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TfL Rail to Reading - no Oyster so no Railcards?

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Belperpete

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I'm sure a date could be set to switch them off. It'd need a mass publicity campaign along with direct emails to registered account holders still with 1st gen cards, but I doubt it'd be impossible.
Little different to when the old fivers, tenners etc. ceased to be legal tender. There are still plenty of the old ones stuffed in drawers or such-like (I have one as a keep-sake). As long as you can still exchange them after the cut-off date, no problem.

I would suggest a period before the cut-off during which anyone using a first-generation card would get the message "please seek assistance" every time they tapped in or out, but the card still lets them travel.

How do you exchange a first-generation card for a second-generation card? Is it possible for someone to just turn-up at a station with a first-generation card and there-and-then get a member of staff to transfer everything on it onto a second generation card? (Is it still possible to buy Oystercards at underground stations these days now they no longer have ticket offices?) For registered cards, it should be possible to just send a new card out, and then shortly after cancel the old one. However, many people do not want to register their Oystercard, and having to send the card off to get it replaced would put a lot of people off.
 
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WelshBluebird

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There will always be somebody who will misunderstand. In my years in customer facing industries I found that there was a certain type of person who would, possibly deliberately, put the wrong interpretation on the conditions of any transaction. (I am sure that people have claimed that the upgrade fee for a Weekend First was the full first class fare)

Of course, the law is that if the terms are ambiguous so that a reasonable person could take the "wrong interpretation", then it is the fault of the company setting the terms, not the customer. Terms have to be unambiguous, and if they aren't then the interpenetration in favour of the customer is the one that should be used.

Of course, what is a "reasonable person" is a topic of its own and I fully accept there are some people who specifically try to claim they can do something the terms do not actually say. But that is different to "interpretations".
 

swt_passenger

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Little different to when the old fivers, tenners etc. ceased to be legal tender. There are still plenty of the old ones stuffed in drawers or such-like (I have one as a keep-sake). As long as you can still exchange them after the cut-off date, no problem.

I would suggest a period before the cut-off during which anyone using a first-generation card would get the message "please seek assistance" every time they tapped in or out, but the card still lets them travel.

How do you exchange a first-generation card for a second-generation card? Is it possible for someone to just turn-up at a station with a first-generation card and there-and-then get a member of staff to transfer everything on it onto a second generation card? (Is it still possible to buy Oystercards at underground stations these days now they no longer have ticket offices?) For registered cards, it should be possible to just send a new card out, and then shortly after cancel the old one. However, many people do not want to register their Oystercard, and having to send the card off to get it replaced would put a lot of people off.
I updated my registered card following instructions on their website a couple of years ago. It arrived through the post about 2 days later and the old one went in the bin. I don’t rememberer the exact procedure it’s that long ago.
 

Acton1991

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What frustrates me (and I’m sure many others), as someone based along the Western section of the line, is that after being told for years that Oyster would be available, I will now have to forfeit the convenience of PAYG in order to obtain my Railcard discount.

Unless in the next few months, they work out a way of processing this on Contactless? Then happy days!
 

higthomas

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What frustrates me (and I’m sure many others), as someone based along the Western section of the line, is that after being told for years that Oyster would be available, I will now have to forfeit the convenience of PAYG in order to obtain my Railcard discount.

Unless in the next few months, they work out a way of processing this on Contactless? Then happy days!
Yeah, I'm somewhat perplexed they haven't managed to add railcards and season tickets to contactless yet. Given it's all back office anyway and one can register a contactless card with ones account already.
 

Pete268

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Does anyone know if the Disabled Veterans Oyster card will be valid on this route from Paddington to Reading? I did ask TfL but they couldn't give me a definite answer.

The wording on the Veterans Oyster site states:
Free travel at anytime on bus, Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and TfL Rail
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/free-and-discounted-travel/veterans-oyster-photocard#on-this-page-1

and although the route doesn't yet appear on the Veterans Oyster Map, it does state:
Free travel after 9.30am on National Rail services, any time at weekends and public holidays, any time on London Overground and TfL Rail services. Not valid on Heathrow Express.
https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/veterans-map.pdf

What is confusing, is that when I use my Veterans Oyster on London buses etc is shows as 'Freedom Pass' on the display. Also, I have been stopped a few times by Revenue Protection Staff at Underground stations after touching in/out. When they have looked at my Veterans Oyster, they are absolutely fine with it, but one did tell me it shows as 'Freedom Pass' on some indicator somewhere and they look out for ‘fit looking’ Freedom Pass users (my injuries are invisible at first sight – severe burns on skin under clothing/left arm paralysis/blindness in one eye).

