that just so happen to have Lothian standard rather than bespoke subsidiary interiors.

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Think some of the points raised above show why this is an interesting battle.

You have Lothian who are clearly investing a considerable sum in the expectation that they can dislodge First from West Lothian which was a reasonable operation for them, given the investment that they had made in newer vehicles. It's a long term punt for LB with a depot and considerable investment from their side, not least in Green Arrow. Competing on cost just means, as you say, causes problems further down the line when fares have to return to a more sustainable level.

On the flip side, you have First. First have done exactly what was expected in that they have tactically ratcheted up some services to try to stifle LB. The question has always been how long First would seek to dig in. The BrightBus operation was a bit of a surprise but, when you step back and look at it, it makes a lot of sense. Rather than try to retaliate against the main LB operation (that undoubtedly has a loyal following), they have gone for the transient tourist market that is also a bit of a cash cow for Lothian, and have done so with a low cost, low capital incursion.

People have sought to draw parallels with First in the past. North Devon has been mentioned and we also have East/Mid Lothian and the Borders. In the former, LB had been able to go in having retaliated for the earlier bus wars. The Borders is slightly different in that there was no battle but that the main moneyspinner was the 95 and that had been undermined by the railway. In the end, there was probably not room for two operators in the area and so consolidation made sense. Going back to WL, the view was probably for First to dig in, try to smother Lothian as much as possible, and not merely capitulate given the signal that would have given in Scotland and elsewhere.

Now, does the fact that First Bus is up for divestment change that? Possibly. Will they sustain the losses? Could they do something similar to Plymouth and sell to Stagecoach and, in that instance, would Lothian follow Go Ahead's lead there and retreat; it's one thing taking on First but Stagecoach? It could well be that we're still having these conversations in a years' time. I don't see Lothian walking in that time. First might but equally, they may still feel that they have to keep up the fight. If in two years' time, it's stalemate with both firms losing money, that's a different scenario again.

scosutsut said:

I've got to be honest. I fail to understand the importance of full weekly tickets. Is it truly because they offer 7 days travel or is it more down to cost and network coverage at this point?

Students generally travel a route 5 days a week. Workers generally travel a route 5 days a week. Bus Pass holders don't need tickets. I can't think of that many people that would want and actively use the ability to get the bus for 7 consecutive days.

I'd wager that LCB don't want to offer one long term, so have resisted introducing one, less they get a backlash for later withdrawing it.

To flip the accusation on its head, isn't it telling that First (a company not without its own problems right now) hasn't raised their prices? Do they not think people would pay more for its product?

Having a competitor stroll in and claim higher fares would be the perfect excuse for most to play the "operational costs" and "rising fuel costs" cards and lift their fares to match.

Lothian have watched First put up a fight several times before in Edinburgh, and then walk away. They also picked up the pieces when First ran from East Lothian and appear to making a success of it. They also watched on as First ran from the borders and WCM seem to be making it work.

I would guess their long game (assuming they want First gone to have the area to themselves) isn't to price First off the road. Just simply wait it out til they follow the recipe they've followed so many times before.

Time will tell if any of us are right, and more importantly, if the strategy Lothian is following will work.

Worse case scenario they have a fleet of mostly Euro 5 and 6 vehicles that can be found homes in the main fleet that just so happen to have Lothian standard rather than bespoke subsidiary interiors.

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The issue here is that you're assuming everyone works a 5 day week 9-5 hours and doesn't leave the house at weekends. This is perhaps most relevant to those under 30 however many people work a 5 day week (some even do more as they'll have a part time evening/weekend job), go shopping Saturday morning and then go out for drinks Saturday evening, statistics show that the number of young people with a car are declining with more under 30s opting for alternatives (cycling & Public transport) for them a weekly 7 day ticket offers far better value and ease of use. Simple fact is many (arguably a majority) of people travels more than 5 days a week by bus, even if that includes days where they're not working.

We all know Lothian are doing all they can to hide/mask LCB losses and the upcoming cuts (Press release sings about the glories X38 as if it's scripture, however there's no mention in the cuts for Knightsbridge, 281 being axed or the 275 halved). If they introduced a weekly ticket they'd probably not be able to competitively price it without loosing revenue. As for your comment about First, i'm not sure what planet you're on but why would a company under stiff competition raise it's fares - regardless of what the other company charge, there's just no logic in your statement.

