North Wales Coast Timetable - Dog’s Breakfast.

Llandudno · 10 Oct 2019

Why does the timetable along the North Wales Coast resemble a dog’s breakfast?

Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of trains operating, although they should have more carriages

No attempt at a clock face frequency, which results in tight/missed connections at Chester for Liverpool and Manchester.

Irregular stopping patterns, Colwyn Bay and even Rhyl are omitted on some services

Varying terminating stations, Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno, Llandudno Junction, Crewe, Chester, London, Manchester, Manchester Airport, Cardiff, Birmingham International, Shrewsbury, there are probably more!

Request stops even at some busy stations, eg Conwy

2+ hour gaps in service at Conwy and at local Anglesey stations

First east bound train great at circa 0430, but last one around 2030 from Holyhead

Last Welsh bound Saturday train from Chester on a Saturday is circa 2230 (0040 every other night)

No Sunday trains in either direction before 0930 and then only one train per hour all day, with just one extra tea time Virgin train

No trains to Llandudno on Sundays between September and April, but I gather that this is being addressed from December?

I appreciate that there are a handful of Virgin trains operating on this route but the vast majority are operated for TfW.

I know that TfW keep promising more trains in the years to come, but does anyone think that they will address the haphazard frequencies and stopping patterns on the Coast?

TfW have also promised 10% fares reductions on the NW Coast, does anyone know when this will be introduced. Will it be actually be 10%, or will the reduction apply after the annual fares increase, so only circa 7.5%?

I hope this does not sound like a rant, it’s not meant to be - just inquisitive!!

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Bletchleyite · 10 Oct 2019

I don't know, but it's certainly a good case for a Takt with the VTs laid over the top.

There are 2 basic services past Chester - 1tph Manchester-Llandudno and 1tph Cardiff-Holyhead, and vice versa. I can see no reason why those two should not be fully clockface with all the same calls each hour.

LNW-GW Joint · 11 Oct 2019

The tweaking in recent years was intended to put more peak capacity where it was needed - eastbound am, westbound pm.
The VT and ATW/TfW timetables have always clashed, with too much capacity at some times and too little at others.
Places like Conwy (only a mile from Llandudno Jn) and local stops to Holyhead have only ever had a 2-hourly service.
The depot at Chester means that evenings see most trains terminating there, while on Sundays they don't run as many through trains in any direction.
The weekday pattern just doesn't apply on Sundays, with more trains heading for Crewe.
Train types and lengths are also chaotic.
There's also no doubt that reliability is poor, not helped by working deep into problematic areas - Manchester and Birmingham.
The Northern and WMT situations must be having an impact.

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
The tweaking in recent years was intended to put more peak capacity where it was needed - eastbound am, westbound pm.

It would be better to do that with longer trains than by breaking the Takt.

There is of course the Conwy Valley elephant in the room - there really needs to be work done of some kind to get that to a 2-hourly clockface pattern (or move it to 3 hourly clockface, which it almost is anyway, perhaps with a fill-in "permanent RRB" bus service for the commuter time that misses like they used to have). It would hugely enhance its utility and might stem some of the losses.

Conwy should be served by all trains (using SDO if applicable), while small it's a very popular tourist destination and not serving it is throwing away custom. For the other stations, you could serve, say, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairpwll one hour and Valley, Ty Croes and Bodorgan the other hour, I very much doubt anyone is doing a local journey between any of those stations. Obviously any of those could be swapped around if there is a genuine local demand between them as long as it's three stations on each hourly train. Or if there's genuine commuter demand to serve all of them on the same train, just serve them all hourly on request rather than muck the timetable up.

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
For the other stations, you could serve, say, Llanfairfechan, Penmaenmawr and Llanfairpwll one hour and Valley, Ty Croes and Bodorgan the other hour, I very much doubt anyone is doing a local journey between any of those stations. Obviously any of those could be swapped around if there is a genuine local demand between them as long as it's three stations on each hourly train. Or if there's genuine commuter demand to serve all of them on the same train, just serve them all hourly on request rather than muck the timetable up.

