• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Guardian article about redevelopment of Paris Nord

Status
Not open for further replies.

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
Far too long to quote in full, so I have just selected a few paragraphs. They like St Pancras (while acknowledging that it is small by comparison with Paris Nord) but personally I think Antwerp is a better example of increasing a station's capacity and updating it.
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...e-why-paris-went-sour-on-the-new-gare-du-nord says
As developers aim to turn France’s busiest train station into a gargantuan airport-style mall, Parisians fear for the local neighbourhood – and the station’s soul...

But top French architects and urban planners, including the award-winning Jean Nouvel, are leading a rebellion. In an open letter they slammed the plans as “unacceptable”, “indecent” and a “serious urban mistake”. Paris city hall, which is merely an observer of the project run by the state, has this month vociferously opposed the private commercial plans to add vast shopping space, pleading for it to scaled back.
much further on:
Paris city hall – which is not in charge of the project – has for a year pushed for changes from the sidelines, saying there wasn’t enough space for bikes, not enough thought about rail-users and too much commercial focus, that the project was ridiculously big just to enable a private firm to make money. But suddenly this month, Paris city hall under Socialist mayor Anne Hidalgo, toughened its stance, arguing the “needless” shopping complex should be scrapped and instead the state should fund a much smaller and simple refit. The government and the state railway insists the full project must go ahead if France’s image is to be upheld for the Olympics.

In his office at city hall, Paris’s head of urban planning, Jean-Louis Missika said: “A station is about creating a sense of airiness and emptiness, allowing passengers to calmly connect to this monumental public space, it is not about stuffing it full of obstacles for them.” He wanted a return to “the feeling that stations were the big industrial cathedrals of the 19th century” – with the addition, above all, of more space for bikes and connections to public transport.

At the Eurostar terminal, Florent, 24, a politics student on his way to visit his sister in London, looked out over bustle. “There’s too much privatisation of public space everywhere else already, stations should be for the passengers,” he said. “But I prefer St Pancras, it seems to have more of a link to history.”
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,040
Location
Airedale
If you read French, this rebuttal from the actual architects is worth looking it.
https://www.lepoint.fr/architecture...-auteur-du-projet-08-09-2019-2334291_3383.php

Basically, the plan is a large new departure hall on the East side with direct footbridge access to the platforms (like KGX, but outside the historic train shed), and a new or extended Eurostar departures on the West. I can't find decent plan views online). Having traversed the station twice recently from the RER exit to the ES escalators, it's not exactly easy, though not quite a rathole IMO.
 

Gag Halfrunt

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2019
Messages
577
One of the criticisms of the redevelopment plan is that passengers will be funnelled up, through the shopping mall and down again before they reach the platforms. It will be like an airport where you can't get to your departure gate without going past all the shops.
“This project is unacceptable and we demand a rethink from floor to rafters,” the protesting architects wrote in Le Monde, adding that it was indecent to send travellers up and down a mess of walkways, lifts and escalators, forcing them past shops to reach their platforms. They said that the vast volumes of the “beautiful” train hall would be “denatured” by adding high walkways. They warned of committing a “serious urban error” in the form of a giant shopping centre that risked killing smaller local trade in the Paris region.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,040
Location
Airedale
One of the criticisms of the redevelopment plan is that passengers will be funnelled up, through the shopping mall and down again before they reach the platforms. It will be like an airport where you can't get to your departure gate without going past all the shops.
Without sight of the internal plans, it's difficult to comment sensibly.
Google images seem to suggest a straightforward up-along-left-down route from the front of the station to the platforms. Obviously passing shops en route, but with the number of passengers using GdN, an IKEA-type winding route simply wouldn't work.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
Without sight of the internal plans, it's difficult to comment sensibly.
Google images seem to suggest a straightforward up-along-left-down route from the front of the station to the platforms. Obviously passing shops en route, but with the number of passengers using GdN, an IKEA-type winding route simply wouldn't work.
and certainly not a Manchester airport-type wriggle through the shops, which always annoys me. Grand Central Station in New York always looks good when I have seen it on TV. I liked the comment
“A station is about creating a sense of airiness and emptiness, allowing passengers to calmly connect to [their trains via] this monumental public space, it is not about stuffing it full of obstacles for them
and think that it sums up the 1960/70s Euston quite well.
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
and certainly not a Manchester airport-type wriggle through the shops, which always annoys me. Grand Central Station in New York always looks good when I have seen it on TV. I liked the comment and think that it sums up the 1960/70s Euston quite well.

