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3tph on North Downs Line

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JonathanH

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How on Earth could they have fixed Reigate??!!

They didn't have to. They only had to reduce risk at the other crossings to make the whole line fall below an overall level of risk. Two minor crossings between Dorking and Reigate have substantial crossing cameras installed.

See further back in the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/3tph-on-north-downs-line.140595/page-19#post-3978235

The planning applications submitted prior to the safety installations at the Buckland and Brockham crossings cited a nationwide directive from Network Rail.....that said the improvements are also listed as improvements needed prior to service frequency being increased.

 
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RichT54

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They didn't have to. They only had to reduce risk at the other crossings to make the whole line fall below an overall level of risk. Two minor crossings between Dorking and Reigate have substantial crossing cameras installed.

I thought the issue with Reigate was the extra amount of time the crossing would be closed to road traffic would lead to unacceptable traffic congestion in the area?
 

JonathanH

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I thought the issue with Reigate was the extra amount of time the crossing would be closed to road traffic would lead to unacceptable traffic congestion in the area?

Traffic congestion in Reigate is a Highways issue, not a safety issue for the running of the railway. There is work now planned for the A217 / M25 junction which will help in any case.
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/m25-junction-8-junction-improvement/

On other North Downs matters, a bit more of the December 2019 timetable is now visible in the open data. The 0554 from Reading now leaves Reigate at 0718 which should improve the connection into the 0729 to London Bridge. A number of the later trains which were previously omitted have now been input - eg the 2027 from Reading to Gatwick Airport and many of the services towards Reading which were missing - still not complete though.
 

MarkyT

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Traffic congestion in Reigate is a Highways issue, not a safety issue for the running of the railway. There is work now planned for the A217 / M25 junction which will help in any case. https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/m25-junction-8-junction-improvement/

Some further road improvements might improve things...
A new road for about 750m a from new A242 (Croydon Road) junction to the top end of Wray Lane which would be widened from current single lane one way configuration, thence to the A217 junction at the top of the hill where it would tie in with the junction improvements already proposed. Signage would direct most traffic for Reigate centre via the new road and A242, using the railway underbridge to the east of the station instead of the level crossing to the west at the bottom of Reigate Hill. Maybe large vehicles and buses etc could continue to use the A217, but the total quantity of traffic on that road, and thus using the crossing, could be reduced significantly.
reigatewraylane.jpg
 

JonathanH

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Some further road improvements might improve things...
A new road for about 750m a from new A242 (Croydon Road) junction to the top end of Wray Lane which would be widened from current single lane one way configuration, thence to the A217 junction at the top of the hill where it would tie in with the junction improvements already proposed. Signage would direct most traffic for Reigate centre via the new road and A242, using the railway underbridge to the east of the station instead of the level crossing to the west at the bottom of Reigate Hill. Maybe large vehicles and buses etc could continue to use the A217, but the total quantity of traffic on that road, and thus using the crossing, could be reduced significantly.

Not sure that would go down too well, National Trust land, puts traffic onto residential streets towards Redhill, parking on Croydon Road is dreadful...
 

Antman

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It would be far better to us the massive slip road to have an earlier turn to the left before going up the M25 hill towards a new roundabout to access Redhill and Reigate. But there's more chance of the Highland Main Line being upgraded to 186mph before that.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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It would be far better to us the massive slip road to have an earlier turn to the left before going up the M25 hill towards a new roundabout to access Redhill and Reigate. But there's more chance of the Highland Main Line being upgraded to 186mph before that.

Reckon that Class 66 and container train that ended up in a field at Carrbridge is the closest attempt at that speed to date 8-)
 

infobleep

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They didn't have to. They only had to reduce risk at the other crossings to make the whole line fall below an overall level of risk. Two minor crossings between Dorking and Reigate have substantial crossing cameras installed.

See further back in the thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/3tph-on-north-downs-line.140595/page-19#post-3978235
No wonder I'd forgotten that. It was from April. My memory for detailed facts like that isn't so great at times.

I still wonder would they have been able to implement the timetable sooner, had the infrastructure been in place or would there have being rolling stock issues instead.

I mean the delay to May 2020 is partly due to rolling stock, as well as timetable. I wonder if the issues affecting Northern Govia Thameslink Railway hadn't occurred in May 2018, would people be saying the delays were now due to rolling stock, as there might not be people saying there isn't enough time to do the timetable.

When it goes to 2 fast trains an hour, will the train times be able to be more clock face from Guildford?

Is there any public domain proposed documents with the times, as was intended previously?