This is exactly how it was until very recently, Conwy, Pen, Llanfair were served one hour and stations from Bangor to Holyhead the other hour. This is a recent change not sure how recent, I am assuming the timetable change in September. Although some do still alternate a lot more now do all stations. Maybe as the winter is much quieter then time wont be lost stopping at all stations as many request stops wont be used.

It is all a bit of a mess heading east bound though at the end of the day. The last train from Llandudno Junction to Chester is 21.55 which is very early and between 20.25 and 21.55 so just in an hour and a half you get 5 trains heading that way!!! Would be great if we could have that service all day!

The Conwy valley has got a TfW branded shiny 153 back on it. It has been a little while since we had one of them doing the Conwy Valley.

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Why does the timetable along the North Wales Coast resemble a dog’s breakfast?

No Sunday trains in either direction before 0930 and then only one train per hour all day, with just one extra tea time Virgin train

No trains to Llandudno on Sundays between September and April, but I gather that this is being addressed from December?

I appreciate that there are a handful of Virgin trains operating on this route but the vast majority are operated for TfW.

Yes Sundays are a mess, first train West bound arrives at Holyhead on a Sunday at 11.44 (not much help for anyone on a Ferry) and the VT services to London from Holyhead you get 4 in the space of just 3 hours between 10.55 & 13.55 not really offering much choice. They should be more spread out throughout the day.

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

Y Ddraig Coch said:
Yes Sundays are a mess, first train West bound arrives at Holyhead on a Sunday at 11.44 (not much help for anyone on a Ferry) and the VT services to London from Holyhead you get 4 in the space of just 3 hours between 10.55 & 13.55 not really offering much choice. They should be more spread out throughout the day.

It'd tidy the timetable a lot if the VT could go hourly all day - I don't know if First have ordered enough new bi-modes to do this, though?

Y Ddraig Coch · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It'd tidy the timetable a lot if the VT could go hourly all day - I don't know if First have ordered enough new bi-modes to do this, though?

23 new trains to replace the voyagers they are quoting? I believe there are 20 sets of Voyagers out there at the moment so 3 x extra trains, I doubt that will be enough to send any more North Wales way sadly. Although they have promised direct Llandudno to London serivces in the summer which will be welcome.

Ianno87 · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I don't know, but it's certainly a good case for a Takt with the VTs laid over the top.

There are 2 basic services past Chester - 1tph Manchester-Llandudno and 1tph Cardiff-Holyhead, and vice versa. I can see no reason why those two should not be fully clockface with all the same calls each hour.

Stock is one of the reasons. For example, the loco-hauled Manchester trip.

If, after the morning trip, it ran a Llandudno service and back as per the standard hour, it gets back to Manchester too soon for the evening peak. Hence why it goes 'off takt' to Holyhead and back to 'waste' an additional hour or so (but also neatly providing a boat train connection at the same time). So it 'swaps' that hour with a Birmingham service which diverts to Llandudno in its place.

Standard patterns are great, but, such as in the example above, they can create some perverse consequences if followed to the n-th degree.

Plus along the coast, the smaller stations no doubt have localised peaks and troughs in demand for local flows for school, commuting etc. Do you stop every hour for few passengers (slowing down everybody else), or just tailor it to when calls are needed (but less 'neat' in terms of standard pattern)?

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
Standard patterns are great, but, such as in the example above, they can create some perverse consequences if followed to the n-th degree.

But the problem is that as soon as a single train during the main service day deviates from the standard pattern the entire benefit of it disappears. The key benefit is that you don't have to look at a timetable - in my youth, for instance, trains from Aughton Park to Ormskirk were at 09, 24, 39, 54 on a weekday. I even still remember that. No timetable needed.

There is no point in a Takt whatsoever if, give or take "overlaying" extra peak services with no change to the base pattern at all, it is not 100% consistent. You can maybe get away with it being 10, 25, 40, 55 in one hour, but if you put it at 07, 22, 37, 52 people are going to start missing trains.

I suppose you might have one train at 05something which is a bit off, but as one needs to look at a timetable anyway to find out the time of the first train this is less important - though it is a lot easier if you can sum up the day as "0509 then every 15 minutes until and including 2309", or somesuch. Or even if, like Merseyrail, you have your base half hourly service (09/39 in that case) which was the same on a Sunday, and the 24/54 are overlaid onto it at busier times (roughly 0700-1900 on Merseyrail) - you still know if you show up at 09/39 pretty much any time you're likely to want to there's a train.

