Prototype HST Power Car 41001 to return to York

Alanko · 10 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
It is also clesr you have no idea about the people the nrm are trying to attract. It isnt trainspotters. It is families with nothing more than a passing intrest in Thomas and trains having a free day out.

From the tiniest of acorns, and all of that. There are plenty of museums that try and cater to deeper, and more niche, interests. Some of them even turn a profit! :lol:

If one child in a hundred develops an interest then surely that is a good thing? I was dragged to various railway platforms as a kid to see various steam engines. I sat in the back of my parents' car for what felt like hours up at Blackford to see something blast past in the rain. I can't say any of that left much of an impression (I will kick myself if I ever find out the full wealth of what I saw on the railways as a kid), but that cut-away engine in the NRM still sticks with me, as did seeing Mallard.

RailUK Forums

Malcmal · 10 Oct 2019

43096 said:
They are answerable though. In terms of visitors they attract. In terms of objectives from the SMG, and ultimately from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

Yes I agree. But I seriously doubt the prototype HST power car has much of an impact on museum footfall. All the debates back and forward about Joe Public have nothing to do with 41001 which is what caused this thread to exist in the first place. I 100% agree that the NRM is trying to appeal to the common denominator here which basically means anything vaguely looking like it featured in Thomas And Friends. And nobody can argue that the NRM tweeted a very direct and probably unprofessional rant whereas the 125 group were very professional in their own output.

Cowley · 10 Oct 2019

43096 said:
Far too much hysterical reaction to this.

It's the NRM's asset, they can do with it what they want. If their plans have changed and they don't want to renew the loan agreement, it is their prerogative to do so. If they think that 41001 doesn't need to be on display, likewise. Some people may not like it, but what is displayed is rightly down to the NRM making decisions in the context of its overall objectives. It is not a talent contest as to what gets put on show - that's how you end up with "Boaty McBoatface" - and there is simply not enough space to have everything on display.

It’s a shame that it’s ended up like this, the group did some amazing work getting 41001 running again. Washing all the dirty laundry in public does nobody any favours. But as you’ve said already the experience gained from looking after this machine will be invaluable when the time comes to owning one (and hopefully more than one) of the production power cars when they become available.
I spent a wonderful day travelling behind it on the GCRN earlier in year (sitting opposite yourself for for some of the time), and now I just feel really lucky that I got that chance.
I do wonder if things with the NRM could have been patched up at some point if there hadn’t been the instant bashing off of tweets and large amount of interest forum froth though...
At least the 125 Group seems to have thankfully retained their usual professional manner in all of this though.

Alanko · 10 Oct 2019

I see nothing unprofessional across the NRM's 4 Tweets. It certainly isn't a rant.

The 125 group's message "(we are) very disappointed that the work undertaken by us will no longer be of use in the future." smacks of sour grapes, if anything. Who says it can't run again in the future, or that their hard work will wither away to nothing, if the loco is used as a static exhibit for the time being.

Malcmal · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
I see nothing unprofessional across the NRM's 4 Tweets. It certainly isn't a rant.

The 125 group's message "(we are) very disappointed that the work undertaken by us will no longer be of use in the future." smacks of sour grapes, if anything. Who says it can't run again in the future, or that their hard work will wither away to nothing, if the loco is used as a static exhibit for the time being.

Well I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as the saying goes

DarloRich · 10 Oct 2019

Cowley said:
It’s a shame that it’s ended up like this, the group did some amazing work getting 41001 running again. Washing all the dirty laundry in public does nobody any favours. But as you’ve said already the experience gained from looking after this machine will be invaluable when the time comes to owning one (and hopefully more than one) of the production power cars when they become available.

Agreed.

43096 said:
They are answerable though. In terms of visitors they attract. In terms of objectives from the SMG, and ultimately from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

Indeed - especially on visitor numbers - but not to you or me ( or at least not beyond the most convoluted fashion). The recent document setting out the strategic direction for the NRM sets the tone for the future.

Malcmal said:
And nobody can argue that the NRM tweeted a very direct and probably unprofessional rant whereas the 125 group were very professional in their own output.

yes they can and I will!

Alanko said:
Who says it can't run again in the future, or that their hard work will wither away to nothing, if the loco is used as a static exhibit for the time being.