Again the logic is flawed, Borders only really has two key routes (X62 & X95), compete with those and the whole operation is in trouble. Part of the reason for the success with ECB is because Lothian cut it's city services, so the ECB services get more city passengers thus more revenue. First were always weak in the Borders and East Lothian and had mad a loss for years, so when management were told to downsize it was to be expected those would get the chop first. The difference with West Lothian is that it's profitable, has signs of growth and is an asset to the company rather than a burden. The issue is you're looking at how First have reacted in the past (years ago) rather than how they're acting now. Different management, different times, different situations, different attitudes, different end result and so on....

I agree Lothian have the better spec vehicles internally, however i highly doubt boring old Joe from Bathgate cares if the bus has a pink or maroon interior, nor does he care if the grab rails on those Ex-Fastrack B7RLEs have logos from 'a n other' company as a certain fanboy would say. Back to the weekly tickets, the fact that certain journeys on the 25 still require deckers surely speaks volumes... As i say, passengers don't care what colour a bus is, so long as it gets them from A to B on time, stress free and is value for money. Most people only notice things if they've changed or if they've went wrong.

On another note at least LCB does have one loyal user... It seems the 2009 BGT runner up rides the 287.

I’ve been watching this thread with some bemusement for quite a while now but thought it was time to put my two penneth in.

Everyone going on about ‘cuts’ needs to actually look at the numbers before they spout this nonsense. Yes the 281 will be cut, but is to be replaced by an improved X17. The EX1 was carrying fresh air, and there’s already a perfectly decent service for people travelling from Bathgate to Edinburgh with the X18.

So in total we have lost 2 routes with a PVR of 8, and the 275 curtailment will probably see the PVR of this reduced by about 2. So 10 buses lost in total. To counteract this, the new X38 is starting up, both the X27 and X28 are being doubled in frequency. And let’s not forget the rerouted X27 will pick up the lost section of the 275, or at least the majority of it. So the only ‘cut’ is the direct link between Whitburn and Edinburgh Park (very few passengers go the whole way on the 275, I know this as I drive it several times a week), and the direct link between Ladywell/Knightsbridge and Loganlea. Again, very few passengers. The majority of passengers travelling to West Calder, Addiewell and Loganlea board at Livingston Centre. So let’s not dress this up as some massive service cut, or that LCB is giving up. It quite simply isn’t.

I can understand the interest in this thread, but the constant anti-Lothian and anti-First sniping from certain members is childish and boring.

Is the x17 going up to every 15mins???

20 minutes I believe.

@Jordan Adam just want to answer some the points here as I think my points have been misinterpreted... I will caveat that I honestly don't care who wins in West Lothian so I'm not trying to start an argument! Its an interesting scenario that I am intrigued as are many to see how it's going to play out.

Jordan Adam said:

The issue here is that you're assuming everyone works a 5 day week 9-5 hours and doesn't leave the house at weekends. This is perhaps most relevant to those under 30 however many people work a 5 day week (some even do more as they'll have a part time evening/weekend job), go shopping Saturday morning and then go out for drinks Saturday evening, statistics show that the number of young people with a car are declining with more under 30s opting for alternatives (cycling & Public transport) for them a weekly 7 day ticket offers far better value and ease of use. Simple fact is many (arguably a majority) of people travels more than 5 days a week by bus, even if that includes days where they're not working.

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I didn't assume that - I know you will get different camps of people with different requirements hence I caveated my statement from the word go. I simply don't think it appeals to the majority of users and I am suggesting its perhaps LCBs view and thus explains their stance. If we had £1 for everytime it was brought up in this thread without a counter theory being offered, we'd be flush.

Jordan Adam said:

As for your comment about First, i'm not sure what planet you're on but why would a company under stiff competition raise it's fares - regardless of what the other company charge, there's just no logic in your statement.

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If I ran a company charging x and company b else came along and successfully charged y, and I was focussed on maximising profit, the first question I'd be asking would be why we aren't charging y as well. I'd bank that I'm not going to lose customers to company b if my product is equal or superior.

Jordan Adam said:

Again the logic is flawed, Borders only really has two key routes (X62 & X95), compete with those and the whole operation is in trouble.

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I wasn't talking about competing with it. First quit, saying it wasn't sustainable. WCM has come in, improved the fleet, and continued the operation.

Edit - It's since become clear it wasn't cut and dry as I thought so you can ignore this point.

