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Petition for Manchester Piccadilly platforms 15 & 16

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Bantamzen

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Well my own perception of a Manc-Bahn involves simply stopping all the nearly-empty long distance trains going to the airport at all the intermediate stations.....

People dragging bags to the airport get their one-seat journey whilst we get a de-facto tube line through South Manchester, which drastically eases public transport provision on the congested roads of the area.

The nearly empty units? I know the back-of-cigarette-packet-calculations done by other forum members have installed this myth into forum perception, but I'll tell you from my two very recent journeys to and from the airport that the 185s I travelled on were far from empty between the airport and central Manchester. And given that Manchester Airport is planning an increase of traffic by up to 40% (a fact often ignored here), I'd say those "near empty" units are going to be nothing of the sort going forward too. What I did notice though is the rather sad looking, empty platforms along the way.

I am however fascinated as to why the Styal Line is held in such high esteem by the forum membership. Is there a particular reason why this, above so many other lines in the region deserves such a high frequency, high capacity that a Manc-Bahn style service would offer? And is there a reason why a modest expansion of Manchester's already wide-spread tram network couldn't offer a more desirable alternative?
 
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HSTEd

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The nearly empty units? I know the back-of-cigarette-packet-calculations done by other forum members have installed this myth into forum perception, but I'll tell you from my two very recent journeys to and from the airport that the 185s I travelled on were far from empty between the airport and central Manchester.
I have a good view of the Castlefield Corridor from my office tea room, and I have often seen processions of various units proceeding to the airport with very few people on them.
And given that Manchester Airport is planning an increase of traffic by up to 40% (a fact often ignored here), I'd say those "near empty" units are going to be nothing of the sort going forward too.
Well given that the length of the trains is still far short of the limit imposed by the route's platforms.... we should easily be able to swallow the increase in patronage.
What I did notice though is the rather sad looking, empty platforms along the way.
They are only empty because of a near useless half hourly service.
Need at least four an hour, and it would be much more practical to simply stop everything at that point to avoid reducing route capacity.

I am however fascinated as to why the Styal Line is held in such high esteem by the forum membership. Is there a particular reason why this, above so many other lines in the region deserves such a high frequency, high capacity that a Manc-Bahn style service would offer?
It's easy to implement as there are lots of relatively lightly loaded, or at least short, trains running through the corridor, with a clientele that is unlikely to care about a few minutes being added to their journey to the airport. And it runs parallel to one of the busiest bus corridors in Europe.
And is there a reason why a modest expansion of Manchester's already wide-spread tram network couldn't offer a more desirable alternative?
Try and engineer a Styal Line corridor tramway.... I'll wait.
There is no practical alternative to the railway.
 

Altfish

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I have a good view of the Castlefield Corridor from my office tea room, and I have often seen processions of various units proceeding to the airport with very few people on them.
I stand to be corrected; but isn't the Castlefield Corridor after/before Oxford Road and Piccadilly - so are you saying that there is "a procession of various units proceeding to the airport with very few people on them" going to/from Piccadilly and Oxford Road?
 

HSTEd

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I stand to be corrected; but isn't the Castlefield Corridor after/before Oxford Road and Piccadilly - so are you saying that there is "a procession of various units proceeding to the airport with very few people on them" going to/from Piccadilly and Oxford Road?

Some trains through the corridor are crush loaded.
Others are not.
 

Ianno87

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The nearly empty units? I know the back-of-cigarette-packet-calculations done by other forum members have installed this myth into forum perception, but I'll tell you from my two very recent journeys to and from the airport that the 185s I travelled on were far from empty between the airport and central Manchester. And given that Manchester Airport is planning an increase of traffic by up to 40% (a fact often ignored here), I'd say those "near empty" units are going to be nothing of the sort going forward too. What I did notice though is the rather sad looking, empty platforms along the way.

I am however fascinated as to why the Styal Line is held in such high esteem by the forum membership. Is there a particular reason why this, above so many other lines in the region deserves such a high frequency, high capacity that a Manc-Bahn style service would offer? And is there a reason why a modest expansion of Manchester's already wide-spread tram network couldn't offer a more desirable alternative?

Metrolink seems to work best in the Manchester equivalent of the Zones 2 and 3 area. - around the inner suburbs but within (roughly) the M60 motorway....i.e. the area not trenendously well served by the railway anyway.

