Rail Travel in Early Victorian England

les101975jud · 11 Oct 2019

Hello
I am new to this forum and would like to ask a question.

A friend who knows of my love of railways has asked me the following question. In 1850 Queen Victoria opened the station in Newcastle Upon Tyne. Was it possible in this year to travel directly to London by train? The present Kings Cross Station was not opened until 1852 but I believe there was a temporary terminus close by at Maiden Lane. However, Newcastle was built as part of the York, Newcastle and Berwick Railway. So my gut feeling is a change at York would have been required to catch a Great Northern Railway train for the rest of the journey to London. Would this be correct or were there already through trains to London in 1850? My friend has already found out that Thomas Cook organised through trains to London for the Great Exhibition in 1851 but perhaps this was a one off special arrangement. The other issue regards ticketing. Was it possible at this time to buy one ticket for a through journey or would a traveller have to purchase tickets from the different railway companies? If anyone can throw my light on this I would be most grateful. Lastly, would anyone be able to tell me the cost of a single journey from Newcastle to London for each of the three classes in 1850 that would be fantastic.

Regards Les

RailUK Forums

krus_aragon · 11 Oct 2019

Jack Simmons' "The Railway in England and Wales 1830-1914" has a great fold-out map at the back that shows when lines were opened.

Following the category "lines opened before 1845" , one could make their way to Gateshead from Euston via Watford, Wolverton, Rugby, Coventry, Solihull/Birmingham, Tamworth, Borton, Derby, Chesterfield, Rotherham, Wakefield, York, Darlington and Durham.

edwin_m · 11 Oct 2019

krus_aragon said:
Jack Simmons' "The Railway in England and Wales 1830-1914" has a great fold-out map at the back that shows when lines were opened.

Following the category "lines opened before 1845" , one could make their way to Gateshead from Euston via Watford, Wolverton, Rugby, Coventry, Solihull/Birmingham, Tamworth, Borton, Derby, Chesterfield, Rotherham, Wakefield, York, Darlington and Durham.

According to Wikipedia (usual caveat): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Coast_Joint_Stock

The GNR, NER and NBR, together with the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway and the Scottish Central Railway, which between them owned the railway lines connecting London (King's Cross) and Perth via York, Edinburgh (Waverley) and Stirling came to an agreement in November 1855 regarding "the East Coast Route" and how the traffic over that route was to be obtained and shared. At first, the carriages used for the through services were provided by the different companies, but in 1860 representatives of the GNR, NER and NBR met to agree the setting up of "a common East Coast stock of passenger carriages", which was finalised in August–September 1860.

From this it appears there were through services before 1860 but it's not clear when they started. Before the opening of Central station and the nearby High Level Bridge I don't think there was any sensible through route from the south to Newcastle and beyond via the East Coast. There may have been through services between London and Gateshead by the convoluted route mentioned above, which was progressively shortened by new construction but only became today's route with the Selby Diversion in 1983.

DerekC · 11 Oct 2019

Queen Victoria's journey is mentioned in Patrick Kingston's Royal Trains. Unfortunately no route details are given. It just says:

In August, 1850, during a journey on the East Coast Route from London to Edinburgh, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert attended ceremonies to celebrate the opening of Newcastle Central station and the completion of the Royal Border Bridge ….

F.G Cockman's Railways of Hertfordshire says:

The (GNR) Board had decided to attract more revenue by going to Peterborough and then through Boston, Lincoln and Retford to Doncaster ,,,,, at first the GNR trains ran to Askern Junction where they used (L&Y metals) to Knottingley and so over the York & North Midland to York ..

Other sources suggest that this route was opened in 1848 and that the direct route via Grantham wasn't opened until 1852.

Railways of Hertfordshire also says:

A special train left Maiden Lane for Peterborough on 5 August 1850 and regular services started two days later...

So Queen Vic's trip sounds as though it was a publicity exercise to celebrate the opening of some kind of East Coast Route, albeit via the Lincolnshire Loop Line and she may well have left from Maiden Lane. Does the OP have an exact date for the ceremony in Newcastle?

les101975jud · 11 Oct 2019

Thank you for the replies so far.

DerekC - it seems Queen Victoria opened the Station 29th August 1850.

