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Borders Railway Extension: suggestions on how this should progress

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Just found the old thread had been closed (Maybe reopen and merge?)

This has just been on the BBC website:

Campaigners aiming to extend the Borders Railway to Carlisle have been told their goal is "moving closer".

The Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) was told by MSP Christine Grahame at its AGM that its case for extending the line to Cumbria was "rock solid".

Chairman Simon Walton urged supporters to "raise their game" to keep up pressure for the scheme.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-49984969
 
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A0wen

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"The Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) was told by MSP Christine Grahame at its AGM that its case for extending the line to Cumbria was "rock solid"."

I can only assume that Ms Grahame has a tenuous grasp on reality and precisely no experience in constructing a viable business case.
 

DarloRich

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The Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) was told by MSP Christine Grahame at its AGM that its case for extending the line to Cumbria was "rock solid".

Really?

I can only assume that Ms Grahame has a tenuous grasp on reality and precisely no experience in constructing a viable business case.

is the correct answer.
 

433N

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"The Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) was told by MSP Christine Grahame at its AGM that its case for extending the line to Cumbria was "rock solid"."

I can only assume that Ms Grahame has a tenuous grasp on reality and precisely no experience in constructing a viable business case.

As one of her 'constituents' and from first hand experience, I can confirm that this is correct and that you could perhaps end your sentence after the word 'reality'.

If you ever see the Scottish Parliament sitting, she is always at the front - I know not why nor where her influence comes from.

Of course, as a Borders MSP if she says that the case for extending the line to Cumbria is 'rock solid' it could be that she is a little biased.
 

tbtc

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Of course, as a Borders MSP if she says that the case for extending the line to Cumbria is 'rock solid' it could be that she is a little biased.

True - but "local political representative tells constituents what they want to hear, regardless of reality" is a less exciting story for the press to cover!

Mind you, if this "rock solid" scheme is indeed "moving closer" then surely there's no need for anyone to "raise their game to keep up pressure for the scheme", they can just sit back and wait for the guaranteed approval to be signed off (and to hell with Levenmouth/ Peterhead or any of the other infrastructure projects, like introducing electricity to Fife)

To put things into context, it's already an hour from Waverley to Tweedbank, versus an hour and a quarter from Waverley to Carlisle... and a train isn't going to cover the sixty miles from Tweedbank to Carlisle in much under an hour... so call it two hours from Waverley to Carlisle via Tweedbank... so it's not going to be much use for longer distance passengers (assuming that there are paths along the single line Borders route for additional trains)... the whole thing is just a nice nostalgia trip from people who want to go back to how they were generations ago... but I guess that maybe she knows her voters and they are happy with such stories.
 

433N

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Personally, I shudder at the thought of people from Hawick being able to mix with civilised society.

Keep them cut-off is what I say !

They won't mind since they all believe the Bill McLarenism that 'a day out of Hawick is a day wasted'.

Any rational person would believe the opposite to be true.
 

och aye

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As one of her 'constituents' and from first hand experience, I can confirm that this is correct and that you could perhaps end your sentence after the word 'reality'.

If you ever see the Scottish Parliament sitting, she is always at the front - I know not why nor where her influence comes from.

Of course, as a Borders MSP if she says that the case for extending the line to Cumbria is 'rock solid' it could be that she is a little biased.
As a constituent, perhaps you could write to her or go to one of her surgeries and find out why she says the case is 'rock solid' in her words. Then again, I suspect you have better things to do with your time than do that. :lol:
 

433N

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As a constituent, perhaps you could write to her or go to one of her surgeries and find out why she says the case is 'rock solid' in her words. Then again, I suspect you have better things to do with your time than do that. :lol:

I talked to her once and I have no intention of repeating that experience, thank you very much.

Besides she runs her surgeries in Tescos ... I doubt she'll want disturbing whilst she's doing her shopping.
 

och aye

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I talked to her once and I have no intention of repeating that experience, thank you very much.

Besides she runs her surgeries in Tescos ... I doubt she'll want disturbing whilst she's doing her shopping.
I've had friends of mine using slightly more colourful language to describe their interactions with her. :lol:
 

DelW

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Nothing is impossible to politicians of any stamp, who scent the possibility of spending other people's money to benefit their constituents.

If the cost of building and operating the extension had to come out of the pockets of her constituents alone (or even of Scottish taxpayers alone), I suspect there would be much less enthusiasm for the project.
 
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If the cost of building and operating the extension had to come out of the pockets of her constituents alone (or even of Scottish taxpayers alone), I suspect there would be much less enthusiasm for the project.

