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Northern Pacer Withdrawals - Info?

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OrangeJuice

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They do get a run out now and then. Saw 21 at Middlesbrough this morning around 0730. Number 66 has not run since it was stored some weeks ago. And 46 seems to be back out in circulation. Spotted at Doncaster last week.

Are the warm stored pacers being run occasionally so they're still usable rather than kept ready but having the engines turned on and moved about the depot or whatever is required?

Or are they still needed to prevent short forms?
 
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Killingworth

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We'd hoped to be rid of Pacers on the Hope Valley line by now. Good job it was wet enough to deter most walkers today when a leaky Pacer was rolled out. The steamed up 12.14 from 2c in Sheffield was still very well filled.

It's due to pricing ! It's often less than half the price to take the stopping Northern service than the competing fast TPE or East Midlands between Sheffield and Manchester. They're also full, but those companies are taking the revenue advantage. Northern's Pacers are so overloaded the guards can't move up the train so fare collection or checking can't take place. It's little better with a 150 or 156. Of course passenger numbers in the annual statistics won't record the number who travel without tickets.

Of course logic would say hitch up one of those stored Pacers to make a double unit with two guards during the peak Saturday period and soak up more of the demand - or put up the long distance fares so local users for the stops in the Hope Valley can get aboard their trains.

upload_2019-9-28_23-44-11.png
 

simon7929

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The warm stored pacers need a run out every 28 days otherwise they require an exam. They tend to just run around the North East for the day then return to Heaton on the evening.
 

BR 45111

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We'd hoped to be rid of Pacers on the Hope Valley line by now. Good job it was wet enough to deter most walkers today when a leaky Pacer was rolled out. The steamed up 12.14 from 2c in Sheffield was still very well filled.

It's due to pricing ! It's often less than half the price to take the stopping Northern service than the competing fast TPE or East Midlands between Sheffield and Manchester. They're also full, but those companies are taking the revenue advantage. Northern's Pacers are so overloaded the guards can't move up the train so fare collection or checking can't take place. It's little better with a 150 or 156. Of course passenger numbers in the annual statistics won't record the number who travel without tickets.

Of course logic would say hitch up one of those stored Pacers to make a double unit with two guards during the peak Saturday period and soak up more of the demand - or put up the long distance fares so local users for the stops in the Hope Valley can get aboard their trains.

View attachment 68888
There seems to be no pattern to Northern services out of Sheffield at the moment , both the 1415 and 1545 departures on the Piccadilly all stations on Friday was a 142 .
A few weeks ago the late evening and return Piccadilly- Sheffield services were 142x2 then last week a single 142 , 156 and 142 combo and a 150 and 142 combo all on same evening. The station has no 142 stabled or a few .
 

Killingworth

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There seems to be no pattern to Northern services out of Sheffield at the moment , both the 1415 and 1545 departures on the Piccadilly all stations on Friday was a 142 .
A few weeks ago the late evening and return Piccadilly- Sheffield services were 142x2 then last week a single 142 , 156 and 142 combo and a 150 and 142 combo all on same evening. The station has no 142 stabled or a few .

This morning the 8.20 and 9.21 departures from Sheffield for Piccadilly didn't! No shortage of Pacers, shortage of west side drivers. Later we've had a 150/2 and steamed up Pacer 142055. Fortunately most walkers will have stayed at home today.
 

Ken H

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Are any Northern units on fixed mileage leases? if so Northern may be saving mileage on those by running pacers instead.
 

xotGD

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Don't know if this is in any way accurate or totally wrong, but someone told me today that some Pacers will be exported to Bulgaria.
 

geoffk

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I've seen a message, apparently from Northern management (not known how recent) which includes the statement -
"The additional routes that will retain Pacers for a few weeks into 2020 are:
Clitheroe/Blackburn – Rochdale (via Bolton and Manchester Victoria)
Manchester Piccadilly – Rose Hill/Marple/New Mills/Chinley
Manchester Piccadilly – Sheffield (a handful of return trips)

I thought it was 144s which were staying but these three routes are Manchester-based and so only have 142s. It seems that there are additional routes keeping 144s.
 

61653 HTAFC

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That's surprising, given all the issues Northern have had with training crews on different units. Though I guess a conversion course from 142-144 is fairly straightforward.
 

Robertj21a

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I've seen a message, apparently from Northern management (not known how recent) which includes the statement -
"The additional routes that will retain Pacers for a few weeks into 2020 are:
Clitheroe/Blackburn – Rochdale (via Bolton and Manchester Victoria)
Manchester Piccadilly – Rose Hill/Marple/New Mills/Chinley
Manchester Piccadilly – Sheffield (a handful of return trips)

I thought it was 144s which were staying but these three routes are Manchester-based and so only have 142s. It seems that there are additional routes keeping 144s.

Aren't they the routes where you can expect to usually find 142s working every day at present ? - it's no doubt easier to just leave them on the same routes until newer stock enables more cascades.
 

delt1c

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Don't know if this is in any way accurate or totally wrong, but someone told me today that some Pacers will be exported to Bulgaria.
How are passengers expected to board and alight?Bulgaria has mainly low platforms which require steps
 

Paul’s

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Just read that northern pacers will be around the Great Manchester rail network into 2020.
The head line was in the Manchester evening news.