Any further out, and Metrolink struggles to compete with the railway journey time (e.g. Manchester Airport and Ashton)
 

Bantamzen

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I have a good view of the Castlefield Corridor from my office tea room, and I have often seen processions of various units proceeding to the airport with very few people on them.

Well the passenger numbers don't match your observations, the airport shows over million passenger entry / exits, twice as much as the other stations combined.

Well given that the length of the trains is still far short of the limit imposed by the route's platforms.... we should easily be able to swallow the increase in patronage.

The increase in in traffic will generally be covered by the increase in capacity, assuming of course that the percentage of airport users to train use remains the same.

They are only empty because of a near useless half hourly service.
Need at least four an hour, and it would be much more practical to simply stop everything at that point to avoid reducing route capacity.

Whilst it may be practical to stop at some, increasing numbers of airport passengers mingling with commuter traffic is only going to increase dwell times, making all stopping less attractive.

It's easy to implement as there are lots of relatively lightly loaded, or at least short, trains running through the corridor, with a clientele that is unlikely to care about a few minutes being added to their journey to the airport. And it runs parallel to one of the busiest bus corridors in Europe.

Try and engineer a Styal Line corridor tramway.... I'll wait.
There is no practical alternative to the railway.

Well you solved your own problem right there, stick a tramway on the bus corridor and vastly increase capacity / connectivity etc. You're welcome!!! ;)
 

urbophile

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The nearly empty units? I know the back-of-cigarette-packet-calculations done by other forum members have installed this myth into forum perception, but I'll tell you from my two very recent journeys to and from the airport that the 185s I travelled on were far from empty between the airport and central Manchester.

Every time I have taken a train to Manchester airport (from Liverpool) it has virtually emptied out at Oxford Road and Piccadilly and only a handful of passengers join it. The overall picture may be different but bearing in mind the vast numbers of airport users it seems only a small minority come by train.
 

HSTEd

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Well the passenger numbers don't match your observations, the airport shows over million passenger entry / exits, twice as much as the other stations combined.
The stations that are not provided with an actually useful service?

This is like saying the North London Line was worthless because it had tiny passenger numbers in the Silverlink days.

EDIT: The 17-18 statistics suggest that the true number of entries and exits is about 4.6 million, not 1 million.
That isn't that impressive given the shear number of trains that go there.
That is only about 12,700 per day, in both directions.
So 6,350 in each direction.

For several trians per hour running most hours of the day, that implies well below 100 passengers on the average train.

The increase in in traffic will generally be covered by the increase in capacity, assuming of course that the percentage of airport users to train use remains the same.
So the trains will remain relatively lightly loaded, as they are now?
Whilst it may be practical to stop at some, increasing numbers of airport passengers mingling with commuter traffic is only going to increase dwell times, making all stopping less attractive.
What?
Most of the airport passengers will already been in their seats by the time they arrive at Central Manchester stations, people getting on and off and largely being in the vestibules of the units (which on things like Class 185s are truly huge) will make absolutely no difference to dwell times.

Well you solved your own problem right there, stick a tramway on the bus corridor and vastly increase capacity / connectivity etc. You're welcome!!! ;)
And how many hundreds of millions of pounds do you have for that?

Extending the journeys of a relatively small number of passengers by between eight and five minutes for a revolutionary change in south manchester transport is hardly a bad deal.
 
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Bantamzen

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Every time I have taken a train to Manchester airport (from Liverpool) it has virtually emptied out at Oxford Road and Piccadilly and only a handful of passengers join it. The overall picture may be different but bearing in mind the vast numbers of airport users it seems only a small minority come by train.

Well it certainly hasn't been true of recent journeys I have made from Yorkshire, travelling directly to the airport or changing at Piccadilly. And seeing the 'MAN' tags on suitcases in trains heading east over the Pennines is a very common sight.

The stations that are not provided with an actually useful service?

A half hourly service not useful? Sorry but for many parts that is a very common pattern, try travelling down the Aire Valley to Leeds some time, with the exception of a couple of extras in the high peaks that is the usual service no matter how busy the train.

EDIT: The 17-18 statistics suggest that the true number of entries and exits is about 4.6 million, not 1 million.
That isn't that impressive given the shear number of trains that go there.
That is only about 12,700 per day, in both directions.
So 6,350 in each direction.