It even works long distance. I simply know that at any time of day I'm likely to want it, from MKC I've got a Manchester at xx50, a Chester at xx40 and a Scotland via Brum at xx13, and that all of the xx40s connect with the xx13 behind at Crewe if you miss it. No need to bother checking anything. (It's maybe ironic that VTWC are quite good at the Takt thing given that most passengers probably use Advances these days!)

Plus along the coast, the smaller stations no doubt have localised peaks and troughs in demand for local flows for school, commuting etc. Do you stop every hour for few passengers (slowing down everybody else), or just tailor it to when calls are needed (but less 'neat' in terms of standard pattern)?

Yes, you stop every hour (or have it as a request stop if you're worried about wasting fuel on it). In the other hours it's a handy minute or two of recovery time for delays, then.

A Takt is not about making everything as fast as possible - if anything, you will probably choose to slow things down to gain consistency and reliability - it's about connectivity and predictability and the basis that those things outweigh simple speed.

Ianno87 · 11 Oct 2019

Not disuputing the principles of a Taktfahrplan, more pointing out 'what is the railway of North Wales for'?

Is it providing fast inter-urban journey times to compete with the A55 and make key urban centres (e.g. Bangor) accessible to from Chester, Liverpool, Manchester, etc.), or providing a regular 'social' service to every intermediate station?

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

Ianno87 said:
Not disuputing the principles of a Taktfahrplan, more pointing out 'what is the railway of North Wales for'?

Is it providing fast inter-urban journey times to compete with the A55 and make key urban centres (e.g. Bangor) accessible to from Chester, Liverpool, Manchester, etc.), or providing a regular 'social' service to every intermediate station?

It's a bit of both. Maybe that would lead to the view that the old joined-up Llandudno-Holyhead/Llandudno-Blaenau service worked better than what there is now in terms of the smaller stations?

It is a shame the WCML service can't be extended hourly to Holyhead (or at least Bangor) - that would solve the problem by providing a separate fast service. I suppose the plan to have 3 services per hour on the Coast - Liverpool-Llandudno, Manchester-Bangor and Cardiff-Holyhead - will allow the local stops to be dropped from one of those - though it's an interesting question as to which it should be - based on demand I suspect it would make more sense to make the Cardiff one the local and the other two semifast (but to put a Conwy stop in the Manchester due to the significant suppressed tourist demand), but I suspect that would be politically unpalatable so it'll be the other two.

hexagon789 · 11 Oct 2019

I'm sure I read in a book that BR looked at having a regular-interval timetable UK-wide in the early 1980s. The various regions agreed enthusiastically but stipulated that their "best" trains must still be allowed to run at their traditional times even if this broke the pattern.

I believe the chap in charge gave up and only the Scottish Region adopted something like a taktfahrplan, though that was gradually eroded over the years.

In the case of the NWC it's difficult to balance the needs of long-distance, local and commuter traffic with some of the stops. Trying to decide on the calling patterns to use all day isn't straightforward as I see it.

Bletchleyite · 11 Oct 2019

hexagon789 said:
I'm sure I read in a book that BR looked at having a regular-interval timetable UK-wide in the early 1980s. The various regions agreed enthusiastically but stipulated that their "best" trains must still be allowed to run at their traditional times even if this broke the pattern.

You can still have "crack expresses" in a Taktfahrplan, they just have to fit on top of the standard pattern in addition to it.

hexagon789 · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You can still have "crack expresses" in a Taktfahrplan, they just have to fit on top of the standard pattern in addition to it.

From what I remember of the article, the departure slots would've been quite random for many InterCity services and the region's wanted to retain fixed departure times for these 'crack' trains and somehow it wouldn't fit and ended in a stalemate. I see of I can find the piece.

Ianno87 · 11 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
You can still have "crack expresses" in a Taktfahrplan, they just have to fit on top of the standard pattern in addition to it.

The WCML is relatively 'takt', but all the morning 'Pullman' fast trains only fit because the morning peak is designed around them (so is completely off pattern in the London-bound direction), before then dropping into the standard hour after about 0930 or so.

