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Advice sought - stopped at ticket barrier and issued unpaid fare notice

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SimonF

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I would welcome advice. My 16 year old son was issued an unpaid fare notice for £109 (the cost of a full fare standard single), due now to be paid by 25th October (I have queried aspects, so I have been granted an extension). My son, Alex, presented his ticket at the barrier and had not yet travelled. He had used a friend’s telephone to buy his ticket (low battery on his phone) and he had not realised that his friend had been using a railcard, and so he inadvertently failed to uncheck the box. The ticket was purchased on 15th July 2019 around late morning as a super off peak single, any route permitted, with an adult 16-25 railcard for £28.60 for travel from Castle Cary (CLC) to London Terminals, with the intention of immediate travel.

Am I wrong to feel this was rather punitive? He did not pass through the barrier, but was immediately issued the unpaid fare notice. Presumably there would have been discretion for the guard at the ticket barrier to direct him to purchase another valid ticket instead, which he could have got as off-peak? If they are within their rights to demand this payment, am I entitled to claim back even the £28.60? or may I deduct it from the notice?

Thanks for any assistance. Simon
 
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sheff1

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I am a bit confused. As far as I am aware, there are no barriers at Castle Cary. Are you sure the unpaid fare notice (UFN) was not issued on the train or at Paddington, after he had travelled ?
 
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_toommm_

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I am a bit confused. As far as I am aware, there are no barriers at Castle Cary. Are you sure the unpaid fare notice (UFN) was not issued on the train or at Paddington, after he had travelled ?

I read it as a ticket from Castle Cary to London, so I'm guessing the person got stopped at Paddington.
 

Fare-Cop

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Firstly. Llanigraham is correct, there are no barriers at the small rural station at Castle Cary and full ticket facilities are available there.

On the basis of the evidence suggested by the OP, it seems that the issue of the notice was correct.

Whilst it may be true that the traveller 'borrowed a friend's telephone' in this case, because the OPs son had a discounted ticket to which he was not entitled, the excuse 'Oh, my friend bought my ticket and I didn't know s/he had got a discount' is one of the most common heard by RPIs across the rail networks.

From the description given, it seems likely that there may have been a check by RPIs at the station and to any inspector making a check it would appear to be clear evidence of an attempt to use a ticket to which the traveller was not entitled with intent to avoid a fare.

I suggest that the only reason that an Unpaid Fare notice was issued was because of the travellers age. Had he been over 18 years of age it is extremely likely that a report for potential prosecution might have been filed instead. Given that the age of criminal responsibility is 10 years, theoretically a Youth Court matter can be considered, but quite rightly in my view never is by the TOCs. That is because of the general and sensible practice of always diverting matters involving juveniles away from the Courts as advised by MoJ to CPS prosecutors and these practices should be adopted by all prosecutors nationally.

In the scheme of life it is a minor matter and I suggest that the fare should be paid to avoid the possibility of costs escalating through extended correspondence. After having paid there is no reason why the OP might not seek a goodwill gesture from GWR that may result in a partial refund and I suggest that a well constructed letter might achieve the desired result.
 

SimonF

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Thanks for those responses. I understand that the excuse may be one frequently used by fare dodgers, but that does not make everyone a criminal automatically. The implication from the above advice from Fare-Cop, for which my thanks, seems to be that if anyone has ever made a genuine mistake they can nonetheless be penalised or prosecuted (rather than turned away) just for having their ticket checked at the barrier. This seems to be against natural justice, what happened to innocent until proved guilty? But if that's the hardened state we have come to then I will pay up. I appreciate the advice with respect to a well constructed letter. kind regards, Simon
 

Bletchleyite

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As the ticket on the phone technically hadn't been used (as it was not valid), presumably it can be refunded as unused less the £10 admin fee?

This all seems very bizarre, though (is he perhaps not telling you the correct story and he was actually accosted on the train or at Paddington?) - a barrier check, even with RPIs, blocking access to the platform before travel would normally just send someone back to the ticket office or TVM to purchase the correct ticket. Or was the UFN issued because he didn't have the money to pay for it?
 

Brissle Girl

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Thanks for those responses. I understand that the excuse may be one frequently used by fare dodgers, but that does not make everyone a criminal automatically. The implication from the above advice from Fare-Cop, for which my thanks, seems to be that if anyone has ever made a genuine mistake they can nonetheless be penalised or prosecuted (rather than turned away) just for having their ticket checked at the barrier. This seems to be against natural justice, what happened to innocent until proved guilty? But if that's the hardened state we have come to then I will pay up. I appreciate the advice with respect to a well constructed letter. kind regards, Simon

It's very difficult for the rail industry to make a correct judgement as to who is deliberately seeking to avoid correct payment (or indeed any payment at all), and who has made a genuine mistake, so inevitably judgment is often set aside for an objective position based on the facts of the case. Unfortunately that does mean that some genuine mistakes end up being treated harshly.

As to whether your son should have just been turned back and told to get another ticket, railway bylaws do talk about intention to travel without having paid the correct fare, excerpt below:-

(1) No person shall buy a ticket on behalf of another intending to enable another person to travel without having paid the correct fare.

(2) No person shall transfer or produce a ticket on behalf of another person intending to enable that other person to travel without having paid the correct fare.

So whilst one could debate the point about whether there was intent, in the railway employee's mind, it comes back to using the objective measure rather than relying on judgement.

Unfortunately we're seeing quite a few cases on here where people have been tripped up by using an app, rather than a good old-fashioned ticket, which I presume was available at Castle Cary, either from the ticket office or the TVM. (e.g. buying the ticket once on the train, which is not allowed, to avoid fraud). It's why I will only use an app if it is the only sensible option available, which it rarely is with a bit of planning.
 

