West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

Hadders said:
No source, it's a pure guess on my part. I can't see weekend catering being improved, if anything they'll downgrade it, in my view.

If other recent franchises are anything to go by they'll be strapped for cash from day 1 and need to make savings.

Given that First Class is generally near-empty at weekends I'd reckon on either reduced Weekend First prices or better-priced Advances. First is a bit better at yield management than Virgin. That will of course have to be funded from somewhere.

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MalaiseForever · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Given that First Class is generally near-empty at weekends I'd reckon on either reduced Weekend First prices or better-priced Advances. First is a bit better at yield management than Virgin. That will of course have to be funded from somewhere.

What trains have you been getting at the weekend? In my experience, first class on the weekend is much busier than the week!

urbophile · 11 Oct 2019

donald2007 said:
Terrible. On Trenitalia in First Class there is prosecco, nice meals. As much as you want to eat and drink. All within a cabin of I seem to recall 10 seats. Well, at least they will use the money from the franchise to keep the standards in Italy high .

My experience in Trenitalia first class must be untypical then. Nothing in the way of free refreshments. Which routes are you referring to?

EAD · 11 Oct 2019

David Emmott said:
My experience in Trenitalia first class must be untypical then. Nothing in the way of free refreshments. Which routes are you referring to?

Think there is a little confusion going on here between the Frecciarossa routes and class levels. There are welcome drinks etc in all but standard, while the Freciarossa 1000 executive class now in use is the one with only 10 seats. There are 4 levels on the 1000s (executive, business, premium and then standard). After that, you get into the Frecciaargento (2 class with welcome drink in premium) and then the Frecciabianca (nothing for free).

Other national long distance trains (Intercity) don't have any restaurant/bistro any more from memory.

EE Andy b1 · 11 Oct 2019

FT shall, within 12 months of the franchise start date, introduce a number of products and services on the onboard services to enhance the catering provision from London and Glasgow on a trial basis. These include the option to purchase food and beverage online before travelling or at the seat via the FT app, and collect these from the onboard shop, an at seat service for all customers.

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
FT shall, within 12 months of the franchise start date, introduce a number of products and services on the onboard services to enhance the catering provision from London and Glasgow on a trial basis. These include the option to purchase food and beverage online before travelling or at the seat via the FT app, and collect these from the onboard shop, an at seat service for all customers.

Collecting from a shop pre ordered is not a "at seat service "

RT4038 · 11 Oct 2019

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Collecting from a shop pre ordered is not a "at seat service "

I don't think you are reading it right (possibly because of a misspelling) .

EE Andy b1 said:
These include the option to purchase food and beverage online before travelling or at the seat via the FT app, and collect these from the onboard shop, an at seat service for all customers.

I think this means that you can purchase food and beverage online before travelling or at your seat, and collect these at the on board shop, and at seat service for all customers. This implies that the at seat service will be a trolley, but the stuff purchased on line will not be brought to you by the trolley - you'll have to fetch that yourself. Which I expect is a practical consideration that the trolley cannot be continuously going back to the shop to pickup orders.

EE Andy b1 · 11 Oct 2019

From the date of the proposed transfer, the new franchise will operate under a new entity, First Trenitalia West Coast Rail Limited (“FTWCR”).

Probably not the public name though!

EE Andy b1 · 11 Oct 2019

First Trenitalia intends to introduce a major timetable change in December 2022.

Bletchleyite · 12 Oct 2019

RT4038 said:
I don't think you are reading it right (possibly because of a misspelling) .

I think this means that you can purchase food and beverage online before travelling or at your seat, and collect these at the on board shop, and at seat service for all customers. This implies that the at seat service will be a trolley, but the stuff purchased on line will not be brought to you by the trolley - you'll have to fetch that yourself. Which I expect is a practical consideration that the trolley cannot be continuously going back to the shop to pickup orders.

Oddly they were doing the latter, taking orders on some kind of mobile device, on the 1350 MKC to Manchester yesterday.

krus_aragon · 12 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
First Trenitalia intends to introduce a major timetable change in December 2022.

Which is when TfW are introducing their new 3tph timetable along the North Wales Coast (and extra services down the Marches). Sounds like a good time for a recast.

pt_mad · 12 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
First Trenitalia intends to introduce a major timetable change in December 2022.