If one misses the 08:14 Redhill to Reading, due to delays, then in theory no longer will they have to wait until 08:51 to get a service. A service which gets overtaken by 09:14 Redhill departure, at Guildford!.They will be able to jump on an 08:44 from Redhill.

However it does mean they won't be able to claim for an hours delay repay any more! I don't know how common missing the 8:14 actually is but I had it happen to me recently.
 
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Class 170101

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It is apparently now confirmed that GWR will be running the 3 trains per hour from May 2020. All the crossing issues are now fixed and it is a matter of arranging the stock and timetable.

About time this has taken long enough.
 

MarkyT

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The industry cannot just increase rail services passing over all existing level crossings without suitable risk assessment, and not until appropriate mitigations identified by that process have been implemented. Different types of crossings present different levels of risk to rail and road users. For fully barriered, manually supervised and controlled installations like Reigate, the risk is fairly low and the number of trains increasing doesn't increase exposure significantly. Clearly there is an issue of road congestion around more frequently closed crossings but as long as full barriers are provided and a human eyeball or OD system checks the crossing is clear before authorising rail movements, that is not a direct safety issue. It is crossings that are unprotected, like footpaths and farmers' occupation crossings, that represent the highest risk, with partially closed public vehicular crossings like AHBCs also significant. Any proposal to increase traffic (either rail or road) over crossings of these types in particular must involve a revised risk assessment by the duty holder to comply with H&S law.
 

Bald Rick

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And to add to what Mark says, those risk assessments take time, and cost money. Implementing mitigations similarly.
 

DelW

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Some further road improvements might improve things...
A new road for about 750m a from new A242 (Croydon Road) junction to the top end of Wray Lane which would be widened from current single lane one way configuration, thence to the A217 junction at the top of the hill where it would tie in with the junction improvements already proposed. Signage would direct most traffic for Reigate centre via the new road and A242, using the railway underbridge to the east of the station instead of the level crossing to the west at the bottom of Reigate Hill. Maybe large vehicles and buses etc could continue to use the A217, but the total quantity of traffic on that road, and thus using the crossing, could be reduced significantly.
Improving the top end of Wray Lane as you suggest would be very problematic. It's not only steep, it also runs along the crest of a narrow spine of land with the ground in places falling away steeply to either side, almost from the edge of the existing (single lane) road. The only way to widen it would be to lower the level to gain width, but that would increase the steepness of the hill to the north even more. A cutting through the ridge could reduce that, but it's National Trust land which (AIUI) is inalienable, needing an Act of Parliament to acquire. (The A27 Shoreham Bypass was tunnelled at Southwick Hill to avoid a similar problem at the South Downs).
 

Meerkat

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If you are getting into tunnelling then you may as well go for a tunnel under the station and a major redevelopment of that area.
It isn’t exactly full of glorious heritage architecture and you could greatly improve the density around the station, which is how it should be in urban areas (and might help pay for it)
 

MarkyT

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If you are getting into tunnelling then you may as well go for a tunnel under the station and a major redevelopment of that area.
It isn’t exactly full of glorious heritage architecture and you could greatly improve the density around the station, which is how it should be in urban areas (and might help pay for it)
While south of the railway is mostly commercial buildings, and businesses are usually pragmatic for the right price, there's much residential property immediately north of the railway which clearly COULD also be acquired through compulsory purchase theoretically, but the emotions of removing people from privately owned expensive homes of many years can make that very difficult politically. Reigate crossing is a very hard problem, which is presumably why it hasn't been solved yet. Just to reiterate though, it's a road traffic congestion problem, not a safety concern in this case.
 

MarkyT

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Improving the top end of Wray Lane as you suggest would be very problematic. It's not only steep, it also runs along the crest of a narrow spine of land with the ground in places falling away steeply to either side, almost from the edge of the existing (single lane) road. The only way to widen it would be to lower the level to gain width, but that would increase the steepness of the hill to the north even more. A cutting through the ridge could reduce that, but it's National Trust land which (AIUI) is inalienable, needing an Act of Parliament to acquire. (The A27 Shoreham Bypass was tunnelled at Southwick Hill to avoid a similar problem at the South Downs).
Thanks to all for the local knowledge. I now see the problems improving or paralleling Wray Lane. Improving traffic flow in Reigate is clearly a very hard problem. Better put my road crayons away...
 

RichT54

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Is it a case that when NR or a TOC wants to make changes to the frequency of services using a crossing, they are legally obliged to consult with councils and/or traffic authorities, or can they just make the changes and leave the consequences for others to sort out?
 

