• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

notlob.divad

Established Member
Joined
19 Jan 2016
Messages
1,609
Strange door layout with more doors in the middle carriages, and only 1 set in the outer ones, I wonder how that will impact on passenger flows on what are urban units?
The 'enthusiast' (not sure if it has been confirmed) theory of this is: by having the single middle door in the end carriages, an 8 carriage set will have all of their doors aligned with the existing 6 car platforms, without having to make major platform extensions or adjust signalling positions etc.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,870
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The 'enthusiast' (not sure if it has been confirmed) theory of this is: by having the single middle door in the end carriages, an 8 carriage set will have all of their doors aligned with the existing 6 car platforms, without having to make major platform extensions or adjust signalling positions etc.

Pretty sure that has been confirmed as the reason.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Strange door layout with more doors in the middle carriages, and only 1 set in the outer ones, I wonder how that will impact on passenger flows on what are urban units?
Remember that these are walk-through trains, so the nearest door to you may not actually be in the same carriage.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,851
The 'enthusiast' (not sure if it has been confirmed) theory of this is: by having the single middle door in the end carriages, an 8 carriage set will have all of their doors aligned with the existing 6 car platforms, without having to make major platform extensions or adjust signalling positions etc.

That would make sense I guess, but then the UK Stadlers do seem to have unusual door layouts when compared to the other manufacturers!

Remember that these are walk-through trains, so the nearest door to you may not actually be in the same carriage.

It's still seems an uneven distribution of doors along the train though.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,870
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
That would make sense I guess, but then the UK Stadlers do seem to have unusual door layouts when compared to the other manufacturers!

That's a Stadler thing generally. Most manufacturers design a coach, typically two types, one with a cab and one without, then make up any length of train from that, and then shove seats, toilets etc inside as per customer spec, blanking out windows if necessary.

Stadler, on the other hand, are more innovative, and design the whole train, door positions included, based on what is intended to go inside, from modular components (i.e. in any given "bay" you can put a door, a window or a blank panel).
 

73001

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2010
Messages
397
Location
Liverpool
So what's gonna happen during rush hour? Will 2 train sets be coupled together?
The general idea is that they'll mostly run singly as there is increased capacity, especially with standees. As far as I'm aware they could run in 2s but at the minute there are some issues with signal sighting etc if they did.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,870
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The general idea is that they'll mostly run singly as there is increased capacity, especially with standees. As far as I'm aware they could run in 2s but at the minute there are some issues with signal sighting etc if they did.

The whole reason for the door layout is that they can run as 8-car sets on 6-car platforms. However as you say there are presently some issues, e.g. that it won't be possible to reverse one at Liverpool Central due to signal positions (not sighting), though I think they fit the reversing siding, which after many years of disuse is back in use for Ormskirk (and possibly Kirkby?) trains.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
The general idea is that they'll mostly run singly as there is increased capacity, especially with standees. As far as I'm aware they could run in 2s but at the minute there are some issues with signal sighting etc if they did.

Looking it up, they seem to have 10 seats less than the 507s, so I presume the capacity increase is in standing room?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,870
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Looking it up, they seem to have 10 seats less than the 507s, so I presume the capacity increase is in standing room?

I'd expect so as the seating is "class 700 style" i.e. with a very wide aisle to facilitate standing and fast loading/unloading.

Ironically this is the kind of layout the Class 50x middle coaches had pre-refurb, though the reason for it, if I recall, was to allow people to have prams etc by their seat.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
I'd expect so as the seating is "class 700 style" i.e. with a very wide aisle to facilitate standing and fast loading/unloading.

Ironically this is the kind of layout the Class 50x middle coaches had pre-refurb, though the reason for it, if I recall, was to allow people to have prams etc by their seat.

I notice there are also slightly fewer units than the 50x, so no service increase either
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
Indeed not. I had, in a parallel universe, hoped for 4x20m units (no doubling up) and an increase in base frequency to 6tph on each branch.

I for one thought the new units were not only meant to increase capacity (I assumed seating wise let alone standing), but that their introduction was going in tandem with service improvements. I didn't read that but I assumed that and it's rather disappointing that's not what's happening at the moment.
 

James James

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2018
Messages
426
Someone explained on Twitter that it simply takes a while for the door to be made as it's quite a complex door and as it's not essential for testing, they've put the temporary one in place rather than wait.
There's supposed to be some automatic bridging system between units for emergency evacuations and the like, and presumably part of that will have to live in the door?
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
It's indeed curious, although the units are slightly longer than those they are replacing and will have somewhat higher capacity, the total number of trains ordered is quite substantially lower than the number being replaced - presumably they're expecting efficiency gains but enough to allow 7 fewer units to be used with a fleet size of 52 seems a bit on the ambitious side. Are there any doubled-up 6-car services that will be run as singular 4-car services to make up for the shortfall? There is also a huge option to this order, bigger than the initial fleet itself, I can't really see how this could ever possibly be used.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
It's indeed curious, although the units are slightly longer than those they are replacing and will have somewhat higher capacity, the total number of trains ordered is quite substantially lower than the number being replaced - presumably they're expecting efficiency gains but enough to allow 7 fewer units to be used with a fleet size of 52 seems a bit on the ambitious side. Are there any doubled-up 6-car services that will be run as singular 4-car services to make up for the shortfall? There is also a huge option to this order, bigger than the initial fleet itself, I can't really see how this could ever possibly be used.

112 units would definitely be a significant improvement ;)
 

M28361M

Member
Joined
15 May 2014
Messages
539
Location
Liverpool
I think they fit the reversing siding, which after many years of disuse is back in use for Ormskirk (and possibly Kirkby?) trains.