Well nobody could say that was rushed.
Maybe when the Voyager replacements are in service?

EE Andy b1 · 12 Oct 2019

pt_mad said:
Well nobody could say that was rushed.
Maybe when the Voyager replacements are in service?

Yes new Bi-mode units and proposed new depots for Drivers at Holyhead (April 2021) and Crewe (November 2021).

Edit: Holyhead April 2021.

Bungle965 · 12 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Given that First Class is generally near-empty at weekends I'd reckon on either reduced Weekend First prices or better-priced Advances. First is a bit better at yield management than Virgin. That will of course have to be funded from somewhere.

I can assure you that First is not quiet at weekends, it's as busy if not more so than weekdays. There obviously is some services which are dead, however for the most part 1st in the weekend is busy.
Sam

LNW-GW Joint · 12 Oct 2019

I see the FT website now says the replacement of Voyagers is because they are "outdated" rather than "unpopular" (which was its first pronouncement).
Pity for XC who will have to live with "outdated" trains a little longer.
It's rather like Christopher Garnett (GNER) calling them "nasty little trains".
They are none of these things.

krus_aragon · 12 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
I see the FT website now says the replacement of Voyagers is because they are "outdated" rather than "unpopular" (which was its first pronouncement).
Pity for XC who will have to live with "outdated" trains a little longer.
It's rather like Christopher Garnett (GNER) calling them "nasty little trains".
They are none of these things.

Well, you could make a good argument for them being "little"...

PartyOperator · 12 Oct 2019

The nastiness and outdatedness follow from the littleness. They'd be perfectly fine trains in the right place but sitting on the floor for long distances is always going to be a bit nasty. That happens far too regularly on XC trains.

Bungle965 · 12 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
I see the FT website now says the replacement of Voyagers is because they are "outdated" rather than "unpopular" (which was its first pronouncement).
Pity for XC who will have to live with "outdated" trains a little longer.
It's rather like Christopher Garnett (GNER) calling them "nasty little trains".
They are none of these things.

When they aren't incredibly busy/overcrowded/bogs smelling, then yes they are pleasant trains to travel on, unfortunately those things happen more often than not.
Sam

Kingham West · 12 Oct 2019

Bungle965 said:
When they aren't incredibly busy/overcrowded/bogs smelling, then yes they are pleasant trains to travel on, unfortunately those things happen more often than not.
Sam

They poison the well for Rail, leisure users make on journey, then often never return, if you travel through Oxford, it’s well below the standard,any reasonable person would expect.
Standing, rather unpleasant , no buffet it goes on , I suspect the market could do 50 per cent increase with more and better stock, don’t forget its a discretionary market, so far more Quality Responsive .

EE Andy b1 · 13 Oct 2019

West Coast Class 221s are in better condition all around than the XC 220/221s, that's for sure, far from perfect and in need of a good refurbish which is what there hopefully going to get but the best 125 mph Diesel units out there!

driver_m · 13 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
West Coast Class 221s are in better condition all around than the XC 220/221s, that's for sure, far from perfect and in need of a good refurbish which is what there hopefully going to get but the best 125 mph Diesel units out there!

Couldn’t agree more on the condition Andy. But even you’d probably still go an HST over a burger van surely!!!

EE Andy b1 · 13 Oct 2019

driver_m said:
Couldn’t agree more on the condition Andy. But even you’d probably still go an HST over a burger van surely!!!

Oh aye an HST any day but that's loco's (power cars) and stock so should of said Diesel Electric Multiple Unit.

AndrewE · 13 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
Oh aye an HST any day but that's loco's (power cars) and stock so should of said Diesel Electric Multiple Unit.

Don't start that one running again!

GoneSouth · 13 Oct 2019

krus_aragon said:
Well, you could make a good argument for them being "little"...

And they are definitely trains, which means the only debatable word in the statement is nasty. I’d say they are only nasty when they are rammed full and barely have enough standing room. Travel outside peak and they are fine, preferable to Pendolinos in fact which always feel claustrophobic. More comfortable seats than the IET too. My only problem with them is they spawned the idea that it’s ok for long distance trains to have a really bloody noisy diesel engine chucked underneath every seat!

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

GoneSouth said:
My only problem with them is they spawned the idea that it’s ok for long distance trains to have a really bloody noisy diesel engine chucked underneath every seat!