Agreed - no one knows the plans for the future. I hope it is a future with this locomotive working pulling trains on the railway but we don't get to influence that decision

Malcmal · 10 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
yes they can and I will!

I am not ashamed to admit I burst out laughing when I read this!!! Classic DarloRich

Alanko · 10 Oct 2019

Cowley said:
It’s a shame that it’s ended up like this, the group did some amazing work getting 41001 running again.

The group did so with the full knowledge that the chain could be yanked at any time.

The frothing online seems to be coming from grown men who are upset because they won't get to see an engine making noises and smoke any more. The reaction seems disproportionate to the news, really. Get upset at the locos languishing in Barry Scrapyard condition out there.

It might also be worth remembering that Deltic prototype DP2 was lost in an accident. It is highly highly unlikely that 41001 would be lost in an accident, but the risk is there. If an accident happens then you lose a unique loco. Perhaps the NRM weren't convinced that the 125 Group, despite their enthusiasm for, an dedication to the loco, had fully addressed this risk? Look no further than the multi-page thread on here a while back about heritage railways trying to 'have it both ways', and the dreaded helf 'n' safety getting in the way of a fun time. An organisation can word a Tweet professionally, but the NRM will be privy to much more than any punter on a forum will be into the inner workings of the group.

DarloRich · 10 Oct 2019

Malcmal said:
I am not ashamed to admit I burst out laughing when I read this!!! Classic DarloRich

The NRM statement is a sensible, restrained, corporate statement. It is nothing like a rant. It is not unprofessional and it isn't even very direct! However it is clear you are keen to assign a bad motive to the whole event.

Alanko said:
The frothing online seems to be coming from grown men who are upset because they won't get to see an engine making noises and smoke any more. The reaction seems disproportionate to the news, really. Get upset at the locos languishing in Barry Scrapyard condition out there.

Agreed.

Cowley · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
I see nothing unprofessional across the NRM's 4 Tweets. It certainly isn't a rant.

The 125 group's message "(we are) very disappointed that the work undertaken by us will no longer be of use in the future." smacks of sour grapes, if anything. Who says it can't run again in the future, or that their hard work will wither away to nothing, if the loco is used as a static exhibit for the time being.

I guess it’s a history thing. As a general rule most of the NRMs mainline diesels don’t look very much like they’re likely to run again in the near future. As I understand it 41001 has an issue with one of its compression rings? Bearing in mind what happened with 55002 after another group volunteered to work on it and managed to get it back on the mainline, it seems more than possible that 41001 will end up (just like 55002) becoming a cold museum piece again.
Both these machines hadn’t worked for decades, and took an enormous amount of work (and help from other benefactors) to run again, the longer something sits the longer things deteriorate (even if they are stored under cover). Pipe work deteriorates, ancillary machinery starts to seize up etc.
I can understand why they’ve stated it in that way.

Malcmal · 10 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
The NRM statement is a sensible, restrained, corporate statement. It is nothing like a rant. It is not unprofessional and it isn't even very direct! However it is clear you are keen to assign a bad motive to the whole event.

Well we can agree to disagree and no blood is spilled - that's the beauty of online forums.

Alanko · 10 Oct 2019

Malcmal said:
Well I guess "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as the saying goes

I consider the HST prototype to be considerably uglier than the production 43s. Does that count? :lol:

How many Valentas are left out there? If somebody stuck one in an off-lease HST power car, and painted it in the Intercity 'Swallow' livery, then even I would get all excited and nostalgic about that.

Cowley · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
I consider the HST prototype to be considerably uglier than the production 43s. Does that count?

How many Valentas are left out there? If somebody stuck one in an off-lease HST power car, and painted it in the Intercity 'Swallow' livery, then even I would get all excited and nostalgic about that.

And me!
(I love a bit of livery froth Alanko)

DarloRich · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
How many Valentas are left out there? If somebody stuck one in an off-lease HST power car, and painted it in the Intercity 'Swallow' livery, then even I would get all excited and nostalgic about that.

Cowley said:
And me!

Motion carried!

Malcmal · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
I consider the HST prototype to be considerably uglier than the production 43s. Does that count?