So, is a Veterans Oyster equivalent to a ‘Freedom Pass’?

What does confuse me as well, is that if it is valid on this route, then it seems I will lose that validity at the age of 60, as the Veterans Oyster site also states:
You also can't get a Veterans Oyster photocard if you live in a London borough and are eligible for a 60+ London Oyster photocard or Freedom Pass

Someone upthread has said that the 60+ Oyster card will not be valid on this route. (Because my injuries are not really mobility based, I don’t think I would qualify for a Freedom Pass).

So if the Veterans Oyster is valid on the route, a Veteran over 60 who doesn’t live in a London Borough (i.e. he/she lives in Reading) can keep their Veterans Oyster and use it on the route into/out of London every day. However a Veteran living in London cannot, as the Veterans Oyster would need to be changed to a ‘60+ Oyster’ which isn’t valid on the route. Which all seems a bit cock-eyed.

Sorry this is longwinded, but I am confused by it all (and TfL were no help)!

Thanks
 

PeterC

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Of course, the law is that if the terms are ambiguous so that a reasonable person could take the "wrong interpretation", then it is the fault of the company setting the terms, not the customer. Terms have to be unambiguous, and if they aren't then the interpenetration in favour of the customer is the one that should be used.

Of course, what is a "reasonable person" is a topic of its own and I fully accept there are some people who specifically try to claim they can do something the terms do not actually say. But that is different to "interpretations".
The law is one thing, a customer, right or wrong, sounding off in public is another.
 

matt_world2004

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Yeah, I'm somewhat perplexed they haven't managed to add railcards and season tickets to contactless yet. Given it's all back office anyway and one can register a contactless card with ones account already.
Wouldnt it be easier technically to issue railcards and season tickets on a second gen oyster card(maybe not brand it oyster vard to avoid confusion) with a flag that makes it compatible with the gateline and charge the reduced price
 

higthomas

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Wouldnt it be easier technically to issue railcards and season tickets on a second gen oyster card(maybe not brand it oyster vard to avoid confusion) with a flag that makes it compatible with the gateline and charge the reduced price

Yes, but the problem with that is that it is pretty much impossible to advertise that "Oyster cards are valid at this station, but only if they are second gen (I.E. They have a little D on the back)".

Hence why I want them to get rid of 1st gen Oysters ASAP. (Or do both at the same time, and move to a completely back office 3rd gen "Scallop Card")
 

matt_world2004

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Yes, but the problem with that is that it is pretty much impossible to advertise that "Oyster cards are valid at this station, but only if they are second gen (I.E. They have a little D on the back)".

Hence why I want them to get rid of 1st gen Oysters ASAP. (Or do both at the same time, and move to a completely back office 3rd gen "Scallop Card")
You just advertise it as a different product or not at all for example it could be described as "railcard name" with pay as you go functionality attached or season ticket origin destination (with smartcard discounted pay as you go functionality) undiscounted pay go fares available after expiry of railcard/season printed on the railcard.

It was plain idiocy branding the line as a tube line when tube tickets are not vallid on the whole line. But theres boris to thank for that.The amount of people I have seen pf'd for getting on the tfl rail to heathrow with a roundel bearing tube ticket to heathrow is quite high.
 

higthomas

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You just advertise it as a different product or not at all for example it could be described as "railcard name" with pay as you go functionality attached or season ticket origin destination (with smartcard discounted pay as you go functionality) undiscounted pay go fares available after expiry of railcard/season printed on the railcard.

It was plain idiocy branding the line as a tube line when tube tickets are not vallid on the whole line. But theres boris to thank for that.The amount of people I have seen pf'd for getting on the tfl rail to heathrow with a roundel bearing tube ticket to heathrow is quite high.

TFL are trying to minimise the numbers of Oyster cards in use. They are not going to want everyone who gets a Travelcard or wants to add a railcard to get an entirely new card.
 

matt_world2004

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TFL are trying to minimise the numbers of Oyster cards in use. They are not going to want everyone who gets a Travelcard or wants to add a railcard to get an entirely new card.
They dont, it should just replace the photocard component of a national rail ticket. With it being electronically renewable.
 

daveshah

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Processing the railcard discount for a contactless card, once a flag is set on the backend really shouldn't be difficult unless something is very broken in their architecture. The two problems I see are:
  • Revenue protection, as I think was brought up previously. But given the revenue inspection devices can already store a list of blacklisted cards (and afaik this is a pretty big list), storing a list of railcard discounted cards shouldn't be hard (remember a thumbnail sized 64GB microsd card costing £20 could store over a billion card identifiers)
  • Setting the flag - I don't think current TVMs can do any operations involving the contactless backend (even if they do contactless payments for tickets I expect this is different from the contactless travel backend), so might require significant software changes to implement the current staff-set-it-for-you approach. Some kind of self-service might be possible but the risk of fraud could be high, although maybe it could be tied into the new digital railcards.
 