Regards Les

etr221 · 11 Oct 2019

Originally the only route north from London was from Euston, via the London & Birmingham; by 1840 it was possible to travel to York - via what became the Midland, using various companies under the control of George Hudson, and then in 1844 on to Gateshead; with temporary bridge across the Tyne in 1848, and the High Level Bridge in 1849 (and the Central Station the following year). After the formation of the Railway Clearing House in 1842, I imagine through tickets were available.
The Great Northern - bitter enemy of the Hudson empire - opened its Lincolnshire loop line in 1848, with line south to London (Maiden Lane) in early August 1850, giving a second route to York. The direct 'towns' line followed in 1852, along with the extension into King's Cross. Quite how long it took the GN to come to be the 'normal' route to York and beyond I don't know - whether this was in 1850, or not until 1852.
Edited to add that the GN received a royal seal approval in 1851, when used by the Queen and Prince Albert.

Bevan Price · 11 Oct 2019

I think the most likely route in 1850 would be Euston - Rugby - Leicester - Derby - Chesterfield - Rotherham - Normanton - York - Newcastle.

DerekC · 11 Oct 2019

Well, it turns out that Queen Victoria's memoirs are available online and @Bevan Price is right - she says of this journey:

(27 Aug 1850) … we drove to Euston station & entered the train, Ly Douro, Miss Lennox, Sir G. Grey, Cols: Phipps & Gordon going with us, the 2 eldest Children in our saloon, & very good. We stopped at Walanton, where we got out to have some broth, & then again at Derby, Ecklinton, Normanton, York, after which we were put upon another line & taken 10 miles to Castle Howard station

(29 Aug 1850)- t 20m. to 10 we left the house & took the railroad at Castle Howard station, to which Ld Carlisle, his sister Mary, & nieces, had accompanied us. Such quantities of horsemen & horsewomen rode with us. The 2 eldest Children, again went with us. We stopped first at Darlington, & at 1 o'clock at Newcastle, where we got out at the magnificent new station. Here there was an immense assemblage of people, Military, & Band, — a very fine sight. After taking a little food, we resumed our journey. Ld Grey had joined us at New Castle. We passed Morpeth, Werkworth, & saw Werkworth Castle in the distance. The railroad goes close along the sea, which was beautifully blue. Holy Island (Lindisfarn) was plainly to be seen. We stopped at Alnwick station, & a little after 3, reached Berwick, where we got out & inaugurated the beautiful new bridge, similar to the one at New Castle. Thousands of spectators were assembled & Addresses were presented by the Mayor. Ld Grey took leave us here. — We stopped next at Dunbar, where another Address was presented, & at 5 we arrived at Edinburgh

Cowley · 11 Oct 2019

DerekC said:
Well, it turns out that Queen Victoria's memoirs are available online and @Bevan Price is right - she says of this journey:

Very interesting. Reading that really gets the imagination going, especially the opening of the bridge.

DerekC · 12 Oct 2019

I was trying to work out where "Walanton" (the first stop, between Euston and Derby) was - I think it's a misreading of Wolverton, which would make sense geographically. I was also wondering what average speed they could achieve in 1850. The royal party went a long way that day - I didn't quote the first part, but the royal party left Osborne (IoW) at 7AM, crossed the Solent, went (I assume by train) to Esher where they arrived at 10AM, drove to Claremont to give support to the Queen of France (the King had just died there), back to Esher, on to London, then to Euston, York and Castle Howard by the route outlined above, arriving at Castle Howard at 6:30PM. They couldn't have left Euston until about 1PM, which would make Euston to Castle Howard in 5h30m for about 230 miles - a pretty impressive average 42 mph including stops!

trebor79 · 12 Oct 2019

Did Queen Victoria stipulate that any train she travelled on was not to exceed a certain speed? Was it 30mph?

LNW-GW Joint · 12 Oct 2019

So she didn't use GN metals at all.
LNWR to Rugby, Midland to Normanton (Altofts Jn), then the Y&NM to York and the YN&B to Berwick, finally the North British to Edinburgh.
Pretty much a Stephenson railway (father and son) to Berwick.
At the time, the GN was a roundabout affair via Lincoln to "a muddy field near Doncaster" (Shaftholme Jn), then via the L&Y to Knottingley and Y&NM to York.
The first through GN service from Maiden Lane to York via this route was on 8 August 1850.
The extension of the route (by the NER) directly from Shaftholme Jn to York via Selby was not opened until 1871.

Shaftholme Jn was a key point in GN/NER/L&Y history and remains so today.

DerekC · 12 Oct 2019

trebor79 said:
Did Queen Victoria stipulate that any train she travelled on was not to exceed a certain speed? Was it 30mph?