Why Pacers WON'T be leaving Greater Manchester in the new year after all - but Northern Rail might be.

Could this happen , after the class 150, was supposed to be replacing them.
 

Chris217

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It was always difficult to believe that
all Pacers would be eradicated by 31st Dec 2019 no matter which operator used them.
 

507021

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Just read that northern pacers will be around the Great Manchester rail network into 2020.
The head line was in the Manchester evening news.

Why Pacers WON'T be leaving Greater Manchester in the new year after all - but Northern Rail might be.

Could this happen , after the class 150, was supposed to be replacing them.

Northern Rail haven't been in Greater Manchester since April 2016. :lol:
 

Paul’s

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Does it not run from Manchester Piccadilly to Rose Hill, and Manchester Piccadilly to Chester , that is within the Greater Manchester rail network. Sorry I still see then operating under northern.
 

Bertie the bus

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Could this happen , after the class 150, was supposed to be replacing them.
Yes it could happen and some of us who have been observing what has been going on have suspected it would happen for a good few weeks.

The MEN article is here:
https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...cers-wont-leaving-greater-manchester-17064009
with the relevant bit:
But its latest admission means Pacers will also continue to serve three routes crossing Greater Manchester, running from Piccadilly to Sheffield, Clitheroe and Blackburn to Rochdale via Bolton and Victoria , and from Piccadilly to New Mills, due to a delay in new stock arriving.
 

yorksrob

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Having seen the fanfare around the first 142 withdrawal, my question to Northern is:

Why was it not a Merseyrail abomination ?
 

Eccles1983

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Having seen the fanfare around the first 142 withdrawal, my question to Northern is:

Why was it not a Merseyrail abomination ?


The bits inside of the train are of absolute zero relevance to it's withdrawal.

It's the amount of work/life left underneath it that will decide what stays and goes. Some are literally on their last bolt and wheels. Some are still in decent enough order to pass examinations.
 

yorksrob

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The bits inside of the train are of absolute zero relevance to it's withdrawal.

It's the amount of work/life left underneath it that will decide what stays and goes. Some are literally on their last bolt and wheels. Some are still in decent enough order to pass examinations.

Understandable I suppose, but not very passenger focussed !
 

palmersears

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Understandable I suppose, but not very passenger focussed !
On the contrary, surely by withdrawing the most mechanically battered ones they're ensuring the remaining fleet can keep going with fewer periods of downtime, in theory reducing cancellations and short forms as a result, which the travelling public are most concerned about?
 

yorksrob

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On the contrary, surely by withdrawing the most mechanically battered ones they're ensuring the remaining fleet can keep going with fewer periods of downtime, in theory reducing cancellations and short forms as a result, which the travelling public are most concerned about?

I'm not so sure. They all tend to rattle on, to a lesser or greater extent, so get rod of the ones that are most diabolical for the passenger first.
 

156420

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I'm not so sure. They all tend to rattle on, to a lesser or greater extent, so get rod of the ones that are most diabolical for the passenger first.

Yeah, it’s not like Exam Tolerance, Classified Maintenance/Overhaul dates make any difference to the withdrawal dates!
 

Killingworth

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The latest information from Northern was sent to Stakeholders this evening. I don't think it's top secret, more the reverse. The following from David Brown's letter;

"The event was also a preview of the next wave of new trains entering service on our Leeds – Chester service (from 21 October).

By next Monday we will have 29 of our 101 new trains in service for customers – and a further 40 in the country, undergoing testing or being used for driver training. We will be introducing more new trains onto more new routes over the coming months and by the end of 2019, we expect to have more than 50 new trains carrying customers.

The introduction of new trains meant we were able to retire the first Pacer train in August, and as more new trains enter service, we can get on with the internal cascade of various types of trains and then retire more Pacers. We expect the majority of Pacers to be retired from service by the end of 2019. However, as a result of delays in the delivery of our new trains from manufacturer CAF, we have sought approval for a small number of Pacers to operate on a handful of routes in South/West Yorkshire and the North West for a few weeks into 2020.

This plan will help Northern ensure we maximise capacity for our customers. Other UK train operators are looking to retain some older trains into 2020, again because of delays in the delivery of their new trains. On routes where we plan to use Pacers, we will deliver enhanced customer communications to help customers with special assistance needs and have robust customer service processes in place to ensure customers will be able to get where they need to be.

Overall, we plan to operate the majority of our new trains by the end of 2019, retire the majority of Pacers by the end of 2019, and during the first half of 2020 the introduction of the final new trains will mean we can retire all the Pacers.

Finally, you may have seen recent speculation in the media about Northern. As you will be aware, it is on record that the Northern franchise has faced several material and unprecedented challenges in the last couple of years – many of which have been outside the direct control of Northern. The most significant of these are the ongoing, late delivery of major infrastructure upgrades. These have obviously had a significant effect on the franchise plan agreed with government back in 2015.

Despite this, we are delivering on our franchise commitments including over 2,000 new services per week and delivering new trains and better stations worth £600m. We’re also delivering our 101 new trains – twice the number we were asked to provide.
"
 
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