Are 'No Sunday Services' acceptable nowadays?

BucksBones · 13 Oct 2019

ComUtoR said:
Stores still have restricted hours. Sunday is not 'normal' Should the railway also have restricted hours too ?

No, I don’t think so. In my opinion the Sunday trading laws are as anachronistic as the train service. Look how many people cram into your local Tesco between 10am and 4pm on a Sunday.

As a broadly secular society we need to accept that Sunday is simply the second day of the weekend in the minds of the vast majority of the population.

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stj · 13 Oct 2019

Many routes have an advertised Sunday service but often it is altered due to Engineering Work.

Trainfan2019 · 13 Oct 2019

Derby to Crewe has no trains until the afternoon on Sundays. Stoke to Manchester stopper on Sundays only every 3 hours all day - surprising really as I would thought there would be more demand for a city the size of Manchester. Were these 2 routes always this level of service on Sundays?

Banfurlong · 13 Oct 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I don't know those lines in any detail, but I suppose it should be on a case-by-case basis. Are the intermediate populations on those lines served by bus on Sundays? But even the Heart of Wales has a service, of sorts! So maybe they should have a claim.

What does amaze me is the differences in provision. I think Cambridge - Ipswich is hourly for most of Sunday, same as a weekday, just doesn't start so early. Sunday trains start from Yeovil Jcn at something like 07.xx - while other locations have nothing until 11.00.

For many years I hoped that some sort of Sunday service could be provided on the Cumbrian Coast - perhaps four trains each way per day, or some such - then Northern introduce a near hourly timetable, though again, understandably not starting so early as on a weekday. (I suppose the theory there is, if you are going to open all the boxes, might as well provide a decent service. Still a pleasant suprise though.)

Against this example, we have the G&SW which Scotrail seems to disown between Dumfries and Kilmarnock on the Sabbath.

NB, all these comments are from memory, and might be in error.

Bovverboy said:
To count 8tph (each way) you need to include the TPE Scottish services, which are pick-up or set-down only, and they don't all stop at Bolton. All the same, if you're including the TPEs on Monday to Saturday you should include them on Sundays as well, so the usual Sunday service atm is 3tph each way - the TPE, 1tph Manchester Airport (or Oxford Road) - Blackpool North, and 1tph Manchester Victoria - Clitheroe.

But for the present staff shortages the Sunday service would presumably be 5tph each way - the above, plus 1tph Manchester Victoria - Blackpool North, and 1tph Stalybridge - Wigan North Western.

There is as many cancellation midweek on the Cumbria - Manchester Airport service, we have new trains but no drivers

matt_world2004 · 13 Oct 2019

I don't understand why hanwell didn't get a Sunday service over Acton Main line Acton Main line is a quieter station

FenMan · 13 Oct 2019

In contrast, it's been a good news story on the North Downs Line. After years of a 1tph Reading-Gatwick skip-stopping along the route (meaning that some of the better used stations only had 1tp2h and passengers were often enduring Mumbai commuter train-style conditions on board), a couple of years ago GWR upgraded the Sunday service to 1tph semi-fast to Gatwick and an hourly stopper to Redhill. Much better!

Bletchleyite · 13 Oct 2019

matt_world2004 said:
I don't understand why hanwell didn't get a Sunday service over Acton Main line Acton Main line is a quieter station

The lack of Sunday services on the GW locals is frankly utterly bizarre. I can see no reason why any London/South East area mainline station should have no Sunday service. Why does it not?

matt_world2004 · 13 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
The lack of Sunday services on the GW locals is frankly utterly bizarre. I can see no reason why any London/South East area mainline station should have no Sunday service. Why does it not?

Initially it is because there are no platforms on the fast lines ,however Acton Main line and west ealing have similar issues and they now get a core hours Sunday service.

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

Be interesting to know which are the busiest stations without a Sunday service?

geoffk · 13 Oct 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
Derby to Crewe has no trains until the afternoon on Sundays. Stoke to Manchester stopper on Sundays only every 3 hours all day - surprising really as I would thought there would be more demand for a city the size of Manchester. Were these 2 routes always this level of service on Sundays?

Stoke to Manchester was supposed to go hourly but, until the Sunday working agreement can be sorted out, there's no point in advertising a timetable which cannot be delivered. In contrast, Leeds/Bradford to Skipton have both been increased to hourly from every two hours.

matt_world2004 · 13 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Be interesting to know which are the busiest stations without a Sunday service?

Waterloo and city line has 15 million passenger journeys and is closed on a Sunday.

BucksBones · 13 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Be interesting to know which are the busiest stations without a Sunday service?

There can’t be many busier than Hanwell at 460,000 passengers per year, unless I’m missing some really obvious ones.... Cannon St and Fenchurch St must have been winners before 7-day opening.

Llandudno · 13 Oct 2019

Colchester Town 750,000 per annum.

transmanche · 13 Oct 2019

matt_world2004 said:
Waterloo and city line has 15 million passenger journeys and is closed on a Sunday.