James H

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I'm sure I heard someone high up at TfL (maybe even Mike Brown) say at a board meeting or London Assembly meeting that railcard (etc) discounts on Contactless were possible and would eventually be implemented
 

si404

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It was plain idiocy branding the line as a tube line when tube tickets are not vallid on the whole line.
They didn't know back then that they wouldn't be. The expectation and assumption was that they would be, with little risk that they wouldn't.

This summer even, the in house TfL ticketing magazine said that a zone had been reserved for it. It's unclear why this isn't happening beyond some total unforeseen balls up somewhere.
 

matt_world2004

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They didn't know back then that they wouldn't be. The expectation and assumption was that they would be, with little risk that they wouldn't.

This summer even, the in house TfL ticketing magazine said that a zone had been reserved for it. It's unclear why this isn't happening beyond some total unforeseen balls up somewhere.
They did know that paper tube tickets to heathrow and or ealing broadway wouldnt be valid on the elizabeth line
 
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MikeWh

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This summer even, the in house TfL ticketing magazine said that a zone had been reserved for it. It's unclear why this isn't happening beyond some total unforeseen balls up somewhere.
It's like this. They need all the zones from 7 to 15 to cover from Iver to Reading. TfL set the caps for 7, 8 and 9; LNW set the cap for 10; GA set the caps for 11 and 12; GTR set the caps for 13 and 14. It's not possible to co-ordinate all that into a sensible structure acceptable to GWR.
 

si404

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They did know that paper tube tickets to heathrow and or ealing broadway wouldnt be valid on the elizabeth line
Not then. The Heathrow fares issue was sorted later on (like a couple of months before transfer - and so 2 years after the Elizabeth line branding), with lots of stuff going wrong for TfL to get where we are. Not sure why Ealing Broadway via Paddington NR isn't valid as the line out to West Drayton is integrated into TfL's fare structure on Oyster (and has since the beginning) and I'm getting quotes for cash fares for Ealing Broadway rail station to Marylebone tube station.

And paper tube tickets are an anachronism - now as well as then. While you can buy them, they are either travelcards (and thus valid on everything within zones 1-6 or 1-9, except for HEx or Javelin services), or specific single tickets that do station to station. That you can't get single paper tube tickets at Heathrow rail stations is mostly as there wasn't any need for TfL to create such a thing - it's a different thing to not abolishing them as has happened on the network they had pre-2010. TfL don't quote cash fares for the Liverpool Street Overground lines, but do for the ex-Silverlink ones - because the ex-Silverlink ones transferred before Oyster was overwhelmingly dominant to the point where nearly no one bought paper singles.

Plus, while branded like one of the tube family, the purple roundels do say "this is a cousin, not a sibling - it's different". Now that's never, IME, been enough for the people who want a Metro/RER or U-/S-Bahn branding distinction between a line that travels more than a hour out of London from Liverpool Street, in full-sized trains, through central and inner London to beyond the Greater London boundary at half-hourly frequency, and another line that travels more than a hour out of London from Liverpool Street, in full-sized trains, through central and inner London to beyond the Greater London boundary at half-hourly frequency (and note that it's the red-roundel trains to Amersham and Chesham that take longer than the purple-roundel trains to Reading!). ;)
It's like this. They need all the zones from 7 to 15 to cover from Iver to Reading. TfL set the caps for 7, 8 and 9; LNW set the cap for 10; GA set the caps for 11 and 12; GTR set the caps for 13 and 14. It's not possible to co-ordinate all that into a sensible structure acceptable to GWR.
True, unless GWR was like GA or GTR able to accept a long zone covering 6 consecutive stations (OK, Broxbourne-Hertford East inclusive is only 5, as is Mertsham-Hooley inclusive). The issue here is 'acceptable to GWR', rather than 'It's not possible to co-ordinate all that into a sensible structure'.

My point was mainly that it is nonsense that they knew back in 2016 that Oyster wouldn't be valid, especially given they were still talking about zone 15 being reserved for the whole line to Reading internally not very long ago.