Indeed. Given a population of 14,000 in Hawick (at the last census) and assuming a cost of £1-200m (as a very rough guess) it would cost at least £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Hawick to extend the railway there. How many would rather just be given the cash?
 

deltic08

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To put things into context, it's already an hour from Waverley to Tweedbank, versus an hour and a quarter from Waverley to Carlisle... and a train isn't going to cover the sixty miles from Tweedbank to Carlisle in much under an hour... so call it two hours from Waverley to Carlisle via Tweedbank... so it's not going to be much use for longer distance passengers (assuming that there are paths along the single line Borders route for additional trains)... the whole thing is just a nice nostalgia trip from people who want to go back to how they were generations ago... but I guess that maybe she knows her voters and they are happy with such stories.
Trains between Carlisle and Edinburgh would probably not stop between Gala and Edinburgh reducing journey time to 40-45minutes. That leaves Tweedbank possibly, definitely Melrose, Newton St Boswells, Hawick, Newcastleton and possibly one other railhead further south, possibly in England. To complete 60 miles with 6 stop in 60 minutes needs a lot of work either side of Riccarton Junction to straighten the route for 90mph running. This could then produce a sub 2 hour journey between both cities via the Borders route.
I would use it regardless of time taken as long as the trains are comfortable for a journey of that length.
 

class26

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Indeed. Given a population of 14,000 in Hawick (at the last census) and assuming a cost of £1-200m (as a very rough guess) it would cost at least £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Hawick to extend the railway there. How many would rather just be given the cash?

Maybe they would rather have 10k but once its gone its gone whereas the line will be there indefinitely benefiting future generations, far more than todays 14,000 population and could encourage more to live in the area.
 

Brissle Girl

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Part of any business case will be economic regeneration of the region. Has the existing line triggered any such regeneration to date? Eg new industry, housing, increased takings in local hotels/restaurants?
 

Bald Rick

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Indeed. Given a population of 14,000 in Hawick (at the last census) and assuming a cost of £1-200m (as a very rough guess) it would cost at least £10,000 for every man, woman and child in Hawick to extend the railway there. How many would rather just be given the cash?

Getting to Hawick wouldn’t cost less than £3-400m.

Trains between Carlisle and Edinburgh would probably not stop between Gala and Edinburgh reducing journey time to 40-45minutes.

I suspect they would have to stop, to make the timetable work with the single line sections.
 

paul1609

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Getting to Hawick wouldn’t cost less than £3-400m.
Having walked along the line of the route from St Boswells to Tweedbank I'd say that even that might be conservative.


I suspect they would have to stop, to make the timetable work with the single line sections.
I reckon there's considerable timesaving to be had at the Edinburgh End of the current line sorting out the junction with the ECML etc. Shawfair currently takes 15 mins outbound for 5.6 miles
 
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As another constituent of Ms Grahame's I would have to say that she is a very effective constituency MSP. It's also necessary to look at the politics which lurk behind her statement at the CBR AGM. She would have been well aware of this recent report link to Border Telegraph report. Safe in the knowledge that the failure to extend to Carlisle can be blamed on Westminster and the numpty local tory MP John Lamont, Ms Grahame is giving the scheme enthusiastic backing. Lamont, meanwhile, is also enthusiastically backing it, despite having been opposed to building Edinburgh - Tweedbank.

It's also been reported locally (sorry, I don't have a link) that CBR are campaigning for electrification of the existing line. They also want about a mile of double track installed through Eskbank, which would need a second platform (presumably double between Esk and Hardengreen viaducts) and a bay platform at Gorebridge. Together with the planned improvements between Portobello and Niddrie South junctions they say this would allow a half-hourly all stations stopper from Gorebridge taking 24 mins and a half hourly Tweedbank service stopping at Gala, Stow, Gorebridge and Newcraighall taking 43 minutes.
 

deltic08

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Getting to Hawick wouldn’t cost less than £3-400m.
From which side?
I reckon there's considerable timesaving to be had at the Edinburgh End of the current line sorting out the junction with the ECML etc. Shawfair currently takes 15 mins outbound for 5.6 miles
And the ridiculously sharp curve where the Borders line leaves the Millerhill line at Newtonhall. There was plenty of room for a faster, more sweeping curve when built. Didn't anybody consider future proofing this for non-stopping trains? Obviously not.
 

Polarbear

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Apologies if already posted elsewhere, but if the Borders line is extended south of Tweedbank, how will it actually get through Hawick? My recollection is that a viaduct was originally involved, which is no longer there. Also, is the site of the former station still available?
 

tbtc

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Trains between Carlisle and Edinburgh would probably not stop between Gala and Edinburgh reducing journey time to 40-45minutes. That leaves Tweedbank possibly, definitely Melrose, Newton St Boswells, Hawick, Newcastleton and possibly one other railhead further south, possibly in England. To complete 60 miles with 6 stop in 60 minutes needs a lot of work either side of Riccarton Junction to straighten the route for 90mph running. This could then produce a sub 2 hour journey between both cities via the Borders route.
I would use it regardless of time taken as long as the trains are comfortable for a journey of that length.

I'm not surprised that you would be in favour of a scheme like this... but you'd have to throw large sums of money at speeding up the line north of Tweedbank (and fully double tracking it... I know that the reaction will be "but it should have been future-proofed in the first place", which is all well and good, but it wasn't built double track, so any scheme needs to factor that in)...