For several trians per hour running most hours of the day, that implies well below 100 passengers on the average train.

Now compare that figure with the 1999/2000 (1.835 million), or even more recently 2014/2015 (3.460 million). Then consider that potentially an additional 40% could be using the services in the next two to three years. Clearly there is growth in the flows, and clearly there will be more to come.

So the trains will remain relatively lightly loaded, as they are now?

Well if we base the evidence on you occasionally looking out of the tearoom window.... However that really isn't much an accurate way to measure it.

What?
Most of the airport passengers will already been in their seats by the time they arrive at Central Manchester stations, people getting on and off and largely being in the vestibules of the units (which on things like Class 185s are truly huge) will make absolutely no difference to dwell times.

Just as an example, on my last return on Thursday there were bags in all the luggage racks, in the vestibules, in the corridors as we pulled away. At Piccadilly, Oxford Road & Victoria people were clambering over said bags slowing the whole job down. So I'm sorry but making these all shacks south of Piccadilly will have an impact.

And how many hundreds of millions of pounds do you have for that?

I don't have any, but Manchester does. Not that you'd know it from the incessant wailing from Mancunians. Seriously, try commuting elsewhere for any length of time and tell me that Manchester has it worse. You've got an ideal corridor to have a fast tram route into the centre from the south central suburbs, which could run at high frequency benefiting far more people than a handful of stations could. You've got a high profile mayor constantly wanting more, and you've got money flowing in. Frankly I am amazed this is even a point of contention.

Extending the journeys of a relatively small number of passengers by between eight and five minutes for a revolutionary change in south manchester transport is hardly a bad deal.

Four and a half million a "relatively small number"? A number that dwarfs the number using the rest of the line substantially, yet these stations need S-Bahn capacities? Again, I struggle to understand what is so much more important about this small section of line than so of many others, especially given that for some of the areas there are more than the single line to use, and as you yourself admit one of the busiest bus corridors in Europe. But the Styal Line needs more? Hmmm.

And just to clarify, I would not begrudge Manchester's network expanding further. However Greater Manchester benefits greatly from the airport it owns, with more than 30 million paying punters passing through annually, which will grow to 50 million. The airport generates over 22,000 jobs, gives the city greater exposure, attracts new business, and even sees the Beeb moving some of it's big operations up there as a result. And yet time & again people wanting to use said airport are either berated or told they shouldn't have quick access from other parts of the North because Manchester's commuters want an S-Bahn operation where one simply won't fit, not unless a new cross city alignment is ever built. And that will cost a hell of a lot more than a tramway down the A34...
 

HSTEd

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Well it certainly hasn't been true of recent journeys I have made from Yorkshire, travelling directly to the airport or changing at Piccadilly. And seeing the 'MAN' tags on suitcases in trains heading east over the Pennines is a very common sight.
And how many suitcases do you see on each train?
100?
The seating capacity of even a 3 coach 185 is on order of 180.
And that is with all the standing room.

The seating capacity of one of the Northern trains is much greater.

A half hourly service not useful? Sorry but for many parts that is a very common pattern, try travelling down the Aire Valley to Leeds some time, with the exception of a couple of extras in the high peaks that is the usual service no matter how busy the train.
The Aire Valley is not run through a completely built up and urbanised corridor is it?
Would half hourly be suitable on the Victoria Line?
Or the inner sections of Merseyrail?

And are there five to nine trains per hour running through the stations on the Aire Valley with plenty of additional space?
Urban railways need much higher than half hourly frequency to be attractive.
Now compare that figure with the 1999/2000 (1.835 million), or even more recently 2014/2015 (3.460 million). Then consider that potentially an additional 40% could be using the services in the next two to three years. Clearly there is growth in the flows, and clearly there will be more to come.
Then consider that almost all the trains on that corridor are well under 100m length.
There is no capacity shortage on the line at all.
Well if we base the evidence on you occasionally looking out of the tearoom window.... However that really isn't much an accurate way to measure it.
Even the passenger stats show low loadings on the trains to the airport.
There nine trains per hour to the airport from Picadilly, which means that the 6350 people travelling to the airport are spread over at least 100 trains, and probably many more.
So on average something like 60 people per train.