They're not even particularly noisy (though not as good as modern kit like 80x and CAF Civities in those terms). The reasons I think they've had their day is the inefficient interior layout (which is more than just the seat positions so can't just be fixed by reseating), the poorly-sized overhead luggage racks (which because of where things run in conduits would be very, very expensive to fix) and the fact that they kick out filthy stinking diesel fumes while running under OHLE.

They were a 1990s design which had their place in the 1990s and 2000s. In 2019, they need to go in the bin. That doesn't meant they are nasty (they certainly are little and trains) but does mean First Trenitalia are correct to get rid.

bionic · 14 Oct 2019

EE Andy b1 said:
Yes new Bi-mode units and proposed new depots for Drivers at Holyhead (June 2021) and Crewe (November 2021).

Sounds like a wise move. Its always struck me as odd that there were never Virgin depots in these locations anyway. Taxiing crews from Manchester, Liverpool, Preston etc seems a huge waste of resources. Crews based at Crewe could cover pretty much the entire VTWC network without the need for any taxis or unproductive travelling time which is why it seems mad there wasn't a booking on point there already. And as for taxiing people the length of North Wales...

Presumably though, depots like Liverpool and Manchester will lose work to accommodate these new depots unless a service uplift can cover it, or under the new operating model they lump them in with local and regional services. I've always thought it daft that two or three TOCs can have train staff on different conditions booking on in the same place. Where was this announcement about the depots made?

It would probably make sense to open a depot at Central Rivers too as I'm pretty certain that's all done with huge taxi mileage.

ainsworth74 · 14 Oct 2019

We don't need to do yet another round "Why I hate Voyagers". This thread is about the new West Coast Partnership franchise so lets stick to that rather than getting tangled down in the weeds.

Westcoast-ting · 14 Oct 2019

bionic said:
Sounds like a wise move. Its always struck me as odd that there were never Virgin depots in these locations anyway. Taxiing crews from Manchester, Liverpool, Preston etc seems a huge waste of resources. Crews based at Crewe could cover pretty much the entire VTWC network without the need for any taxis or unproductive travelling time which is why it seems mad there wasn't a booking on point there already. And as for taxiing people the length of North Wales...

Presumably though, depots like Liverpool and Manchester will lose work to accommodate these new depots unless a service uplift can cover it, or under the new operating model they lump them in with local and regional services. I've always thought it daft that two or three TOCs can have train staff on different conditions booking on in the same place. Where was this announcement about the depots made?

It would probably make sense to open a depot at Central Rivers too as I'm pretty certain that's all done with huge taxi mileage.

I guess this will make a big difference to all diagrams especially Glasgow and Edinburgh if they extend their route card.

driver_m · 14 Oct 2019

bionic said:
Sounds like a wise move. Its always struck me as odd that there were never Virgin depots in these locations anyway. Taxiing crews from Manchester, Liverpool, Preston etc seems a huge waste of resources. Crews based at Crewe could cover pretty much the entire VTWC network without the need for any taxis or unproductive travelling time which is why it seems mad there wasn't a booking on point there already. And as for taxiing people the length of North Wales...

Presumably though, depots like Liverpool and Manchester will lose work to accommodate these new depots unless a service uplift can cover it, or under the new operating model they lump them in with local and regional services. I've always thought it daft that two or three TOCs can have train staff on different conditions booking on in the same place. Where was this announcement about the depots made?

It would probably make sense to open a depot at Central Rivers too as I'm pretty certain that's all done with huge taxi mileage.

It would make no sense to open a Central Rivers depot as the work is fully covered by my colleagues from Wolves and the Voyagers are going anyway.

Secondly, ALL the middle depots are at risk with this Crewe depot, not just Liverpool and Manchester.

Westcoast-ting · 14 Oct 2019

driver_m said:
It would make no sense to open a Central Rivers depot as the work is fully covered by my colleagues from Wolves and the Voyagers are going anyway.

Secondly, ALL the middle depots are at risk with this Crewe depot, not just Liverpool and Manchester.

Has any pledge been made to keep oxley as a maintenance depot ?

last I was told was vt was paying an additional payment for Alston to keep a small amount of fitters as they practically closed the depot without consulting vt.

West Coast Partnership: Awarded to First Trenitalia

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