Thanks for my new favourite saying: "Doing x would be less very difficult."
I liked it when I wrote it too!
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HS1 to HS2 link - possible in the future?
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I liked it when I wrote it too!
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When I take that escalator route at Gatwick I have to close my eyes and hang on to my wife's handbag otherwise I would faint.
Surreytraveller
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Even easier would be to paint a line from Euston to Pancras for people to follow
They did install some better pedestrian signage along one or more routes a few years back, but this whole idea of an attractive short cut, whether over, under the ground or on the surface and whether mechanised in any way or not, only really works if there's a new east side entrance to a redeveloped Euston onto Eversholt Street, approximately in line with the west side entrance to St Pancras.
I suppose that while the view over the aprons and taxiways may be interesting or even exciting for some, for others like yourself it would be far better if the bridge had been built without windows. I was slightly unpleasantly surprised how high it seemed the first time I crossed it.When I take that escalator route at Gatwick I have to close my eyes and hang on to my wife's handbag otherwise I would faint.
swt_passenger
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I think the issue was proposed shared running over NLL tracks, a presumed lack of paths and problems with platform gauge clearance for domestic and international/HS2 gauge stock.
For the platform clearance and capacity issues mentioned, UIC profile stock could never realistically share tracks with dense LO services through Camden Road station and across the Kentish Town Road bridge. An additional single track at least alongside on the highly constrained elevated route would be required. The trains would also be fighting for capacity with long cross London freights, which could potentially block back onto WCML and NLL routes if delayed. The additional track(s) to solve these issues would be very expensive, and politically difficult to achieve, especially considering the vanishingly small number of through passenger services that could plausibly be envisaged. There was also no possibility of extending the proposed interconnection tunnel from OOC to the existing station box at Stratford International as there is no space for the portal and junctions, so the link would have to remain in its own dedicated new bore as far as Dagenham or beyond.
BRX
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All the discussion of expensive solutions for getting people between Euston and st Pancras makes me wonder how much it would cost simply to improve the access to the tube at each station. For example, could a strategically placed new liftshaft at Euston deliver people with luggage more directly to the relevant platform.
If you were to incorporate it into a building what I'd do is to have the walkways stop at the edge of the building and then have a large open space with shops and restaurants within the building. With such a large footfall it would be attractive to those wishing to rent the space, especially with another similar configuration at ground level and maybe a mezzanine floor between the two (assuming a 6.5 to 7.5m level difference between the two to allow for road traffic, 5.5m + bridge deck, to pass under). There's then scope to have a mezzanine for the upper level which could house your entrances to the development above as well as maybe things like building management office, gym, or other use which people will be willing to travel to use.
Such uses could include:
- first class lounge for rail travel with enhanced features such as shower facilities and being able to order food from the other restaurants for eating in the lounge, you can then downgrade the existing first class lounges to first class waiting rooms.
- office pods and meeting rooms which are hired by the half hour.
Yes that's 4 floors "lost" from the building, however I suspect that it would be the sort of kids which actually had little impact on the viability of the development.
Snow1964
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Not sure it would be long enough to justify a TBM
The first part near a portal (effectively a ramp to the surface) is too shallow so tends to be done as cut and cover. This may actually be almost half a dive under, and would be almost impossible to build easily if not provided for at Camden during other construction.
Even if a shaft was sunk for a TBM, there is normally a manually cut length in which to slide the TBM sections as it is erected, before it starts cutting.
Taking these together would be quicker just to cut the whole section without a TBM, not that far from Camden to the spurs north of Kings Cross.
Completely different if we’re digging a long tunnel from say Old Oak. But then if the budget is available for that, may as well have saved money rebuilding Euston and dug some tunnels South and continued the line to Croydon or Gatwick. London would have been a through station with two island platforms with trains alternating sides to allow sufficient dwell times. The old Holborn tram subway would have given ready made concourse if platforms had been bored below.
The first part near a portal (effectively a ramp to the surface) is too shallow so tends to be done as cut and cover. This may actually be almost half a dive under, and would be almost impossible to build easily if not provided for at Camden during other construction.
Even if a shaft was sunk for a TBM, there is normally a manually cut length in which to slide the TBM sections as it is erected, before it starts cutting.
Taking these together would be quicker just to cut the whole section without a TBM, not that far from Camden to the spurs north of Kings Cross.
Completely different if we’re digging a long tunnel from say Old Oak. But then if the budget is available for that, may as well have saved money rebuilding Euston and dug some tunnels South and continued the line to Croydon or Gatwick. London would have been a through station with two island platforms with trains alternating sides to allow sufficient dwell times. The old Holborn tram subway would have given ready made concourse if platforms had been bored below.
A travelator (whether tunneled, elevated, or at-grade) is of far more benefit to passengers than a direct rail link. But Birmingham-Brighton journeys are not as sexy-sounding as Birmingham-Brussels (not that trains through the link would go to either of those destinations, beyond a token. Unless you count the Airport for Birmingham) and so spending a hundreds-of-millions sum on some moving walkways is never going to be politically popular as it undermines the weak case for spending 10 times the amount to have through trains.
Which is a shame, as moving walkways give relatively easy interchange between all HS1 and HS2 services, Thameslink, the WCML, etc. A link would be limited to limited destinations on HS1 and HS2 and would remove a London path from both.
Which is a shame, as moving walkways give relatively easy interchange between all HS1 and HS2 services, Thameslink, the WCML, etc. A link would be limited to limited destinations on HS1 and HS2 and would remove a London path from both.