When even a Class 185 has a seating capacity of 180, that is nothing


I don't have any, but Manchester does. Not that you'd know it from the incessant wailing from Mancunians. Seriously, try commuting elsewhere for any length of time and tell me that Manchester has it worse. You've got an ideal corridor to have a fast tram route into the centre from the south central suburbs, which could run at high frequency benefiting far more people than a handful of stations could. You've got a high profile mayor constantly wanting more, and you've got money flowing in. Frankly I am amazed this is even a point of contention.
It's not ideal without substantial amounts of tunnelling.
Having 80% of a good corridor does not mean that the corridor is cheap, the last 20% is nightmarish.
I've been trying to spec reasonable solutions for years and I still can't come up with anything that would ever get funded.

Four and a half million a "relatively small number"?
It is for a station receiving the shear number of trains that Manchester Airport is given, yes.
A number that dwarfs the number using the rest of the line substantially, yet these stations need S-Bahn capacities? Again, I struggle to understand what is so much more important about this small section of line than so of many others, especially given that for some of the areas there are more than the single line to use, and as you yourself admit one of the busiest bus corridors in Europe. But the Styal Line needs more? Hmmm.
Because where else is there a line full of a succession of very lightly loaded trains running through already existing stations that could handle a large fraction of the demand?

EDIT:

Realtime trains puts it at 134 trains starting at the Airport in a given 24 hour period.
6350/134 gives us an average occupancy of 47.....

40% increase in passenger numbers takes us to a total of 65.....
And that assumes that none of the passengers travel to the airport on Northern trains to Crewe..... so it's actually lower than that.

(310 calls in a 24 hour period, so 155 trains total. Which is an average of 41/57)
 
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Bantamzen

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And how many suitcases do you see on each train?
100?
The seating capacity of even a 3 coach 185 is on order of 180.
And that is with all the standing room.

The seating capacity of one of the Northern trains is much greater.

I've been on 185s leaving Leeds with dozens of suitcases literally clogging up every available space not occupied by someone standing.

The Aire Valley is not run through a completely built up and urbanised corridor is it?
Would half hourly be suitable on the Victoria Line?
Or the inner sections of Merseyrail?

Er yes it is rapidly becoming one, with larger stations acting as railheads.

And are there five to nine trains per hour running through the stations on the Aire Valley with plenty of additional space?
Urban railways need much higher than half hourly frequency to be attractive.

Only if you have the capacity. The Styal Line now caters for long distance traffic for the airport. And given the value that brings to the area it is always going to make them a priority.

Even the passenger stats show low loadings on the trains to the airport.
There nine trains per hour to the airport from Picadilly, which means that the 6350 people travelling to the airport are spread over at least 100 trains, and probably many more.
So on average something like 60 people per train.

When even a Class 185 has a seating capacity of 180, that is nothing

OK then, if the airport stats are nothing, what does that say for the intermediate stations? Clearly 4tph or higher would be overkill, would you agree? (I know you won't of course)

It's not ideal without substantial amounts of tunnelling.
Having 80% of a good corridor does not mean that the corridor is cheap, the last 20% is nightmarish.
I've been trying to spec reasonable solutions for years and I still can't come up with anything that would ever get funded.

Then I'm afraid it's the bus or a half hourly train. Still considerably more than many places screaming out for greater capacity.

It is for a station receiving the shear number of trains that Manchester Airport is given, yes.

The sheer number is as much an operational issue which precious little capacity for terminating services through the Castlefield corridor. Perhaps some Northern services should be re-routed through Victoria to terminate at Rochdale or Stalybridge?

Because where else is there a line full of a succession of very lightly loaded trains running through already existing stations that could handle a large fraction of the demand?

But if there is too much capacity for the airport, then 8 or 9 trains per hour stopping at all shacks would be even less productive, and a massive overkill. I can't imagine a TOC like TPE ever agreeing to something like this when the real profit is in getting longer distance punters to the airport.

Anyway, we aren't going to agree on this matter, and the mods are probably poised to ask us to return to topic. So we may have to agree to disagree at least on this thread.
 

HSTEd

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I've been on 185s leaving Leeds with dozens of suitcases literally clogging up every available space not occupied by someone standing.
The condition of the train at Leeds isn't really that important.
Lots of people take huge suitcases on the train to Central Manchester, not to the Airport.