Jordan Adam said:

Part of the reason for the success with ECB is because Lothian cut it's city services, so the ECB services get more city passengers thus more revenue .... The issue is you're looking at how First have reacted in the past (years ago) rather than how they're acting now. Different management, different times, different situations, different attitudes, different end result and so on....

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I don't disagree massively here - however the only city cuts that affected ECB load that I can think of was the truncation of the X15 - affecting a tiny proportion ECB network. Again like WCM, ECB has transformed the quality of fleet (which costs money) and seem to making something First said was unsustainable work very well. Its largely semantics. I am just pointing to First long and public track record of "when the going gets tough, First get going" - the same track record that LCB were, and perhaps are still banking on.

Jordan Adam said:

I agree Lothian have the better spec vehicles internally, however i highly doubt boring old Joe from Bathgate cares if the bus has a pink or maroon interior, nor does he care if the grab rails on those Ex-Fastrack B7RLEs have logos from 'a n other' company as a certain fanboy would say.

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I agree completely, my point was that Lothian actually haven't actually got that much to lose in this. If they folded LCB the stock could easily be used elsewhere, they'd presumedly transfer the drivers they didn't lose locally to City duties, and they'd have a depot they don't appear to have invested too much into to dispose of. All part of their maths I'm sure.

At the risk of repeating myself, its an interesting battle. I can see it going either way and I agree with other posters that I wouldn't be surprised if it takes quite a while for either party to blink. Giving us plenty of time for monster threads like this one(!)

First leaving the Borders isn't really a parallel here though. You have some very thin territory and a couple of what were strong routes that did get investment. However, the railway did have quite an impact on the X95. In the end, it made sense for one to sell to the other and so get the synergies in the area.

mb88 said:

I can understand the interest in this thread, but the constant anti-Lothian and anti-First sniping from certain members is childish and boring.

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Absolutely. This thread (and arguably the Transdev/Connexxions thread) are the worst examples of tribalism on this board. We should be able to have civil debate that is fair and based on facts and relevant, recent information.

TheGrandWazoo said:

First leaving the Borders isn't really a parallel here though. You have some very thin territory and a couple of what were strong routes that did get investment. However, the railway did have quite an impact on the X95. In the end, it made sense for one to sell to the other and so get the synergies in the area.

Absolutely. This thread (and arguably the Transdev/Connexxions thread) are the worst examples of tribalism on this board. We should be able to have civil debate that is fair and based on facts and relevant, recent information.

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Wasn't aware First already had a competitor in Borders - makes sense.

Agree completely. It's definitely an eye roll thread at points this one, happy to try to continue civil debate with like-minded people!

scosutsut said:

Wasn't aware First already had a competitor in Borders - makes sense.

Agree completely. It's definitely an eye roll thread at points this one, happy to try to continue civil debate with like-minded people!

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Wasn't really a competitor. First lost most of the tendered work during the mid 2000s so had incrementally closed all the depots except Gala. The work was lost to McEwans, Buskers and Munros. Eventually, they got a little bit back but Perrymans expanded from their Berwick area base into the Borders so they had a fair network, and then got a few more of First's tenders.

I mean we’ve called out Lothian for doing many silly things adding 1 missing change every few days is neither helpful or useful. Not sure what’s going on here.

scosutsut said:

I've got to be honest. I fail to understand the importance of full weekly tickets. Is it truly because they offer 7 days travel or is it more down to cost and network coverage at this point?

Students generally travel a route 5 days a week. Workers generally travel a route 5 days a week. Bus Pass holders don't need tickets. I can't think of that many people that would want and actively use the ability to get the bus for 7 consecutive days.

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Jordan has explain why 7 tickets are useful, I bet he's just as complex as i'm at your points. I know plenty of people who uses the bus all week long. I take it if you had a car your only going to use it for 5 days? no no your driven for five days I'll it sit for the other 2? backward logic, your going to use car / bus pass etc to the max

I do not believe Jordan nor anyone else was trying to start an argument with your good self, were just complex.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Now, does the fact that First Bus is up for divestment change that? Possibly. Will they sustain the losses? Could they do something similar to Plymouth and sell to Stagecoach and, in that instance, would Lothian follow Go Ahead's lead there and retreat; it's one thing taking on First but Stagecoach? It could well be that we're still having these conversations in a years' time. I don't see Lothian walking in that time. First might but equally, they may still feel that they have to keep up the fight. If in two years' time, it's stalemate with both firms losing money, that's a different scenario again.