Dave_Cardboard
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Here's a lengthy HS2 (C. 2015) into the options available... https://assets.publishing.service.g...ttachment_data/file/480372/HS2-HS1_report.pdf
I don't want to be defeatist but no-one will get the train from Birmingham to Brussels. The journey will be too long and that's before you start thinking about how passport control and immigration is dealt with. People making that journey will simply fly.
The link between Euston and St Pancras reminds me of Glasgow Central to Queen Street. The best we'll get is some improved signage and perhaps a bus link which will take longer than actually walking it.
The link between Euston and St Pancras reminds me of Glasgow Central to Queen Street. The best we'll get is some improved signage and perhaps a bus link which will take longer than actually walking it.
I think they would. But not many. About 3,000 people a week fly between the two today, and no doubt there are plenty who get the train to London and then the Eurostar. I suspect there would be enough custom for one train a day each way; if it was to start back at Manchester, and stop at Stratford, you could probably fill 3-4 trains a day, which is the minimum needed frequency wise to get all the air traffic. Some of this would be traffic already on the Eurostars of course.
However, it would only be possible if the U.K. grew up, joined Schengen, and removed the border controls.
And without border controls, the trains could carry domestic passengers both sides of the channel, between the Midlands and Stratford/Kent for example. Again not viable on it's own but add these passengers and interchange traffic via Stratford to the international flows and a more frequent service might be justified. I still think the best option is to encourage more continental destinations from St. P and improve pedestrian links to Euston, abou 500m away at its closest point.
swt_passenger
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You’d probably spend longer time wise getting to and from the tube vertically and waiting for a train than walking along the street horizontally.
Sad Sprinter
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The way I see it would be best to go back to the 2012 "Rail Lords" proposal for the Euston Cross station. That way you can run Javelin trains through St. Pancras to somewhere like Heathrow-giving Kent direct access to the airport and also running HS2 trains to the Tunnel.
I don't think 'the journey will be too long' works as an argument. After HS2 is built London–Birmingham will be 49 minutes. Broadly assuming London–Brussels times stay the same as today, the Birmingham–Brussels journey time would be around 2h40.
Until 2007 when HS1 opened, the London–Brussels journey time was 2h40 and Eurostar still dominated the route.
Whether there's enough demand to warrant it is another matter, but journey times won't be the problem. It'll still be faster than flying city-centre to city-centre.
swt_passenger
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The unbuildable fantasy Euston Cross?
Sad Sprinter
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That's the one.
Shame BR's original Kings Cross Low Level station was never built. This problem would have been solved in 1987.
It’s not far.
Painted line or some special paving/coloured tarmac clearly showing the way.
Concerted effort to make it as easy as possible at crossings and clear pavements of every obstruction that isn’t essential.
Special chunkier wheeled luggage trolleys with contactless deposit system. Could even have electric assisted ones if legal.
Contactless deposit system for big umbrellas!
Painted line or some special paving/coloured tarmac clearly showing the way.
Concerted effort to make it as easy as possible at crossings and clear pavements of every obstruction that isn’t essential.
Special chunkier wheeled luggage trolleys with contactless deposit system. Could even have electric assisted ones if legal.
Contactless deposit system for big umbrellas!
Make that the earlier-mentioned (driverless) 'pods' that the travellers just sit on and you've cracked it.
The main airport in Paris is at Charles de Gaulle to the West of the city, which sits naturally on a link between the North and the south-east, from a Parisian perspective.
London's main airport is at Heathrow in the West, with Gatwick to the South. The others aren't worth bothering with. That implies a potential crayoning between hs1 and hs2 from Fakenham junction (?) to Gatwick to Heathrow to OOC, going round the South of London rather than Camden.
The original provision for the Heathrow junction on HS2 was in the Colne Valley, though depends whether the HS2 alignment in this area still retains any passive provision for the spur.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
HS2 will have a high level concourse above their platforms, but a more direct link to the east would have to await the re-development of the NR side of the station which is unlikely to happen until after HS2 phase 2.
I think you meant to say Charles de Gaulle was to the north-east of Paris. It's just about visible from the Eurostar a little way north of the start of the high speed line.
Fawkham junction?
That link would be very much longer and involve expensive underground stations at Heathrow and probably Gatwick too. It's unlikely many people to/from Continental Europe would connect with a long-haul flight at either airport when they have much better hub airports of their own
johnnychips
Established Member
Charles De Gaulle Airport is to the north-east of Paris.
Javelins to Heathrow would work and deal with most of the passenger demand (which was projected to have origin or destination in the SE in most cases) via changing at Ebbsfleet or OOC. It would have to replace HEx as there's no capacity on the Airport branch for all the different services, and certainly couldn't join with HS2 (I'll presume any Paddington-Airport Junction 3rd fast track would provide the GWML capacity beyond OOC), so is a tunnel - with one (if not two - one at Paddington) underground stations - worth it for 6-8tph from Kent to Heathrow?
But I don't believe Javelins to Heathrow is the Euston Cross idea, which was to replace both High Speed termini with a underground through station that would be massive (three 400m islands) and still not be big enough to deal with the passenger flows on platforms (given that the vast majority of people would get off their train). Or that HS1 and HS2 don't balance each other out (mostly commuter HS1, many more trains on HS2).
The trouble with the ‘railway lords’ is that they are not tunnel engineers. As @swt_passenger mentions, such a project is not physically possible. A time least not without ripping up the existing tube lines.
Th HS2 platforms are much lower than the current platforms, and the concourse is roughly at the same level as the current concourse, which isn’t that far above street level.
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