On a constrained railway, you do one or do the other - both at the same time seldom works.

43055 · 11 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Why does the timetable along the North Wales Coast resemble a dog’s breakfast?

Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of trains operating, although they should have more carriages

No attempt at a clock face frequency, which results in tight/missed connections at Chester for Liverpool and Manchester.

Irregular stopping patterns, Colwyn Bay and even Rhyl are omitted on some services

Varying terminating stations, Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno, Llandudno Junction, Crewe, Chester, London, Manchester, Manchester Airport, Cardiff, Birmingham International, Shrewsbury, there are probably more!

Request stops even at some busy stations, eg Conwy

2+ hour gaps in service at Conwy and at local Anglesey stations

First east bound train great at circa 0430, but last one around 2030 from Holyhead

Last Welsh bound Saturday train from Chester on a Saturday is circa 2230 (0040 every other night)

No Sunday trains in either direction before 0930 and then only one train per hour all day, with just one extra tea time Virgin train

No trains to Llandudno on Sundays between September and April, but I gather that this is being addressed from December?

I appreciate that there are a handful of Virgin trains operating on this route but the vast majority are operated for TfW.

I hope this does not sound like a rant, it’s not meant to be - just inquisitive!!

I can see where you are coming from and I do use the NWC a bit but not that often. Hopefully I can answer some of these points below but I cant speak for Sunday services.

VT:
Generally runs as 'extras' to the TFW services and is largely for the boat and leisure market although there are peak services to and from London. They are restricted by the WCML timetable but do fall into a hourly service from Chester. In the last few years the 0910 from London and 1358 from Holyhead has become a 10 car set.

TFW:
Largely does have three routes:
Manchester - Chester - All stations to Llandudno (hourly)
Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester semi fast to Holyhead (2 hourly)
Cardiff - Shrewsbury - Chester semi fast to Holyhead (2 hourly)

For Saturdays these work well together as they link to form a 30 min service between Chester and 'Junction' with departures at approximately xx:25, xx:55 from Chester and xx:25 and xx:53 from Junction with the Llandudno units operating a 'shuttle' in-between.

Weekdays is a bit different. The Birmingham's and Cardiff's largely run the same times but have the additional wag set in operation. For the evening peak a extra 158 detaches off the back of a Holyhead train at Junction before returning back to Chester in service and does the same two hours later after attaching to the next Birmingham - Holyhead service. This then allows for the relevant Holyhead - Birmingham services to run non- stop between Junction and Chester. The omitting calls between Llandudno Junction and Holyhead may be down to turnaround time at Holyhead as most have around 10 mins or even less at times.

It is a lot different for the Manchester services as the capacity is required more at the Manchester end of the route. This is done through the 67 set but also attachments for a 158's in the morning? and 175's in the evening. To allow for an extra service in the evening as well the Llandudno departures move from xx:44 to xx:08 for a few hours as well. The 67 set is also used as extra capacity from Manchester in the peaks and to enable it to return in time for the evening peak a extra hour is added in the timetable hence why it continues to Holyhead (it is also a good boat train). This means that the 175 behind has to terminate at the Junction to pick up the hourly service going back to Manchester. To fill in the gaps at Llandudno the Conwy Valley set does a extra return to give an extra service.

Llandudno · 11 Oct 2019

43055 said:
I can see where you are coming from and I do use the NWC a bit but not that often. Hopefully I can answer some of these points below but I cant speak for Sunday services.

VT:
Generally runs as 'extras' to the TFW services and is largely for the boat and leisure market although there are peak services to and from London. They are restricted by the WCML timetable but do fall into a hourly service from Chester. In the last few years the 0910 from London and 1358 from Holyhead has become a 10 car set.

TFW:
Largely does have three routes:
Manchester - Chester - All stations to Llandudno (hourly)
Birmingham - Shrewsbury - Chester semi fast to Holyhead (2 hourly)
Cardiff - Shrewsbury - Chester semi fast to Holyhead (2 hourly)

For Saturdays these work well together as they link to form a 30 min service between Chester and 'Junction' with departures at approximately xx:25, xx:55 from Chester and xx:25 and xx:53 from Junction with the Llandudno units operating a 'shuttle' in-between.