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I think your right and we will be here in October 2020, with First and LCB still at it with each other, with no one able to make the killer blow to take full control. First doesnt have the money to make full effort and can only afford to steady the ship, While LCB continules is madness in West lothian and refuses to do anything that will grab the remaining passengers for itself.

mb88 said:

I’ve been watching this thread with some bemusement for quite a while now but thought it was time to put my two penneth in.

Everyone going on about ‘cuts’ needs to actually look at the numbers before they spout this nonsense. Yes the 281 will be cut, but is to be replaced by an improved X17. The EX1 was carrying fresh air, and there’s already a perfectly decent service for people travelling from Bathgate to Edinburgh with the X18.

So in total we have lost 2 routes with a PVR of 8, and the 275 curtailment will probably see the PVR of this reduced by about 2. So 10 buses lost in total. To counteract this, the new X38 is starting up, both the X27 and X28 are being doubled in frequency. And let’s not forget the rerouted X27 will pick up the lost section of the 275, or at least the majority of it. So the only ‘cut’ is the direct link between Whitburn and Edinburgh Park (very few passengers go the whole way on the 275, I know this as I drive it several times a week), and the direct link between Ladywell/Knightsbridge and Loganlea. Again, very few passengers. The majority of passengers travelling to West Calder, Addiewell and Loganlea board at Livingston Centre. So let’s not dress this up as some massive service cut, or that LCB is giving up. It quite simply isn’t.

I can understand the interest in this thread, but the constant anti-Lothian and anti-First sniping from certain members is childish and boring.

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So there still cuts:

Craigshills 6bph to 5bph. ( that only if the x17 is every 20mins)
Knightsbridge 4bph to 2bph.
Loganlea 4bph to 3bph. ( that only if the x17 is every 20mins)
Sky campus no longer served.
Ex1 gone.

I never saw anyone saying how whitburn was losing its buses from LCB, but there clearly is cuts across the network, help free up stock. I kept on asking the same Q, never get a proper response.
Again let's point out why people in Knightsbridge would use LCB? it goes via Craigshill making the travel time longer or there can jump on the First no26 and arrive at town centre quicker. What's happened? LCB now had to cut the route because the passengers have voted with their feet and went for quicker and ( in some case cheaper service) Its things like this which make people ask how on earth can LCB win this. LCB has mist the boat with X38 route First has more freq service and cheaper fares for the Winchburgh passengers.

TheGrandWazoo said:

Absolutely. This thread (and arguably the Transdev/Connexxions thread) are the worst examples of tribalism on this board. We should be able to have civil debate that is fair and based on facts and relevant, recent information.

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People don't like hearing the truth. I'm no fan of First, but bygum it's made difference in WL over the past few years and upped its game. Yet LCB continues to do weird things and it's highly disappointed us in so many areas and when ( we some of us who are not happy with either company ) start pointing out facts like people of Knightsbridge will not use the LCB routes to town centre, it's then we get told what alot of rubbish.... Its nice to be proven what was said was correct..

The people that travel on my bus between Knightsridge and the centre day in day out must be ghosts then.

mb88 said:

The people that travel on my bus between Knightsridge and the centre day in day out must be ghosts then.

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There clearly more passengers using the First service, because First are not cutting there's unlike LCB.

First are making cuts to its network, look at the 27, now down to Now every 20mins so LCB must be doing better in Craigshill. I did also highlight the fact No29 going but that was just swept away by the other side.

overthewater said:

I do not believe Jordan nor anyone else was trying to start an argument with your good self, were just complex.

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Yeah I know! All good!

overthewater said:

There clearly more passengers using the First service, because First are not cutting there's unlike LCB.

First are making cuts to its network, look at the 27, now down to Now every 20mins so LCB must be doing better in Craigshill. I did also highlight the fact No29 going but that was just swept away by the other side.

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Ok there may be cuts but they are very, very minor. Sadly the system in place at the moment allows any operator to start, vary or cut services as they see fit. And that’s just what companies do. It’s not good for passengers at all. But I think in this instance, the very small cuts LCB are making are more than made up for by the enhancements made elsewhere. At the end of the day, nowhere that currently has an LCB bus will not have one after the changes.

mb88 said:

At the end of the day, nowhere that currently has an LCB bus will not have one after the changes.

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What about people going to Kirkton Campus? Of course people were only going up there at certain times of the day, and the council HAD JUST scraped it's council route partly because of the 275. Again First still operate to the area.