That is one route that really isn't going to have much demand on a Sunday!

Sticking with the Underground, the Piccadilly line has the same number of trains in service during the middle of the day (12:00-15:00) on a Sunday as it does on Monday-Friday - 68 trains. (On Saturdays it has between 72 and 76 trains in service between those times.)

GoneSouth · 13 Oct 2019

ComUtoR said:
Stores still have restricted hours. Sunday is not 'normal' Should the railway also have restricted hours too ?

Sunday is also considered to be 'a day of rest'

If you wish to base Sunday services on retail, then maybe the retail sector should fund it.

The railway does have restricted hours on Sunday, just like the shops. Try catching a train around Gloucestershire before 1000 if you don’t believe me.

Sunday might still be considered a day of rest for some, however some of us don’t hold religious beliefs and more importantly, some of us need to get to work on a Sunday morning, and our employers are pretty unforgiving when we can’t be there until 1100.

geoffk · 14 Oct 2019

The Glasgow Subway has odd hours on a Sunday, 10.00 until 18.12 (sic). I assume just one shift but not very user-friendly.

satisnek · 14 Oct 2019

It's interesting how Sunday service provision has changed over the decades. In the Gents at Bewdley station there's a Kidderminster departures poster from 1962 (I think) which shows Sunday services operating in the morning only, from about 0800 to lunchtime. The post-Beeching period saw no Sunday servces at all, then they were reintroduced in the afternoon/evening only (this I can remember). Even today, the first Sunday departure isn't until about 0940ish.

bramling · 14 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
By followers of one major religion which, in the UK at least, is in substantial decline.

For followers of another religion, it's Saturday. And for followers of another - one that is growing somewhat - it's Friday.

Speaking simply for myself, as someone of no religion, I'm quite happy with the idea of Sunday being a "day of rest" - within reason. In all honesty I yearn to return to the days of quiet Sundays, and hate the way Sundays have become a day of retail frenzy.

Returning to the original subject of the thread, simply personal opinion again however I rarely use Sunday rail services, so would prefer not to have to subsidise them. IMO they should be run on a "bare minimum" basis (i.e. reduced frequency, skeleton staffing and maximum length), and not run where there isn't a decent economic case.

ComUtoR · 14 Oct 2019

A lot of the country still works with a Monday-Friday 9-5 mentality. We still love 'weekends off' like it or not, we still have antiquated Sunday trading hours and like it or not, many people do have religious beliefs surrounding Sundays.

The railway simply reflects this too. Reduced hours, shorter services, altered stopping patterns, and some stations that are not served. It will change over time I have no doubt.

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

satisnek said:
It's interesting how Sunday service provision has changed over the decades. In the Gents at Bewdley station there's a Kidderminster departures poster from 1962 (I think) which shows Sunday services operating in the morning only, from about 0800 to lunchtime. The post-Beeching period saw no Sunday servces at all, then they were reintroduced in the afternoon/evening only (this I can remember). Even today, the first Sunday departure isn't until about 0940ish.

Would that be for church related purposes originally, perhaps? Or maybe to deliver the Sunday papers if they had such things back then?

radamfi · 14 Oct 2019

If you download some traffic count data for your local area, you will probably find a lot of travelling happens on Sundays. People want to visit friends and family and Sunday can be the most convenient time to make that trip.

Jamesrob637 · 14 Oct 2019

Also people (albeit quite slowly) increasingly don't want to commute from provincial towns and cities to London on a Monday morning so more and more business trips are starting on a Sunday afternoon. Even if the travellers return Thursday evening and condense their working week into four longer days rather than five average-length days.

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

radamfi said:
If you download some traffic count data for your local area, you will probably find a lot of travelling happens on Sundays. People want to visit friends and family and Sunday can be the most convenient time to make that trip.

Jamesrob637 said:
Also people (albeit quite slowly) increasingly don't want to commute from provincial towns and cities to London on a Monday morning so more and more business trips are starting on a Sunday afternoon. Even if the travellers return Thursday evening and condense their working week into four longer days rather than five average-length days.

Yes, both of these points - indeed they are somewhat related. I'd say the busiest time on the IC network is Friday evening, and second only to that (and only because it's a bit more spread out - it might well have more passengers by raw numbers as some went outbound on Saturday) is Sunday afternoon/early evening. This is both because of people weekend tripping for whatever reason and because of weekly commuters. Add to that Sunday evening shopping traffic returning home and that makes for some very busy services indeed.

If you live in (say) Woburn Sands or Lidlington, and you can't do the whole thing by rail because you can't get back on Sunday, you might well just drive the whole thing. Taxi to MKC from those places would probably be a little too pricey, and while there is a bus service in the former case (planning gain), it's, er, a bus service.