As for the issue of trying to get Oyster, surely they could have given Iver and Langley a zone under 10 as only TfL would serve them, with Slough (as a GWR station) given zone 15 (which could extent to TfL-only Burnham and Taplow). OK, that doesn't cover the last three stations, but it deals with the 4 TfL stations, and all but 3 of the stations served by TfL services (which would be ones where people would tend to board GWR services anyway) - it goes a long way to addressing the problem. But they aren't doing that!
 

matt_world2004

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And paper tube tickets are an anachronism - now as well as then. While you can buy them, they are either travelcards (and thus valid on everything within zones 1-6 or 1-9, except for HEx or Javelin services), or specific single tickets that do station to station. That you can't get single paper tube tickets at Heathrow rail stations is mostly as there wasn't any need for TfL to create such a thing - it's a different thing to not abolishing them as has happened on the network they had pre-2010. TfL don't quote cash fares for the Liverpool Street Overground lines, but do for the ex-Silverlink ones - because the ex-Silverlink ones transferred before Oyster was overwhelmingly dominant to the point where nearly no one bought paper singles.

TfL Shouldnt be penalty faring people using U zone tickets to Heathrow airport or any intermediate station towards heathrow airport when they have branded the line like an underground line. They were in complete control of the fare between Paddington and Heathrow on their services because the ticket is only valid on their services.
 

JonathanH

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Slough (as a GWR station) given zone 15 (which could extent to TfL-only Burnham and Taplow).

That isn't really practical - Slough would be outside Gatwick's zone but would expect a cheaper fare cap - it would make more sense to put Slough in an existing zone and then reassign the zones further out - ie Gatwick becomes 15.

One massive problem is that the peak cap for Reading will be about £50. Even from Gatwick it is only £33.10 (although that isn't that much less than the anytime travelcard from Twyford which is £35.30 and the anytime travelcard from Maidenhead is less at £30).
 

matt_world2004

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That isn't really practical - Slough would be outside Gatwick's zone but would expect a cheaper fare cap - it would make more sense to put Slough in an existing zone and then reassign the zones further out - ie Gatwick becomes 15.

One massive problem is that the peak cap for Reading will be about £50. Even from Gatwick it is only £33.10 (although that isn't that much less than the anytime travelcard from Twyford which is £35.30 and the anytime travelcard from Maidenhead is less at £30).
I dint think internal zonal pricing has to linerly increase in price. Indeed heathrow airport (zone 6) has some of the cheapest and most expensive fares on the whole network. With travel within the heathrow fare zone beiing free and inter zonal travel from the airport being expensive
 

si404

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TfL Shouldnt be penalty faring people using U zone tickets to Heathrow airport or any intermediate station towards heathrow airport when they have branded the line like an underground line. They were in complete control of the fare between Paddington and Heathrow on their services because the ticket is only valid on their services.
U zone tickets aren't penalised (since TfL took over):
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/p...nect-services-ahead-of-elizabeth-line-opening
"As part of the integrated service, daily fare capping for Oyster and contactless and weekly fare capping for contactless will apply, with travelcards that cover Zone 6 able to be used on services to Heathrow."

The issue with Heathrow is that the single fare is more expensive than other Z1-6 fares due to running on privately owned track. But that exists on the ex-Anglia TfL routes too, despite being Network Rail owned track.
That isn't really practical - Slough would be outside Gatwick's zone but would expect a cheaper fare cap - it would make more sense to put Slough in an existing zone and then reassign the zones further out - ie Gatwick becomes 15
Very true. Still perfectly practical to do (and I'd argue that perhaps more stations might need to move out a zone behind the scenes to slot Slough in as a cheaper zone. Zones 12-14 have similar caps, only differing in the daily peak cap), but they haven't.

Or the alternative of having capping useless for Slough could exist... It's why they don't mention that Epsom and Cuffley are in zone 9 - paper travelcards are cheaper than the cap. The main reason why they are zone 9 is because it was the easiest place to put them. Pretty sure zone 9's 5 stations have 4 different sets of single fares (Chesham and Amersham being the same)!
 

matt_world2004

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si404

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A travelcard and a U-Zone ticket are not the same product.
Oh right, given I've NEVER had such a product (which is pretty hard to get anyway from what I can work out) available for my nearest tube station, I didn't know the difference.

Of course, they wouldn't exist for TfL Rail stations as they only exist because you cannot buy an NR ticket to a specific tube station, whereas you can buy NR tickets to specific TfL Rail stations anyway!

