New train timetable starts 15 December - now is the time for bus companies to react

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

Back in May, there was a thread complaining that buses no longer connected with trains at certain ECML stations served by Thameslink.

It would make sense for bus timetables to be changed at the same time as train timetables. That happens in several other countries, such as the Netherlands, Belgium and Switzerland.

Leaving aside my memory of using regulated buses back in the 1970s being far worse than current, it really wouldn't be hard to liaise with the two bus companies involved. But then we are discussing a company who gives so little care for its customers that it got fined £5m for not being able to communicate.

GTR is still GoAhead, isn't it? Who are the two bus companies and is it in their interest to blame GoAhead for a while before retiming?

Go Whippet and Stagecoach.

It isn't that anyone is blaming anyone else. It appears to simply be that GTR hasn't bothered to make contact with the companies to let them know they have changed their timetables.

Even if GTR don't tell them anything, it is easy enough for the bus companies to look at the train timetables when they go online. They only need 42 days notice to change timetables so there is plenty of time. All companies should be doing this as a matter of routine every spring and autumn.

The train timetable changes in December are now available online. Is your local bus company going to bother to check whether times need to be adjusted accordingly? Now would be a good time.

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Megafuss · 12 Oct 2019

Bus operators will be starting to deal with Christmas schedules now. The time to "react" was weeks ago

Robertj21a · 12 Oct 2019

With up to 70 days notice required for changes to bus services it's hardly likely that they could now react, even if they had wanted to. The train timetable needs to be issued far earlier.

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
With up to 70 days notice required for changes to bus services it's hardly likely that they could now react, even if they had wanted to. The train timetable needs to be issued far earlier.

Why 70 days? Isn't the rule 42 days in England?

Robertj21a · 12 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
Why 70 days? Isn't the rule 42 days in England?

No. Minimum 42 maximum 70.

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

70 days before 15 December was 6 days ago, and many if not most train timetables were available before then.

Robertj21a · 12 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
70 days before 15 December was 6 days ago, and many if not most train timetables were available before then.

I should hope they were !

Just like ttain timetables, changes to bus timetables, rotas, staffing etc can take many weeks to sort out properly.
Did TOCs proactively explain their propsals in advance to the appropriate bus operators ?

Megafuss · 12 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
70 days before 15 December was 6 days ago, and many if not most train timetables were available before then.

As GTR was sighted in the original post, I've had a look on the Great Northern website, and I can't see any timetables from 15th December yet, unless I am looking in the wrong place

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

Megafuss said:
As GTR was sighted in the original post, I've had a look on the Great Northern website, and I can't see any timetables from 15th December yet, unless I am looking in the wrong place

No pdf timetables yet but bookings can be made. Third party sites are also useful, for example

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/basic/BIW/2019/12/15

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
Did TOCs proactively explain their propsals in advance to the appropriate bus operators ?

Ideally there should be a regular dialogue between all transport operators so that timetables can always be optimally timed. But the timetable change dates are not a secret and the more significant December one is even defined by an EU directive. Therefore it should be a simple matter for bus company bosses to look online at train times a few months before May and December each year.

Robertj21a · 12 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
Ideally there should be a regular dialogue between all transport operators so that timetables can always be optimally timed. But the timetable change dates are not a secret and the more significant December one is even defined by an EU directive. Therefore it should be a simple matter for bus company bosses to look online at train times a few months before May and December each year.

The TOC should be proactive, not expect everyone else to see what they are changing. Clearly, they also need to give much greater advance notice of what the detailed changes will be. Shouldn't they all be
in regular dialogue with bus operators ?

radamfi · 12 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
The TOC should be proactive, not expect everyone else to see what they are changing. Clearly, they also need to give much greater advance notice of what the detailed changes will be. Shouldn't they all be
in regular dialogue with bus operators ?

Ideally there should be a regular dialogue between all transport operators so that timetables can always be optimally timed.

cnjb8 · 12 Oct 2019

To be fair, Northern introduced more trains between Manchester and Buxton and High Peak withdrew the TransPeak between these destinations.
We all know that timetable change was a bit disastrous.

geoffk · 12 Oct 2019

Robertj21a said:
No. Minimum 42 maximum 70.

I thought it was still 56 days, shows how long I've been retired! Can't the Traffic Commissioner still give dispensation for a shorter period?

Robertj21a · 12 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
I thought it was still 56 days, shows how long I've been retired! Can't the Traffic Commissioner still give dispensation for a shorter period?

Yes, they can if the circumstances are urgent, but it can't be guaranteed. As I guess we all agree, it *should* be possible for all modes of transport to agree a co-ordinated plan.......

Eyersey468 · 12 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
I thought it was still 56 days, shows how long I've been retired! Can't the Traffic Commissioner still give dispensation for a shorter period?

In certain limited circumstances I believe it can be done quicker but I'm not certain what the short notice rules are

Megafuss · 12 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
I thought it was still 56 days, shows how long I've been retired! Can't the Traffic Commissioner still give dispensation for a shorter period?