Weekdays is a bit different. The Birmingham's and Cardiff's largely run the same times but have the additional wag set in operation. For the evening peak a extra 158 detaches off the back of a Holyhead train at Junction before returning back to Chester in service and does the same two hours later after attaching to the next Birmingham - Holyhead service. This then allows for the relevant Holyhead - Birmingham services to run non- stop between Junction and Chester. The omitting calls between Llandudno Junction and Holyhead may be down to turnaround time at Holyhead as most have around 10 mins or even less at times.

It is a lot different for the Manchester services as the capacity is required more at the Manchester end of the route. This is done through the 67 set but also attachments for a 158's in the morning? and 175's in the evening. To allow for an extra service in the evening as well the Llandudno departures move from xx:44 to xx:08 for a few hours as well. The 67 set is also used as extra capacity from Manchester in the peaks and to enable it to return in time for the evening peak a extra hour is added in the timetable hence why it continues to Holyhead (it is also a good boat train). This means that the 175 behind has to terminate at the Junction to pick up the hourly service going back to Manchester. To fill in the gaps at Llandudno the Conwy Valley set does a extra return to give an extra service.

Precisely - a dog’s breakfast!

LNW-GW Joint · 11 Oct 2019

You also have the perennial VT problem where at the first hint of engineering works on the main line they don't operate Chester/Holyhead services south of Crewe.
This seems to be a fixture at bank holiday weekends when the WCML usually packs up completely.
Part of the reasoning was I believe to use spare Voyagers to replace Pendos under the (unpowered) wires and for diversions off-route, but they don't seem to do that any more either.
The first London service on Sundays from Chester is not till 1128, followed an hour later by one from the coast.
A 2-hourly weekday VT service to at least Llandudno Jn would solve a lot of TfW's problems.

Ianno87 · 12 Oct 2019

LNW-GW Joint said:
You also have the perennial VT problem where at the first hint of engineering works on the main line they don't operate Chester/Holyhead services south of Crewe.
This seems to be a fixture at bank holiday weekends when the WCML usually packs up completely.
Part of the reasoning was I believe to use spare Voyagers to replace Pendos under the (unpowered) wires and for diversions off-route, but they don't seem to do that any more either.
The first London service on Sundays from Chester is not till 1128, followed an hour later by one from the coast.
A 2-hourly weekday VT service to at least Llandudno Jn would solve a lot of TfW's problems.

Also because Chester/North Wales is the easiest 'branch' to turn into a shuttle by terminating at Crewe - that option isn't really available for other routes.

philthetube · 13 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
But the problem is that as soon as a single train during the main service day deviates from the standard pattern the entire benefit of it disappears. The key benefit is that you don't have to look at a timetable - in my youth, for instance, trains from Aughton Park to Ormskirk were at 09, 24, 39, 54 on a weekday. I even still remember that. No timetable needed.

Fine on a line with a 15 min service but totally fails on th three hourly service if the school kide have a 2 hour wait to get home after school

krus_aragon · 14 Oct 2019

Another shortcoming is eastbound trains from Holyhead/Bangor in the evening peak:

The 1626 from Bangor calls at all stops to the junction, then fast to Chester (25m wait for a connecting stopper)
The 1716 runs the usual semi-fast service to Chester (skipping the request stops, Abergele and Shotton)
The 1810 copies the 1626, with a 15m wait for a connecting stopper

It's not very appealing for a medium-distance commuter.

The clockface timetable Arriva introduced 15 years ago(?) has been stretched out of shape because the continued growth in passenger numbers has outstripped the fleet size. We need a fresh influx of rolling stock to sort this one out. Thankfully, there's one on order!

Llandudno · 14 Oct 2019

krus_aragon said:
Another shortcoming is eastbound trains from Holyhead/Bangor in the evening peak:

The 1626 from Bangor calls at all stops to the junction, then fast to Chester (25m wait for a connecting stopper)

The 1716 runs the usual semi-fast service to Chester (skipping the request stops, Abergele and Shotton)

The 1810 copies the 1626, with a 15m wait for a connecting stopper

It's not very appealing for a medium-distance commuter.