Bald Rick

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Is it a case that when NR or a TOC wants to make changes to the frequency of services using a crossing, they are legally obliged to consult with councils and/or traffic authorities, or can they just make the changes and leave the consequences for others to sort out?

The latter.
 

DelW

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Thanks to all for the local knowledge. I now see the problems improving or paralleling Wray Lane. Improving traffic flow in Reigate is clearly a very hard problem. Better put my road crayons away...
No problem, I drive up it on my way home on most working days, and if there's a problem on the A217 or at Junction 8, I get plenty of time to study the topography from the resulting queue. It's good practice for hill starts, too, as the queue shuffles slowly up the hill.... Fortunately I only have another couple of weeks of commuting via Reigate (after 13 years) so the effects of the 3tph across the level crossing there won't worry me :smile:
With hindsight, the roads linking to J8 from the south should have been improved when it was built, but that was as part of the very first stretch of M25 (between there and Godstone) in the 1970s, and I don't suppose anyone foresaw how much traffic from the south would develop. Personally, I think the best reasonably practical improvement would be to put a roundabout at the A217 / Gatton Bottom road junction, and provide a new link from Gatton Bottom at its east end to a Merstham western bypass (also much needed), but I don't see any of it happening any time soon.
upload_2019-10-10_9-1-34.png
 

Meerkat

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Merstham Bypass and changing the top of the M23 to connect it in the Redhill direction too and you are in business!
 

Minstral25

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Traffic congestion in Reigate is a Highways issue, not a safety issue for the running of the railway. There is work now planned for the A217 / M25 junction which will help in any case.
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/m25-junction-8-junction-improvement/

This planned work has no intention of relieving the level crossing and is about the junction being life-expired. There are no highway work planned to relieve the level crossing. All work will be north of the Wray lane Junction with A217. There will be massive queues caused by this service change and the people of Reigate will get very angry.

Surrey Highways just accept that traffic will get worse and are taking their typical County of West Surrey approach, it's not near us as its in East Surrey so we don't care. They actually don't care and are not planning any works to relieve although my reasoning may be tongue in cheek.
 

Minstral25

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Thanks to all for the local knowledge. I now see the problems improving or paralleling Wray Lane. Improving traffic flow in Reigate is clearly a very hard problem. Better put my road crayons away...

The bigger problem is that most of the traffic up Reigate Hill derives from outside Redhill and Reigate. It is either heading to Gatwick via the A217 or from the East/West A25 that also runs through the town, and then of course the many villages and small towns in the surrounding area. Thus a connection at Redhill will only remove a relatively small proportion of traffic.

Guess we need platform 3 at Reigate that will also include a new overpass for the A217, although that will just move the problem to the Reigate one way system - which is rubbish too.
 

Antman

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The problem is partly the one way system. Everything (bar the one cut through) is funnelled into the town centre. And over the level crossing. Reigate station is cramped and feels as rough as Redhill...

What Reigate needs is a proper ring road, taking traffic off the Dorking road, and those in from the south (the road toward Salford’s is rubbish with all the building of new estates)? The station is great for those who walk to it. But generally, it’s not a station you can drive to and park for a commute. Reigate collects a disproportionate amount of reverse commuters due to the insurance companies etc. But it’s traffic is rubbish.
 

infobleep

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The problem is partly the one way system. Everything (bar the one cut through) is funnelled into the town centre. And over the level crossing. Reigate station is cramped and feels as rough as Redhill...

What Reigate needs is a proper ring road, taking traffic off the Dorking road, and those in from the south (the road toward Salford’s is rubbish with all the building of new estates)? The station is great for those who walk to it. But generally, it’s not a station you can drive to and park for a commute. Reigate collects a disproportionate amount of reverse commuters due to the insurance companies etc. But it’s traffic is rubbish.
I once missed an hour train at Reigate because the rail replacement bus from Gatwick Airport got stuck in traffic. Thus was probably a Sunday during the period where they only ran 1 train an hour.
 

RichT54

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The local press has picked up the issue

https://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/reigate-traffic-could-much-worse-17102924

Reigate traffic could get much worse as level crossing set for 50% increase in trains
Great Western Railway has extra trains lined up to improve services on the line but there are fears having the level crossing down more often will cause traffic chaos.

The issue of cars and trains taking turns to use one of East Surrey's busiest roads has been a source of frustration for decades. And now that more trains are set to use the rail line - Great Western Railway has made extra trains available to increase capacity - fresh questions are being asked about the impact on the A217 traffic jams.
 