How many Valentas are left out there? If somebody stuck one in an off-lease HST power car, and painted it in the Intercity 'Swallow' livery, then even I would get all excited and nostalgic about that.

To be honest my "eye of the beholder" comment was about how you interpret those two tweets!! Seems opinion is split as to who is the aggressor.

Alanko · 10 Oct 2019

Cowley said:
I guess it’s a history thing. As a general rule most of the NRMs mainline diesels don’t look very much like they’re likely to run again in the near future. As I understand it 41001 has an issue with one of its compression rings? Bearing in mind what happened with 55002 after another group volunteered to work on it and managed to get it back on the mainline, it seems more than possible that 41001 will end up (just like 55002) becoming a cold museum piece again.
Both these machines hadn’t worked for decades, and took an enormous amount of work (and help from other benefactors) to run again, the longer something sits the longer things deteriorate (even if they are stored under cover). Pipe work deteriorates, ancillary machinery starts to seize up etc.
I can understand why they’ve stated it in that way.

Presumably there is a way of inhibiting these locomotives in a controlled manner to stop things deteriorating? I suppose the flip-side of this argument is that we have DP1 (at Shildon currently?). You could do all sorts of modifications to DP1 to make it a main line runner, but we are in a fortunate position that it really is a true 'museum piece' and therefore not modified or chopped around.

Secondly, as sad as it is having 55002 doing precious little, Deltic Alycidon took that massive blast of electricity earlier this year near Drem and things have gone very quiet on that front since.

43096 · 10 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
The NRM statement is a sensible, restrained, corporate statement. It is nothing like a rant. It is not unprofessional and it isn't even very direct!

Disagree. It's unnecessary. All that needs to be said is that the agreement ends shortly and we've been unable to conclude a new agreement. Look at today's 125 Group statement - the NRM hasn't even discussed the issues with them.

DarloRich · 10 Oct 2019

43096 said:
Disagree. It's unnecessary. All that needs to be said is that the agreement ends shortly and we've been unable to conclude a new agreement. Look at today's 125 Group statement - the NRM hasn't even discussed the issues with them.

The NRM received a lot of pressure from social media and real media sources to release more details and be more "transparent". They obviously felt they had to say more to the public to try and manage the message. That may not have worked although I suspect most people in the real world wont look beyond the NRM statement

43096 · 10 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
The NRM received a lot of pressure from social media and real media sources to release more details and be more "transparent". They obviously felt they had to say more to the public to try and manage the message. That may not have worked although I suspect most people in the real world wont look beyond the NRM statement

So that excuses making accusations without any evidence - aimed at volunteers, lest we forget - does it?

richa2002 · 10 Oct 2019

43096 said:
So that excuses making accusations without any evidence - aimed at volunteers, lest we forget - does it?

Agreed. I would say it's quite obvious which outfit has been more professional here. Far too many in society take a handful of loud people on social media too seriously. Stay adult and stay professional. Something we could all do well to remember from time to time I'd say!

E759 · 10 Oct 2019

Alanko said:
Presumably there is a way of inhibiting these locomotives in a controlled manner to stop things deteriorating? I suppose the flip-side of this argument is that we have DP1 (at Shildon currently?). You could do all sorts of modifications to DP1 to make it a main line runner, but we are in a fortunate position that it really is a true 'museum piece' and therefore not modified or chopped around.

Secondly, as sad as it is having 55002 doing precious little, Deltic Alycidon took that massive blast of electricity earlier this year near Drem and things have gone very quiet on that front since.

Museums conserve their exhibits so that they don't turn to dust and rust which they would otherwise do.
I've already said up-thread where DP1 is located.
There has been a debate forever around preserving prototype vs. production. Museums are more about telling the human life story rather than being just a warehouse full of old junk. So in 50-100 years time people will look at the HST and say oh yes my great-grandmother told me about the holidays she took using those. The guide will be very please to hear that story or cough and say sorry no, this was the prototype, not many people travelled on it and the train your great-grandmother travelled on was different. The visitor then goes away disappointed that the train that moved millions of people around the country no longer exists.

DarloRich · 10 Oct 2019

43096 said:
So that excuses making accusations without any evidence - aimed at volunteers, lest we forget - does it?

richa2002 said:
Agreed. I would say it's quite obvious which outfit has been more professional here. Far too many in society take a handful of loud people on social media too seriously. Stay adult and stay professional. Something we could all do well to remember from time to time I'd say!