Er yes it is rapidly becoming one, with larger stations acting as railheads.
I meant that in terms of being completely built up along the entire length of the line.
You don't really hit fields near the line on the way to the Airport until you are right on top of it.
This isn't really true on the Airedale line, which is still a series of towns on a string, not a continuous urban area.
Only if you have the capacity. The Styal Line now caters for long distance traffic for the airport. And given the value that brings to the area it is always going to make them a priority.
The capacity is already there.
Stopping every train on the way to the airport adds something like 45-70 minutes time per hour.
Which means that you probably need two or three additional units, obviously distributed across a rejigged set of diagrams.

But the capacity uplift in terms of carriages is not actually that large, since its a lot of trains taking a little extra time.
With interworking you can get pretty high utilisation of the extra stock thanks to the high frequencies.

OK then, if the airport stats are nothing, what does that say for the intermediate stations? Clearly 4tph or higher would be overkill, would you agree? (I know you won't of course)
Ideally I would want 4 at most 6 trains per hour.
But the infrastructure won't support that.
The only way to get more than two trains per hour onto the alignment is to make the trains have the same, or nearly the same, running times.
Which means homogenising the timetable, which means stopping every train.

If we had more capacity, then it would be different, but we don't.


Then I'm afraid it's the bus or a half hourly train. Still considerably more than many places screaming out for greater capacity.
Then we should admit the truth that the railway isn't really interested in properly serving those stations and withdraw all the intermediate calls.
They are of little usefulness, and it would be best to use the resources elsewhere.
The sheer number is as much an operational issue which precious little capacity for terminating services through the Castlefield corridor. Perhaps some Northern services should be re-routed through Victoria to terminate at Rochdale or Stalybridge?
It has been demonstrated that the trains to the Airport are sacrosanct, which is why I do not propose cutting down on them as many on this forum do.
But if there is too much capacity for the airport, then 8 or 9 trains per hour stopping at all shacks would be even less productive, and a massive overkill. I can't imagine a TOC like TPE ever agreeing to something like this when the real profit is in getting longer distance punters to the airport.
At the end of the day, the railway will do what the state says, because the state is the one who pays for all this.
Anyway, we aren't going to agree on this matter, and the mods are probably poised to ask us to return to topic. So we may have to agree to disagree at least on this thread.
Ok, this post will be last words on the topic.
 

Chester1

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Regardless of whether platforms 15 and 16 are built there will be no extra services for Manchester Airport station. The station is full and paths will go to the highest value services and that will always be long distance ones. Oxford Road rebuild and platforms 15 and 16 would result in Northern services between Stockport and Piccadilly 1-12 being diverted to run through Castlefield. CLC stoppers would need to run through to somewhere. There would need to be a remapping of Northern services. I am not sure there are paths south of Piccadilly for more than 15tph from Castlefield i.e. the existing 11tph (Llandudno using Airport station or Mayfield siding) + 4tph Stockport services diverted). Two more services could be added for the north but they would have to be northern services unless another operator took over a Northern path south of Piccadilly.
 

Chester1

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So which Northern services would be sent through Castlefield?

Buxton (2tph), Mid Cheshire Line and Stoke on Trent. It would be tricky to link them with services north or west of the city centre. Its proved too difficult to find paths for a second Mid Cheshire Line or Hazel Grove services which would indicate its not likely additional services could be run instead.

The Airport issue can be mostly solved with a TBM and a couple hundred million.

Which would be a waste of money. There are much better ways of spending that much (or more) in the Manchester area. 8tph is enough for the Airport. Grade separating Ordsall Lane Junction to remove multiple conflicts would help.
 

LOL The Irony

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Buxton (2tph), Mid Cheshire Line and Stoke on Trent. It would be tricky to link them with services north or west of the city centre. Its proved too difficult to find paths for a second Mid Cheshire Line or Hazel Grove services which would indicate its not likely additional services could be run instead.
That is the issue. Buxton - Blackpool was cut because it was unreliable. I think it's best to keep them terminating at the main train shed as there's no west facing bay platforms at Victoria. Also the Mid-Cheshire services now only have a 10 minute turn around at Piccadilly at best.
Which would be a waste of money. There are much better ways of spending that much (or more) in the Manchester area. 8tph is enough for the Airport. Grade separating Ordsall Lane Junction to remove multiple conflicts would help.
I'm not saying there should be more trains, I'm saying the station should be extended to take longer trains. At least a 11 car Pendolino for post-HS2 services (or services if it isn't built).
 