JonathanH

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Interestingly this story does identify some foot crossings further west on the route as being the crossings to address before 3tph can happen.

"We have recently closed [one pedestrian crossing near Sandhurst] on the route and are working to reduce risk on two others [both pedestrian crossings — at East Shalford and Darby Green near Yateley]. Following these works it will be possible to add an additional train per hour."

The piece from the Surrey Mirror is a bit sensationalist - unless there are problems on the M25 or M23, it is only really in the peaks that the level crossing causes problems in Reigate - at other times the northbound queue only just reaches the London Road / Castlefield Road junction - 3tph probably only means the barriers going down once more between 7.30 and 9 than they do at the moment. The turn from Reigate Hill into Raglan Road causes almost as much delay as the level crossing.

On another North Downs matter, the December timetable now appears to be complete in the usual sources.
 

infobleep

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Interestingly this story does identify some foot crossings further west on the route as being the crossings to address before 3tph can happen.



The piece from the Surrey Mirror is a bit sensationalist - unless there are problems on the M25 or M23, it is only really in the peaks that the level crossing causes problems in Reigate - at other times the northbound queue only just reaches the London Road / Castlefield Road junction - 3tph probably only means the barriers going down once more between 7.30 and 9 than they do at the moment. The turn from Reigate Hill into Raglan Road causes almost as much delay as the level crossing.

On another North Downs matter, the December timetable now appears to be complete in the usual sources.
There is one foot xorssing where you go up an embankment, cords the line and then down another embankment. I think that's on the North Downs Line either east or west of Guildford but not too far away. I remember being surprised at coming across it on my walk as I wouldn't have expected such a crossing.
 

Bald Rick

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There is one foot xorssing where you go up an embankment, cords the line and then down another embankment. I think that's on the North Downs Line either east or west of Guildford but not too far away. I remember being surprised at coming across it on my walk as I wouldn't have expected such a crossing.

There used to be one west of Guildford (at Backside Common) like that. I remember the first time I went over it as a kid, there were just stiles in the fence, and no crossing surface - you just walked across the tracks rather like a track ganger would. It horrified me then (and still does now!). However it has evidently been closed, although I suspect the gap in the con rail is still there.
 

Minstral25

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Interestingly this story does identify some foot crossings further west on the route as being the crossings to address before 3tph can happen.



The piece from the Surrey Mirror is a bit sensationalist - unless there are problems on the M25 or M23, it is only really in the peaks that the level crossing causes problems in Reigate - at other times the northbound queue only just reaches the London Road / Castlefield Road junction - 3tph probably only means the barriers going down once more between 7.30 and 9 than they do at the moment. The turn from Reigate Hill into Raglan Road causes almost as much delay as the level crossing.

On another North Downs matter, the December timetable now appears to be complete in the usual sources.

The foot crossing works are now complete hence 3tph can start.

The Surrey Mirror is sensationalist as it is looking for click bait as always but the crossing is main cause of delays on Reigate Hill along with the complex road junction including pedestrian crossing just north of the barriers that slows up dispersal after the crossing goes back up. Raglan Road and the petrol station are relatively minor issues.
 

infobleep

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The foot crossing works are now complete hence 3tph can start.

The Surrey Mirror is sensationalist as it is looking for click bait as always but the crossing is main cause of delays on Reigate Hill along with the complex road junction including pedestrian crossing just north of the barriers that slows up dispersal after the crossing goes back up. Raglan Road and the petrol station are relatively minor issues.
What did they do to fix the foot crossings?
 

tsr

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What did they do to fix the foot crossings?

They've been working on installing enforcement cameras at Buckland and Brockham automatic half-barrier crossings. Don't know about any measures at the foot crossings, but a number of them on that stretch of railway have fewer than 1 user per day, on average... so the increase in risk must be relatively low.

Certainly Dowdes and Church footpath crossings at Buckland are barely ever used (Church is accessed via a horrid lumpy field and Dowdes is on an indirect footpath which is plagued with annoying cattle).

The Bullsdown crossings have a few more users, but one was actually closed anyway for some time, as the steps were falling apart. I don't think many people complained about the closure, so you never know, a closure might be on the cards...

Betchworth LC has proved to be a bit of a hotspot for misuse lately. Not sure what might happen to improve it. However, it's a fully barriered crossing, so doesn't quite have the same risks as Buckland and Brockham.

Gomshall barrow crossing has obviously been replaced with a bridge.

There are a few more besides, but I've not heard of any works happening.
 
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