I am not making any judgements on who is to blame as it serves no purpose. I simply answered your question. As I said neither statement was unprofessional in wording or tone. However, someone ( we think) is not being entirely accurate. Are we equipped to decide that? What if it isn't the NRM to blame as you and others seem to suggest? Do any of us know the full story?

Willr2094 · 11 Oct 2019

It is a shame the 125 Group has had the lease agreement terminated. They did a fantastic job getting the prototype running again after so long out of operation and hopefully the lessons they learned from operating it will be very beneficial when the time comes for them to acquire (at least) one of the production power cars.

Edders23 · 11 Oct 2019

All mechanical vehicles be they locos cars trains or buses benefit from being run on a semi regular basis. Storing them is not the best way to maintain them as the mechanical side will deteriorate due to lack of circulation of oil etc.

The NRM does not have nor can afford to provide enough space to display all it's assets so "farming" them out to heritage railways makes a lot of sense that's why this decision is disappointing and I fear for the other locos in this position

The NRM are very much geared to displaying star attractions rather than the workhorses of the railway so there is a danger that some of the exhibits could be locked away hidden from public view for 10 or more years this is the real tragedy of this decision

Flying Phil · 11 Oct 2019

Whilst none of us know the full story, it is a fact that the 125 Group did get the locomotive fully restored and running. They have also raised £85,000 of a £100,000 target to have a dedicated 125 depot building at Ruddington. They do seem surprised about the stated concerns of the NRM - there should be a "paper trail" of prior correspondence?
Anyway, I sincerely hope that the Group will now get a pair of production power units.....and retro fit a Valenta in one of them!

DarloRich · 11 Oct 2019

Seeing as I have been getting a slagging ( again) I want to say that while i accept that the NRM have made a decision to not extend the lease of their asset I am disappointed with that decision. As @Flying Phil & @Edders23 say lots of hard work has go into fixing this locomotive up and making it run again. It is very sad that wont continue.

That said I joined the 125 group because I support their long term aims. They haven't changed and I will continue to support them despite this set back. I urge you all to do so. If I am honest the prototype HST is just a bonus. None of us ( I bet) were hauled by the prototype power car but we all had real HST's The "real" HST are the thing for me. I want the group to get some of those and work hard on fixing them up so we can all continue to enjoy them. If they can put the original engine back in superb. If not lets keep HST's running.

Tempest3K · 11 Oct 2019

The group aims haven't changed as detailed here

Ultimately, to raise enough money to purchase some examples of IC 125 rolling stock to enter preservation. Such rolling stock shall include one or more power cars, as near as possible to original operational configuration, but including as a minimum a Paxman Valenta engined power car, Marston cooler group and original shaped front end.

E759 · 11 Oct 2019

Edders23 said:
All mechanical vehicles be they locos cars trains or buses benefit from being run on a semi regular basis. Storing them is not the best way to maintain them as the mechanical side will deteriorate due to lack of circulation of oil etc.

The NRM does not have nor can afford to provide enough space to display all it's assets so "farming" them out to heritage railways makes a lot of sense that's why this decision is disappointing and I fear for the other locos in this position

The NRM are very much geared to displaying star attractions rather than the workhorses of the railway so there is a danger that some of the exhibits could be locked away hidden from public view for 10 or more years this is the real tragedy of this decision

Please list the star attractions which were not workhorses for me as I can't readily think of any apart from royal train coaches. Thank you.

50039 · 11 Oct 2019

I find it a sad reflection on modern society and media that the communications between the two parties have to be carried out in public via Twitter.
Whatever has gone on, it’s between the NRM and the 125group - the carefully worded tweets are propaganda and manipulation of the blame game.

Alanko · 11 Oct 2019

50039 said:
I find it a sad reflection on modern society and media that the communications between the two parties have to be carried out in public via Twitter.
Whatever has gone on, it’s between the NRM and the 125group - the carefully worded tweets are propaganda and manipulation of the blame game.

I assume a lot more communication has taken place out of the public gaze.

Prototype HST Power Car 41001 to return to York

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