Jozhua

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Hopefully the business review can be completed by 2025, in time for new environmental and community consultations to be completed by 2030.

By this time the works can begin demolishing the block of flats built right next to 13/14, although protests by residents who have called it home for almost a decade could delay the project by a year or two.

Once construction of the structure is complete in 2040, work can take place installing cantenary and signalling, which at a Manchester - Blackpool electrification pace should be completed at the latest by 2050 :)

Then five years of testing, just to be sure and accumulating the platforms their necessary fault-free milage the platforms should be open in time for the 2060! Passengers looking to get to Manchester Spaceport will really enjoy the increase in capacity, however are slightly frustrated their past counterparts didn't manage to get people out their cars for some reason and now half the planet is underwater.

Oh well, Sector<¢¥~¿7}{}}€[A rail is running more reliable services through Castlefield and that's something we can all get behind!
 

daodao

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.... Try and engineer a Styal Line corridor tramway.... I'll wait. There is no practical alternative to the railway.
There once was a reserved track tramway along Kingsway parallel to the Styal railway line (route 40, now bus route 50). The wide median strip lasted for many years after closure of the tramway in the late 1940s, but has now been encroached on to widen the roadway and provide right-turning lanes at road junctions. Princess Road also had a reserved track tramway, and the wide median strip has now been encroached on similarly. The new tramway to Wythenshawe and the Airport makes use of the wide median strip on Mauldeth Road West and the wide Hardy Lane that was designed for a reserved track tramway to Sale, cancelled in 1930 following the decision to abandon Manchester's (first generation) tramway system. If that system had continued to be developed, there would have been a tramway to Ringway Airport via Wythenshawe and Princess Road, but due to the decision to abandon it, the line terminated at Southern Cemetery. The tram line to West Didsbury, which ran along Wilmslow Road through the congested shopping centres of Rusholme and Withington, was abandoned immediately before the outbreak of WW2 in 1939, and despite being having a very frequent bus service (and thus passenger loads justifying a tramway), would be very difficult to reinstate.

On topic, the service frequencies at many suburban passenger rail stations in Greater Manchester, are appalling (mostly maximum every 30 minutes, and often much worse). Metrolink provides much better service frequencies, which has been a major improvement for converted rail lines. However, while it is possible to convert the ex-GC lines to SE M/c, and possibly the Atherton and Liverpool CLC lines, to Metrolink, the remaining lines (Chat Moss, Bolton, Rochdale, Stalybridge via Miles Platting, and Stockport and beyond) have to remain as heavy rail for longer distance traffic and freight trains. If HS2 is built via the Airport, the existing Styal line could be converted to Metrolink, but only at the cost of stopping running through trains from elsewhere in Northern England direct to the Airport.

In my opinion, the best solution for the Styal Line would be to run express trains every 15 minutes from the Airport non-stop to Oxford Road, extending (each hourly) to longer-distance destinations (Liverpool via Chat Moss, Blackpool via Bolton, East Lancs via Rochdale, and Leeds/Bradford via Rochdale), with an electric all-stops service to Piccadilly every 15 minutes departing immediately after the express service. Half-hourly High Peak bus route 199 from the Airport to Buxton could be diverted (slightly) to call at Edgeley station to provide connections with Sheffield trains.

The Castlefield corridor, and indeed all of the remaining passenger rail services in Greater M/c, would be improved by simplifying the route pattern, with fewer routes mostly operated every 30 minutes. The current network is too complicated.
 
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Esker-pades

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Buxton (2tph), Mid Cheshire Line and Stoke on Trent. It would be tricky to link them with services north or west of the city centre. Its proved too difficult to find paths for a second Mid Cheshire Line or Hazel Grove services which would indicate its not likely additional services could be run instead.



Which would be a waste of money. There are much better ways of spending that much (or more) in the Manchester area. 8tph is enough for the Airport. Grade separating Ordsall Lane Junction to remove multiple conflicts would help.
If the ex-Castlefield servives don't go to the Airport, where do they go?
 

Bletchleyite

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If the ex-Castlefield servives don't go to the Airport, where do they go?