I believe for most passengers, typically access to/from trains at Grand Central seldom actually involves passing through the main (and very grand) concourze.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,873
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
think that it sums up the 1960/70s Euston quite well.

To some extent even now, given the removal of the retail units that were causing a blockage. It's just dealing with one heck of a lot more people than it did in the 60s, and about 4-5 times as many trains, too. Truly a design for the future, even if it's hitting its limits now.
 

S-Car-Go

Member
Joined
19 Mar 2019
Messages
222
From what I know about the Eurostar side, they are getting rid of the taxi rank outside. That will become glassed in and covered to become a concourse. The departure lounge is to be expanded over the Eurostar platforms, with escalators down directly instead of present footbridge & escalators.
 

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
16,132
Location
0036
They will need somewhere to have French customs checks after Brexit.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
It's much needed - Gare du Nord is a nasty rathole.
I disagree, here's a picture from last week. There aren't many UK stations with as much light, as few diesels polluting the train shed or as good a view from a passenger area (admittedly this is from the Eurostar departure "lounge.") And you can go and sit on a platform and watch the trains in natural light while having a picnic.
Nord.jpg
 

Ianno87

Veteran Member
Joined
3 May 2015
Messages
15,215
I disagree, here's a picture from last week. There aren't many UK stations with as much light, as few diesels polluting the train shed or as good a view from a passenger area (admittedly this is from the Eurostar departure "lounge.") And you can go and sit on a platform and watch the trains in natural light while having a picnic.
View attachment 69347

The main concourse is fine (though not endowed with all that many facilities), the Eurostar lounge is far too small (bring fixed).

The streets around leave a fair amount to be desired.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
The main concourse is fine (though not endowed with all that many facilities), the Eurostar lounge is far too small (being fixed).
The streets around leave a fair amount to be desired.
I agree completely, but I think that is what the original article is saying. It's [only] just about managing with the current traffic as a transport hub, if shop deliveries and car-borne visitors add any more traffic then it will suffer terminal congestion.
 

leytongabriel

Member
Joined
27 Jan 2013
Messages
590
One of the criticisms of the redevelopment plan is that passengers will be funnelled up, through the shopping mall and down again before they reach the platforms. It will be like an airport where you can't get to your departure gate without going past all the shops.
Yes - as an ex-commuter through Gare St Lazare I can imagine. A smaller scheme I guess but the escalators to/from the metro and RER lead tediously through the shopping mall and you have to take three of them to get down to the bottom level. This 'fabulous new station' didn't even have anything done to the train shed which is still a dirty and rusting hulk behind the station building. Making it crystal clear that this was nothing to do with improvements for passengers.
 

Wychwood93

Member
Joined
25 Jan 2018
Messages
640
Location
Burton. Dorset.
An interesting point from:

https://ressources.data.sncf.com/ex...s/table/?sort=totalvoyageurs2017&q=paris+nord

This covers both 2016 and 2017.

We are looking at, for 2017, some 220m + passengers through the four categories listed - Transmanche (E*), Paris Nord, surface Banlieue(suburban) and souterrain (underground). I have only noted this split into four since 2016 - perhaps SNCF, and others, identifying what really needs to be done to redevelop/update etc. Gare du Nord. I like the station as it is - but...….. where do I start? Too much clutter, too many 'dark corners', too many 'dodgy' people about (you only have to look), too many 'working girls' (associated with the dodgies perhaps). Just a general unsavoury feel to it - you get to the E* level and realise that it is not too much better (no working girls though! and the dodgies are probably just staff and/or border control). More than a little like Brussels Midi. Gare de Lyon more savoury than both, but still a tad rough. Ditto Barcelona Sants. As stations I like them all in their own ways - it is just the stuff that, sadly, goes with them. Reminder to self - 'drifting very much off topic' - apologies.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,097
No, none of those are French customs checks for arriving in France.
but you do currently go past a French customs desk on the way out[of Paris N] even if it is not staffed. I don't know how they will cope with inbound pax as it's currently just a walk off the platform end. Maybe they will do it in London.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top