Local connectivity is important.

edwin_m · 14 Oct 2019

matt_world2004 said:
Waterloo and city line has 15 million passenger journeys and is closed on a Sunday.

This has no intermediate stations and there are several other ways of getting between the two end stations on a turn-up-and-go basis, so it's really not a concern unless needed for crowd-busting on the alternative routes.

70014IronDuke · 14 Oct 2019

86246 said:
Ipswich - Cambridge is every two hours on a Sunday. Along with the East Suffolk, that is set to be improved to an hourly service from December.

Thanks for clarification.

BucksBones said:
... The one that got me recently was the XC Birmingham - Stansted route; if you want to go from, say, Nuneaton to Peterborough on a Sunday the first train won’t get you there until 13:15! Absolutely hopeless in my view and, given the loadings on that line, not at all down to lack of demand. I’m sure there are many similar examples.

I'm not so sure there are many as bad as this XC service, TBH. It really is poor in terms of starting so late. Same for Derby - Crew, as someone else has pointed out.

PeterY said:
My opinions only. Bedford to Bletchley would never warrant a Sunday service. ...
I think just by tradition only, if a line has never had a Sunday service, it's never likely to.

Just to note that Bedford - Bletchley, as part of the Cambridge - Bletchley route, had a Sunday service up to about 61 or 62.

I don't know for sure, but I suspect one source of traffic, until everyone got cars, scooters and mopeds, were the brickworks. I presume the kilns needed tending every day of the week.

Controller1701 · 14 Oct 2019

Mag_seven said:
Says who?

The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

Controller1701 said:
The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

What do the great books of other religions say? Christianity is in heavy decline in the UK.

DarloRich · 14 Oct 2019

PeterY said:
My opinions only. Bedford to Bletchley would never warrant a Sunday service. Without going into loads of timetables I sure there are lines that need a Sunday service.
I think just by tradition only, if a line has never had a Sunday service, it's never likely to.

is that right? My opinions only: You are dead wrong. LNWR also think you are dead wrong as they are slatted to introduce a Sunday service in 2021

Bletchleyite said:
No, it isn't. Sunday is a normal shopping day and also the day when families whose parents don't work take days out - without a rail service they're doing it by car.

A different timetable is probably justified, as the shopping day is compressed - so a late start and a thin service on local routes before about 1000 and after about 1900 is probably justified. But not an early finish, as that causes issues for those who have been away somewhere and are coming back with the last bit on the local route.

Agreed - the lack of a Sunday service causes all kinds of trouble for me.

ComUtoR said:
Stores still have restricted hours. Sunday is not 'normal' Should the railway also have restricted hours too ?

Not in Scotland! Shops should be open as normal in England. Bloody bible bashers!

stj said:
Many routes have an advertised Sunday service but often it is altered due to Engineering Work.

Imagine having to fix the track so, you know, trains don't crash. Awful. Why do you think Sunday is the chosen day?

Controller1701 said:
The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

If only God hadn't got out of the smiting business. He could sort out Tesco's opening, in a blasphemous fashion, on a Sunday. Imagine how much fire and brimstone he could rain down if they stayed open beyond 16:00 on a Sunday....................

matt_world2004 · 14 Oct 2019

edwin_m said:
This has no intermediate stations and there are several other ways of getting between the two end stations on a turn-up-and-go basis, so it's really not a concern unless needed for crowd-busting on the alternative routes.

I wasn't saying it was a concern, I was posting it as a bit of trivia information about the busiest stations without a Sunday service.

BucksBones · 14 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
The Glasgow Subway has odd hours on a Sunday, 10.00 until 18.12 (sic). I assume just one shift but not very user-friendly.

That’s really poor!

bramling said:
Speaking simply for myself, as someone of no religion, I'm quite happy with the idea of Sunday being a "day of rest" - within reason. In all honesty I yearn to return to the days of quiet Sundays, and hate the way Sundays have become a day of retail frenzy.

Returning to the original subject of the thread, simply personal opinion again however I rarely use Sunday rail services, so would prefer not to have to subsidise them. IMO they should be run on a "bare minimum" basis (i.e. reduced frequency, skeleton staffing and maximum length), and not run where there isn't a decent economic case.

I’m afraid those idyllic days are in the past and will remain there. Actually I think the retail frenzy is made worse by the restricted trading hours as it funnels all the demand into a short space of time. It’s time for us as a country to move on and accept change.

radamfi said:
If you download some traffic count data for your local area, you will probably find a lot of travelling happens on Sundays. People want to visit friends and family and Sunday can be the most convenient time to make that trip.

Absolutely. To give a local example the vast majority of LNR services on a Sunday are now 8 car after years of crush loaded 4 car trains and even they tend to be very busy. Busier by far than weekday off-peak.

Controller1701 said:
The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

I’m afraid we live in a secular society now. Those who wish to observe their sabbath, on whichever day it may be, will of course do so. Most people don’t.

Are 'No Sunday Services' acceptable nowadays?

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