According to Royal Trains (see above) no train the Queen was travelling on was permitted to exceed 40mph, or 30mph after dark - but she got much fussier later in life, after Albert died in 1861, so in 1850 the speed restriction may have been higher!

mailbyrail · 12 Oct 2019

I've dug out my undated reprint of the March 1850 Bradshaw timetable
It shows a journey of 8 hrs 25mins with surprisingly few stops. Obviously not the timings of the Royal train
The train only conveyed first class carriages calling at the following stations

d 09.00 London Euston
d 10.00 Leighton
d 10.35 Blisworth

a 11.10 Rugby
d 11.15 Rugby

d 11.45 Leicester
d 12.10 Kegworth
a 12.30 Derby
d 12.35 Derby
a 13.30 Masbro Rotherham
a 14.10 Normanton
d 15.05 York
d 16.15 Darlington
a 16.33 Durham
d 16.55 Durham
a 17.25 Newcastle

The 1st class fare was £2/18/6 from the following stated fares:
18/6 London- Rugby
17/6 Rugby - Normanton
6/- Normanton - York
16/6 York - Newcastle

For 2nd class passengers, the journey started at 06.15 to arrive Newcastle 21.00, total price £2/0/6
3rd class took even longer

etr221 · 12 Oct 2019

Her 1851 journey on the Great Northern was on Wednesday 27th August - see http://www.queenvictoriasjournals.o...s&ItemID=qvj06836&volumeType=PSBEA#transcript , from Buckingham Palace at half past one to the GN station at Islington, before journeying, with stops for presentations at Peterborough, Boston and Lincoln, to Doncaster arriving half past six. She went on to Edinburgh the following day.

mailbyrail · 12 Oct 2019

For comparison, the single fares increased for inflation were £387 1st class and £270 2nd class at today's prices
Makes today's anytime singles at £250 (1st) and £165 (standard) seem more reasonable, particularly with the multitude of advance fares available

swt_passenger · 12 Oct 2019

DerekC said:
Well, it turns out that Queen Victoria's memoirs are available online and @Bevan Price is right - she says of this journey:

Interesting that it says she stopped at “Alnwick”, as that’s on a branch. Did they really take the branch and reverse? Is it possible the 1850 station on the mainline, which I think was just a bit north of the Aln viaduct, wasn’t named for Alnmouth or Bilton, but for Alnwick as well?

ah, Disused Stations reckons it was “Lesbury, Alnwick“ in timetables of the time, which closed after Alnmouth (at Bilton Junction) opened with the Alnwick branch.

edwin_m · 12 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
At the time, the GN was a roundabout affair via Lincoln to "a muddy field near Doncaster" (Shaftholme Jn), then via the L&Y to Knottingley and Y&NM to York.
The first through GN service from Maiden Lane to York via this route was on 8 August 1850.
The extension of the route (by the NER) directly from Shaftholme Jn to York via Selby was not opened until 1871.

Shaftholme Jn was a key point in GN/NER/L&Y history and remains so today.

Although the Selby line diverged from the original route at Shaftholme, I believe the end-to-end connection of the GNR with the LYR was a short distance to the north and known as Askern Junction. The only other place I can think of where ownership changed with no physical junction or station was from the Midland to the M&GN where it crossed the ECML at Little Bytham, in anticipation of a connecting curve that the GN never built. Was the choice of Askern for the boundary because, even then, the GNR was thinking of a shorter route to York using mainly its own metals?

etr221 · 12 Oct 2019

The GN originally proposed to go further, in its authorisation Bill (to York and Wakefield), but the railway politics of the day got in the way...

Perhaps the classic case of change of ownership in the middle of nowhere was County Boundary Junction, where the Caledonian in Lanarkshire met the GSWR in Ayrshire.

Taunton · 15 Oct 2019

etr221 said:
Perhaps the classic case of change of ownership in the middle of nowhere was County Boundary Junction, where the Caledonian in Lanarkshire met the GSWR in Ayrshire.

Isn't there one nowadays, between London Underground and NR, about a mile north of Amersham, on the Aylesbury line?

edwin_m · 15 Oct 2019

Taunton said:
Isn't there one nowadays, between London Underground and NR, about a mile north of Amersham, on the Aylesbury line?

On the modern railway boundaries between administrative regions/zones/routes and with non-NR operators are nearly always positioned on simple bits of plain line. They are usually also the boundaries of control between signaling centres, so that each centre is under a single administration, and these are normally put where each centre can regulate service in its own area with minimum need to interact with the other one. Sometimes the signaling centre is designed to control up to a pre-existing boundary and sometimes the boundary is set to match the limit of control of a pre-existing or planned signaling centre.

Historically it was very different, as a railway company would build an entirely new line and if it joined with a different company the boundary would be at or very close to the new junction thus formed.

Rail Travel in Early Victorian England

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