The reversing siding was never "disused" as such - prior to the timetable changes for Maghull North there were still two or three trains every weekday in the morning and evening peak which were booked to reverse in the siding and usually did so. Also used by the regular stock swap workings between Birkenhead North and Kirkdale depots.

It is certainly now being used much more - by (almost?) all Ormskirk trains during Monday to Saturday daytimes, but not in the evenings or Sundays, when the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines interwork as they have done for many years.

I for one thought the new units were not only meant to increase capacity (I assumed seating wise let alone standing), but that their introduction was going in tandem with service improvements. I didn't read that but I assumed that and it's rather disappointing that's not what's happening at the moment.

You will save one or two units from journey time reductions. For example, the initial publicity I think said 9 minutes could be shaved off Liverpool-Southport times. These currently have roughly 20 minutes turnaround time at Southport - if you reduce this, you potentially free up a unit for use elsewhere. Presumably there is also an assumption that availability will be better with brand new trains, allowing the new trains to be utilised more intensively.

However, it does seem that the main capacity increase is from packing more standing passengers in at busy times. For a metro-style operation, this is to an extent understandable, but judging by the regular complaints on Twitter about crowded trains (especially at the moment, as the leaf-fall timetable on the Chester line requires more units, so other lines are being short-formed) this will not be popular.

I appreciate that Merseytravel are a bit strapped for cash, but it's a shame to see a lack of ambition in this area - a growth build is really needed to provide capacity not just now, but for the next few decades. I would have thought that if any of the regularly-discussed extensions (Skelmersdale, Helsby, Wrexham, etc) are to be feasible, that option for extra units will need to be taken up. It would also be nice to have a bit of spare capacity to cater for special events (and avoid a repeat of the embarrassing Giants timetable from last year).

By the way, according to a news item on the Liverpool City Region website, the first trains are now expected to arrive in the UK in December:
Most of the testing is being undertaken at an established railway testing centre in Wildenrath to minimise the need for testing and any associated disruption on the Merseyrail network itself.

The test track focus is on train on-track performance which requires the operational and mechanical elements of the train to be fully functional, while some on-board cosmetic elements are yet to be completed.

The first unit should arrive in the UK in December and will be stabled at Kirkdale as a base for further testing and to allow for driver training. The trains will begin to be rolled out into passenger service from 2020.
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
I appreciate that Merseytravel are a bit strapped for cash, but it's a shame to see a lack of ambition in this area - a growth build is really needed to provide capacity not just now, but for the next few decades.

That's the bit that struck me - neither more units than as now, nor more services. All rather underwhelming save the new trains themselves
 

prod_pep

Established Member
Joined
8 Aug 2010
Messages
1,500
Location
Liverpool
The reversing siding was never "disused" as such - prior to the timetable changes for Maghull North there were still two or three trains every weekday in the morning and evening peak which were booked to reverse in the siding and usually did so. Also used by the regular stock swap workings between Birkenhead North and Kirkdale depots.

It is certainly now being used much more - by (almost?) all Ormskirk trains during Monday to Saturday daytimes, but not in the evenings or Sundays, when the Ormskirk and Kirkby lines interwork as they have done for many years.

I was about to say the same thing: the reversing siding was never anything like disused. There were a number of movements in the peaks and a handful during the evening. Also at least one a day on both Saturday and Sunday as stock transferred between Northern and Wirral Lines.

The Ormskirk and Kirkby trains actually don't interwork any longer in the evenings and Sundays as they did prior to Maghull North opening. Normal practice is 3 units on Ormskirk and 2 on Kirkby during these times, an increase on the 4 sets required for the previously alternating service.
 

M28361M

Member
Joined
15 May 2014
Messages
539
Location
Liverpool
The Ormskirk and Kirkby trains actually don't interwork any longer in the evenings and Sundays as they did prior to Maghull North opening.

Should have looked more closely at RTT before posting - I stand corrected, thanks.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,870
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The Ormskirk and Kirkby trains actually don't interwork any longer in the evenings and Sundays as they did prior to Maghull North opening. Normal practice is 3 units on Ormskirk and 2 on Kirkby during these times, an increase on the 4 sets required for the previously alternating service.

Has there been a punctuality improvement as a result of the half-an-extra-unit on each line, out of interest?
 

Meerkat

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2018
Messages
7,529
That's the bit that struck me - neither more units than as now, nor more services. All rather underwhelming save the new trains themselves

Considering the level of subsidy it would seem a bit greedy to be disappointed by ONLY getting brand new, faster, trains.
How much improvement would exercising the options cover? Just Skem/Helsby/Shotton or does it imply ambitions to use them to take over other lines from Northern - City lines and Wigan maybe?
 

hexagon789

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
15,788
Location
Glasgow
Considering the level of subsidy it would seem a bit greedy to be disappointed by ONLY getting brand new, faster, trains.
How much improvement would exercising the options cover? Just Skem/Helsby/Shotton or does it imply ambitions to use them to take over other lines from Northern - City lines and Wigan maybe?

Well exercising the option is more than double the number of units planned, so you could either run most services as doubles or improve frequencies.
 

Camden

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2014
Messages
1,949
Considering the level of subsidy it would seem a bit greedy to be disappointed by ONLY getting brand new, faster, trains.
Unless exercising the option signals investment to complete the system, and turn the lower performing branches (in cash terms) into highly performing ones. It makes no sense to perpetually pay out subsidy when investment can reduce or eliminate the need for it.
 

Top