That's the problem - you could use Stockport bay but I believe that causes a conflict.

There is the reversing siding, though you can't have too many services using that.

The more I think about this, the more I think they could do with some west-facing terminal platforms at Picc instead of 15/16! :)
 

Tomnick

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That's the problem - you could use Stockport bay but I believe that causes a conflict.

There is the reversing siding, though you can't have too many services using that.

The more I think about this, the more I think they could do with some west-facing terminal platforms at Picc instead of 15/16! :)
Exactly the problem. If you send more to Stockport, it’s more conflicts at Slade Lane and at Stockport itself (you can only get to the bay from the Up Fast, obviously blocking the Down Fast - including arrivals from the south if I’m not mistaken - too). If you tip them out at Picc to reverse in the variety of hidey-holes between there and Slade Lane (Mayfield loop and the Down Goods at Longsight seem to be favourites), you’re blocking platform 13 whilst staff check that everyone’s off and then block the Down Slow whilst it’s put across. West facing bays would probably solve a lot of problems, but at Picc they’d have to be between the through platforms really so you’d still have to move the Down out somewhere. Maybe there’s a lot to be said for the suggestion upthread of tweaking Oxford Road to allow more convenient turnbacks in platforms 2 and 3!
 

Bletchleyite

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I suppose the other option is to rebuild Victoria (easier if the Arena was to close as was said was a distinct possibility if the new Eastlands arena is built) to have far more capacity and west-facing bays, and just send more services there.
 

Jozhua

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I suppose the other option is to rebuild Victoria (easier if the Arena was to close as was said was a distinct possibility if the new Eastlands arena is built) to have far more capacity and west-facing bays, and just send more services there.

For some reason, I feel like Castlefield expansion might be an easier/cheaper option than that... The arena where it is currently is a lot better of a location than Eastlands where the only real public transport connection to the majority of the rest of Manchester is going to be the tram.

Couldn't Victoria also be extended to the west, beyond the arena a bit if extra capacity is needed that badly? There's a unused bit of bridge right in front that could accommodate a 100m west facing bay. Enough to shove an extra couple of 319's/323's in an hour at little extra cost.

Thing is, Piccadilly is king for transfers to destinations southwards and that's currently badly served by areas north and to the west of Manchester.
 

Bletchleyite

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Thing is, Piccadilly is king for transfers to destinations southwards and that's currently badly served by areas north and to the west of Manchester.

Yes, true. Vic and the Northern Quarter isn't the wasteland it was in the 1990s - not even near it - but it still isn't where most people want to go. Much as some seem to think it was, the Windsor Link wasn't a stupid idea at all. What was a stupid idea was whacking increasing numbers of short trains down it without much consideration of what effect that would have.

So go bigger then...four west-facing 6x24m terminal bays in the middle of two through platforms? It'd fit on the land that's presently a few sheds and a car park, though it might encroach on Mayfield a bit (is that listed? Could it be incorporated?)

Basically, whack up something a little like one side of St Pancras Domestic?
 

Altfish

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Buxton (2tph), Mid Cheshire Line and Stoke on Trent. It would be tricky to link them with services north or west of the city centre. Its proved too difficult to find paths for a second Mid Cheshire Line or Hazel Grove services which would indicate its not likely additional services could be run instead.
But the mid-Cheshire Line hasn't gone through the Castlefield Corridor since Metrolink opened.
 

Meerkat

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If rebuilding Victoria is being considered would it be easier/cheaper to build a new station in East Manchester which could turn trains? There is a fair gap Eastbound before the next stops.
First thought was in the Philips Park triangle north of the Etihad, or by Central Park Metro, but it might be more sensible at Miles Platting when the Junction is changed
 

Bletchleyite

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If rebuilding Victoria is being considered would it be easier/cheaper to build a new station in East Manchester which could turn trains? There is a fair gap Eastbound before the next stops.
First thought was in the Philips Park triangle north of the Etihad, or by Central Park Metro, but it might be more sensible at Miles Platting when the Junction is changed

How about building an Ardwick Hauptbahnhof for that purpose? It's a wasteland, tons of space for it. Could be the heart of a redevelopment of a very run down part of the city for either business or residential use?

Or perhaps cheaper - reinstate the Longsight excursion platforms?
 
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