Yes, at short notice to connect with Ferry or Rail services using a PSV350A. I believe in reality this is for services which are obviously timed to connect to trains/ferries (such as those in the Scottish Highlands) rather than services which so happen to pass rail stations/ports on a regular basis. But it is down to the TC to judge when it gets below 42 days anyway.

Eyersey468 · 12 Oct 2019

Just looked it up, the operator has to fill in a supplementary form to go with the application (PSV350A)

Harpers Tate · 12 Oct 2019

Hereabouts, we have a PTE that (is supposed to) oversee (etc) transport - and they singularly and repeatedly fail, utterly, to generate any sort of integration whether in services or (through) fares or anything else.

It isn't helped, of course, when the legal situation would see a bus operator sanctioned for out-of-time running, if they plan to await a late train so as to afford reliable connections.

Meole · 12 Oct 2019

The proposed reduction of services to English stations between Shrewsbury and Chester by TFW in order to concentrate on their core Welsh provision should provide opportunities for other transport operators.

RT4038 · 12 Oct 2019

Harpers Tate said:
Hereabouts, we have a PTE that (is supposed to) oversee (etc) transport - and they singularly and repeatedly fail, utterly, to generate any sort of integration whether in services or (through) fares or anything else.

It isn't helped, of course, when the legal situation would see a bus operator sanctioned for out-of-time running, if they plan to await a late train so as to afford reliable connections.

And therein lies the problem - in most cases the bus operator does not want to be delaying their buses for a minority of their passengers (who have come from a train) and upset their local passengers on this connecting journey and subsequent journeys that the bus may run late. Never mind a possible legal problem, it is just not good customer service.
The rail passenger will probably want some kind of cheap add-on ticket (plus bus or similar) which doesn't make them particularly valuable, apart from in fairly large quantities [not found in many places]
Not forgetting that for all this problem business, the rail industry will change timetables without much consultation or notice, mess about with special timetables for engineering works etc and expect the bus company to recast it's schedules (and connecting services nothing to do with trains, departure stand allocations etc etc) on the railway's whim.
For a commercial bus company ...... forget it!

carlberry · 12 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
Back in May, there was a thread complaining that buses no longer connected with trains at certain ECML stations served by Thameslink.

The train timetable changes in December are now available online. Is your local bus company going to bother to check whether times need to be adjusted accordingly? Now would be a good time.

I'm sure the train companies will have informed the bus companies as soon as they decided to make the changes! Whilst they were telling them they could have requested some timetables so they could provide them at train stations to help passengers.

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

cnjb8 said:
To be fair, Northern introduced more trains between Manchester and Buxton and High Peak withdrew the TransPeak between these destinations.
We all know that timetable change was a bit disastrous.

I think the Buxton line is one Northern’s success stories. Cancellations seem much rarer on this route than many of the others they try and operate.

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

Not aware of any bus rail integration in North Wales.

Virtually all buses in Llandudno Junction miss out the station turning circle, the alternative bus stop although only 100 yards away is not signposted from the railway station.

Similarly at Blaenau Ffestiniog no attempt to coordinate bus times from the station to Porthmadog or Dolgellau, and as for through tickets from Caernarfon onto the National Rail network at Bangor forget it!

There is North Wales Day Rover Ticket, which is actually quite a useful ticket, but virtually no one knows about it, including bus/rail staff!

Deerfold · 13 Oct 2019

cnjb8 said:
To be fair, Northern introduced more trains between Manchester and Buxton and High Peak withdrew the TransPeak between these destinations.
We all know that timetable change was a bit disastrous.

Unfortunately the connections between Transpeak and rail at Buxton were dreadful last time I connected there.

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

Deerfold said:
Unfortunately the connections between Transpeak and rail at Buxton were dreadful last time I connected there.

At least now that the trains are roughly half-hourly from Manchester to Buxton there are more options for connecting onto buses to Bakewell and Matlock, plus, of course TfGM Wayfarers are valid throughout.

Ianno87 · 13 Oct 2019

Deerfold said:
Unfortunately the connections between Transpeak and rail at Buxton were dreadful last time I connected there.

Llandudno said:
At least now that the trains are roughly half-hourly from Manchester to Buxton there are more options for connecting onto buses to Bakewell and Matlock, plus, of course TfGM Wayfarers are valid throughout.

Oh yes, I remember when they were both hourly, they inpressively used to run about the same time as each other so no chance of a reliable connection at Buxton...

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

Now that the TransPeak has been truncated to Buxton.
Wouldn’t it be a good idea if High Peak Buses and Northern Rail/EMR got there heads together and produced a composite Derby - Matlock - Bakewell - Buxton - Manchester timetable with through ticketing.

Not that anyone would travel end to end but encourage bus/rail travel to Bakewell etc.

New train timetable starts 15 December - now is the time for bus companies to react

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