And looking at a 2012 thread on these, Heathrow Underground was a specific destination with a specific ticket back then, rather than a U-Zone 6 one. Thus the idea that Heathrow via TfL Rail not being a valid thing on a U1256 ticket is meaningless - Heathrow via the Piccadilly isn't either (or at least wasn't in 2012)!
 

matt_world2004

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And looking at a 2012 thread on these, Heathrow Underground was a specific destination with a specific ticket back then, rather than a U-Zone 6 one. Thus the idea that Heathrow via TfL Rail not being a valid thing on a U1256 ticket is meaningless - Heathrow via the Piccadilly isn't either (or at least wasn't in 2012)!

So how are the public meant to tell the difference between a picadilly line underground fare and an elizabeth line one.. The branding and marketing of the two services is nearly identical and in some cases a ticket machine at an elizabeth line station will sell the underground fare. U zone 6 fare is valid to heathrow piccadilly line. Also underground paper tickets are valid on London Overground services in zone 1-6 for the same destination /u zone printed on the ticket
 

Jammyhall

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Crossrail posted on their website that TFL Rail will be taking over some services to Reading by the end of the year, curiously though, they have noted this:

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/tfl-rail-to-operate-services-to-reading-from-15-december
"Pay as you go with Oyster will not be extended to services beyond West Drayton, due to limitations with the system, which is now more than 15 years old. Millions of journeys in and around London are already being made using contactless every day; with 60 per cent of rail pay as you go journeys made using contactless."

Will this be changed when the Crossrail Elizabeth Line opens? Contactless only on a non-TfL Service kind of makes sense - but it will seem strange when you can't use your Oyster on a TfL Service. With contactless being used so much, is it finally time to ditch Oyster altogether, or maybe develop a new system?

I guess technically you could argue that the stretch of line is outside of London, whereas Oyster should be seen as a London only card, but there are a few services outside of London which accept Oyster, mainly the met.
 

Dstock7080

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Crossrail posted on their website that TFL Rail will be taking over some services to Reading by the end of the year, curiously though, they have noted this:

"Pay as you go with Oyster will not be extended to services beyond West Drayton, due to limitations with the system, which is now more than 15 years old. Millions of journeys in and around London are already being made using contactless every day; with 60 per cent of rail pay as you go journeys made using contactless."

Will this be changed when C̶r̶o̶s̶s̶r̶a̶i̶l̶ The Elizabeth Line opens? Contactless only on a non TFL Service kind of makes sense- but it will seem strange when you cant use your Oyster on an actual TFL Service. With contactless being used so much is it finally time to ditch Oyster all together? or maybe develop a new system.

I guess technically you could argue that the stretch of line is outside of London, where as Oyster should be seen as a London only card, but there are a few services outside of London which accept Oyster, mainly the met.

Edit: Link to the article on Crossrails website: http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/tfl-rail-to-operate-services-to-reading-from-15-december
Oyster was only an interim measure until full contactless became available.
MTA New York has gone straight to contactless without introducing a smart card option before.
 

island

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How do you exchange a first-generation card for a second-generation card?
You buy a new 2nd generation card at a station, Oyster Ticket Stop, Visitor Centre, or The Tramlink Shop, or online. Then you register both of them on the TfL website and choose to transfer the card. The balance and any full-rate Travelcards stored on the old card will be loaded to the new card the next time it’s used to make a journey. The deposit from the old card will be paid into your TfL account, and can then be added as PAYG credit to the new card, or whatever. The old card will then be hotlisted.

If your old Oyster card has under £10 and no Travelcards on it, you can just buy a new Oyster card and refund the old one at an MFM (a ticket machine at a tube station that accepts banknotes).
Is it possible for someone to just turn-up at a station with a first-generation card and there-and-then get a member of staff to transfer everything on it onto a second generation card?
No.
(Is it still possible to buy Oystercards at underground stations these days now they no longer have ticket offices?)
Yes, they are sold at POMs at all Underground stations and have been for quite some time.
For registered cards, it should be possible to just send a new card out, and then shortly after cancel the old one. However, many people do not want to register their Oystercard, and having to send the card off to get it replaced would put a lot of people off.
The problem would be establishing what balance to put on the new card. If you don’t want to register or use the online system you have the option to refund the old card at an MFM once the balance is under £10 and buy a new one.
Oyster was only an interim measure until full contactless became available.
Oyster was launched years before contactless bank cards were even invented.
 
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