I could see the point of extending to Hawick one day in the distant future but the population between Hawick and Carlisle is tiny - it's a bit empty part of the country unsuited to mass transportation. As I said, I'm not surprised that you're in favour.
 

Bald Rick

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Apologies if already posted elsewhere, but if the Borders line is extended south of Tweedbank, how will it actually get through Hawick? My recollection is that a viaduct was originally involved, which is no longer there. Also, is the site of the former station still available?

Good question. There’s also the not insignificant issue of getting out of Tweedbank.
 
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... My recollection is that a viaduct was originally involved, which is no longer there. Also, is the site of the former station still available?

The former station was (partly) on the viaduct. Most of the rest of the site, and the original 1849 station, is underneath the swimming pool and leisure centre. There's plenty of room to construct an appropriately sized terminus slightly short of the original site, which is all that's likely to be needed, though as pointed out above the real difficulties with extending to Hawick are around Melrose.
 

Polarbear

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The former station was (partly) on the viaduct. Most of the rest of the site, and the original 1849 station, is underneath the swimming pool and leisure centre. There's plenty of room to construct an appropriately sized terminus slightly short of the original site, which is all that's likely to be needed, though as pointed out above the real difficulties with extending to Hawick are around Melrose.

Thanks for the info. As it happens, I was driving down the A7 on Saturday (12 Oct) and was wondering if/how the line could realistically be rebuilt. Having done a little more research, I understand that the track bed is intact to the north of Hawick & finishes just before the leisure centre.

As you say though, the line at Melrose has been built upon & getting beyond Hawick will be "challenging" as well as pretty expensive.
 

laseandre

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As one of her 'constituents' and from first hand experience, I can confirm that this is correct and that you could perhaps end your sentence after the word 'reality'.

If you ever see the Scottish Parliament sitting, she is always at the front - I know not why nor where her influence comes from.

Of course, as a Borders MSP if she says that the case for extending the line to Cumbria is 'rock solid' it could be that she is a little biased.
She's nearly always at the front because the other members of Parliament voted for her to be one of the two Deputy Presiding Officers - clearly the other 128 MSPs have some kind of trust in her, as do the rest of her constituents who keep voting her in as their local MSP...

It's not unknown for politicians to advance their local constituency interests, and in this case, good on her. She's been a stalwart part of the campaign to reopen the line until now, and extending it is also a good plan to reduce carbon emissions and traffic further into the Borders.
 

Bald Rick

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... extending it is also a good plan to reduce carbon emissions and traffic further into the Borders.

I would bet a significant sum that an extension, even to Hawick, would be net worse for carbon emissions once you take into account the carbon cost of construction.

Particularly given that future assessment of carbon reduction from modal shift from road must now assume the gradual electrification of road transport. (Doing Mods job: this is not the place for discussion on electrification of road transport, there are other threads for that, use them).


In which case - it would have no economic case, no environmental case, no financial case, no strategic case ... it would be a brave politician who votes for it.
 

paul1609

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I would bet a significant sum that an extension, even to Hawick, would be net worse for carbon emissions once you take into account the carbon cost of construction.

Particularly given that future assessment of carbon reduction from modal shift from road must now assume the gradual electrification of road transport. (Doing Mods job: this is not the place for discussion on electrification of road transport, there are other threads for that, use them).


In which case - it would have no economic case, no environmental case, no financial case, no strategic case ... it would be a brave politician who votes for it.
I rather think that rail with propulsion typically provided by a 1970s design Perkins Engine (many from observation of the exhaust colour poorly maintained) probably has a negative environmental case against a Euro 6 powered coach/ bus even before road vehicles abandon Diesel.
 

hwl

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I rather think that rail with propulsion typically provided by a 1970s design Perkins Engine (many from observation of the exhaust colour poorly maintained) probably has a negative environmental case against a Euro 6 powered coach/ bus even before road vehicles abandon Diesel.
The quantity of NOx and PMs produced in the largely open country side along the route won't make difference to local air quality. What is burnt in local fire places will!
EuroVI engines - there isn't enough heat above the critical temperature in the exhaust to make SCR work at lower engine powers so performance will be less clean than you would expect.
Most Sprinters have Cummins engines the design originating from 1967 with a few 158s having a "Perkins" engine that is actually a Rolls Royce Diesel (Shewesbury) design. The MTU (Mercedes) engine in the Turbostars and CAF DMUs actually dates back to 1968 but is available as EuroVI road engine as well as a rail stage IIIB/V engine.
 

boabt

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Ms Grahame told the meeting in Edinburgh: "You will get it through to Hawick.
"Its success will make it rock solid that it will be extended."

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...g-borders-railway-christine-grahame-1-5020083

Subtly different from what is claimed below...

"The Campaign for Borders Rail (CBR) was told by MSP Christine Grahame at its AGM that its case for extending the line to Cumbria was "rock solid"."

I can only assume that Ms Grahame has a tenuous grasp on reality and precisely no experience in constructing a viable business case.
 
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