The clockface timetable Arriva introduced 15 years ago(?) has been stretched out of shape because the continued growth in passenger numbers has outstripped the fleet size. We need a fresh influx of rolling stock to sort this one out. Thankfully, there's one on order!

Do you think they will have ordered enough stock?

Do you think they will attempt to introduce a clock face service?

krus_aragon · 14 Oct 2019

Llandudno said:
Do you think they will have ordered enough stock?

Do you think they will attempt to introduce a clock face service?

I'm accepting at face value that they will have ordered enough rolling stock for the planned services. I expect that they'll end up with a fairly clockface timetable, given that both the NWCL and WCML are to be recast in December 2022. They'll have a virtually clean slate, other than the hourly paths in Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool (which will suit a clockface timetable anyway).

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

krus_aragon said:
I'm accepting at face value that they will have ordered enough rolling stock for the planned services. I expect that they'll end up with a fairly clockface timetable, given that both the NWCL and WCML are to be recast in December 2022. They'll have a virtually clean slate, other than the hourly paths in Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool (which will suit a clockface timetable anyway).

Clockface just makes everything easier, as you only have to plan one hour of everything other than crew diagrams, and everything else follows. Not doing clockface just complicates it.

krus_aragon · 14 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Clockface just makes everything easier, as you only have to plan one hour of everything other than crew diagrams, and everything else follows. Not doing clockface just complicates it.

Two hours in this case (for Cardiff/Birmingham destinations). But yes, once the current rolling stock constraints are taken out of the equation, going back to a clockface timetable is the objious solution.

Llandudno · 15 Oct 2019

Fingers crossed they can simply the timetable with clock face frequencies and the London trains on top.

Even Northern have for the most part managed a clock face timetable on Chester to Leeds services, with the exception of the silly Ellesmere Port services, which really should be a single class 153 shuttling all day between Ellesmere Port and Helsby.

cle · 15 Oct 2019

If there was growth, could there be aspiration for hourly services out of Birmingham to at least Wrexham and Chester? Perhaps alternating along the North Wales route. A lot more useful than more services to Cardiff, if there was a choice.

Another consideration might be the new Liverpool-Chester Halton services, and where they would continue. Or indeed, if there was a faster second tph if they proved popular, acting as more of an express to North Wales (no Frodsham, Runcorn etc)

krus_aragon · 15 Oct 2019

cle said:
If there was growth, could there be aspiration for hourly services out of Birmingham to at least Wrexham and Chester? Perhaps alternating along the North Wales route. A lot more useful than more services to Cardiff, if there was a choice.

Another consideration might be the new Liverpool-Chester Halton services, and where they would continue. Or indeed, if there was a faster second tph if they proved popular, acting as more of an express to North Wales (no Frodsham, Runcorn etc)

The announcements at franchise start stated that the hourly Liverpool-Chester will split at Chester, continuing to Llandudno and Shrewsbury (continuing to Cardiff in alternating hours). The Manchester-Llandudno service will be diverted to Bangor as a result.The current timetable wouldn't work with an hourly Liverpool-Shrewsbury and North Wales-Shrewsbury service in their current timeslots: trains would end up conflicting at the single track north of Wrexham. I suspect that in the 2022 recast there will either be a slot change at Birmingham, or a speeding up of the Birmingham-Chester route, to avoid the conflict.

The current Holyhead-Birmingham service was a notable omission in the franchise announcements, which led to a fair bit of speculation at the time. Was it not mentioned because it's to be removed (or curtailed at Chester), or just because there were no changes to announce? I believe we came to the conclusion that it's staying as it is, but it's still an inference.

In summary, from 2022, the current plans are that you'll see a half-hourly train service southbound from Chester/Wrexham. In a two-hour period, you'll have two trains to Cardiff, one to Birmingham, and one to Shrewsbury.

Ianno87 · 15 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Clockface just makes everything easier, as you only have to plan one hour of everything other than crew diagrams, and everything else follows. Not doing clockface just complicates it.

That's how ATW started off with the current pattern in 2004...over time it inevitably goes off-clockface because of this that and the other.

Not due to sloppiness, but more due to trying to fo a "one size fits all" timetable upon a railway whose demand is not one size fits all.

North Wales Coast Timetable - Dog’s Breakfast.

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