Bletchleyite

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An app is never the only option; if there is no ticketing facility on the station at all you can board and pay at the first opportunity that presents itself.
 

Lemmy99uk

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Unfortunately we're seeing quite a few cases on here where people have been tripped up by using an app, rather than a good old-fashioned ticket, which I presume was available at Castle Cary, either from the ticket office or the TVM. (e.g. buying the ticket once on the train, which is not allowed, to avoid fraud). It's why I will only use an app if it is the only sensible option available, which it rarely is with a bit of planning.

Actually, it’s not clear that an app was being used at all.
If the ticket was purchased on an app on a friend’s phone then how was the friend intending to travel?

It seems more likely that the ticket was purchased on line and a paper ticket collected from the TVM.

Perhaps the op can clarify?
 

Brissle Girl

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An app is never the only option; if there is no ticketing facility on the station at all you can board and pay at the first opportunity that presents itself.
Agree, but it could be the only realistic option, as in the instance where you might arrive one minute before your train with not enough time to buy a ticket.
 

island

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Can we get clarification whether the OP’s son was spoken to by a staff member prior to any travel taking place? If this was the case, then it seems strange that he was not offered the option to go and purchase an acceptable ticket. The other alternative, I suppose, was for the staff member to have reported him for prosecution for attempted fare evasion. Issuance of an unpaid fare notice prior to travel would be quite unusual.
 

Bletchleyite

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Can we get clarification whether the OP’s son was spoken to by a staff member prior to any travel taking place? If this was the case, then it seems strange that he was not offered the option to go and purchase an acceptable ticket. The other alternative, I suppose, was for the staff member to have reported him for prosecution for attempted fare evasion. Issuance of an unpaid fare notice prior to travel would be quite unusual.

This is why I wonder if he requested one as he didn't have the means to pay for the alternative ticket (and nor did his friend, having already paid for one on the phone)?
 

ainsworth74

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Can we get clarification whether the OP’s son was spoken to by a staff member prior to any travel taking place? If this was the case, then it seems strange that he was not offered the option to go and purchase an acceptable ticket. The other alternative, I suppose, was for the staff member to have reported him for prosecution for attempted fare evasion. Issuance of an unpaid fare notice prior to travel would be quite unusual.

I think this, for me, is a crucial question in this case. I find it hard to believe that an RPI confronted with a 16 year old before they've travelled would issue a UFN rather than sending them back to the ticket office to sort the matter out.

@SimonF I obviously don't know anything about your son or the kind of relationship you have with them but is there any chance at all that they might be fudging the sequence of events that they've told you about? What you've described makes far more sense if they had been caught either on the train itself or at Paddington rather than before the journey started.
 

SimonF

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Yes - many thanks all. I really appreciate these posts. I have accepted all along that my son's account might be unreliable or dishonest. What led me to these forums was the total unwillingness of the Prosecutions department at Great Western Railway to engage in debate with me about these circumstances or their rationale for issuing the UFN. They state in their most recent email to me "when stopped by the inspector, Alex was unable to produce a valid ticket. I can appreciate that Alex presented his ticket at the barrier and had not yet travelled. The National Rail information on this subject states that “if you board or attempt to board a train”. Alex was attempting to travel with a ticket which was discounted with a railcard. As Alex was unable to show a railcard to make his ticket valid, the inspector correctly issued him with the notice. The inspector did not give Alex the option to pay a surcharge as the travel irregularity had already taken place." The UFN itself has the box ticked for being issued "at the station". My son insists he presented his ticket at the barrier, and was immediately asked to stand aside and then was told to go into a room where he was asked for details and handed the UFN. He said there were no further conversations. I can accept the view that he tried to travel without a valid ticket. But it's also possible, at the other end of the spectrum, that he was essentially bullied. I will ask him again and post later. Regards, Simon
 

island

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Did he proceed to travel to London?

It’s worth noting that a UFN is an acknowledgment of a debt and a promise to pay it, but Alex is a minor and debts aren’t enforceable against him.
 

SimonF

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thanks again. Just spoke to my son. He is quite level headed. He bought his ticked in the station on his friend's phone within an app. His friend passed through the barriers, where the inspector was, then passed back the phone for my son to present. That's when the ticket inspector noted the lack of railcard. My son asked if he could buy a full ticket, and was told not. The inspector called over a colleague, who took Alex aside and noted down his details in the UFN. My son was not sure what was going on, and asked again whether he could buy a full ticket, to which the answer was no. He says that they were perfectly nice in manner to him, but adamant that they were issuing the notice. Nor did he raise his voice or be evasive. At this stage I can only take his word for it, since they have not provided (actually been willing to provide) any other account. You views welcome. I didn't realise UFN is an unenforceable debt, but can the parents be held liable? Regards, Simon
 

SimonF

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Yes, they let him travel then to London on the next train. He was with a group of friends, and says they were all witness to what happened at the ticket barrier.
 

furlong

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Well precisely when the company can or cannot insist on an anytime fare is not as clear as it might be, and, under pressure, the train companies recently conceded that their practice in respect of Penalty Fares was incorrect and offered retrospective refunds to anyone they had overcharged. The case you describe might be another situation where a train company has pushed the boundary slightly too far.

You could press them again to explain the precise contractual grounds on which they believe they are entitled to the anytime fare rather than merely the super off-peak.What the NRCoT says is:

9.1. Travelling without a valid Ticket (which includes, where relevant, any supporting
documentation such as a Railcard), or being unable to present them when asked is
a serious matter. Condition 6 sets out the only circumstances where you may board a
train
without a valid Ticket.
...
9.2. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in
Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following
measures:
...
9.2.2. To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly
served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or
special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train
that you are on

As he had not yet boarded the train he was of course still able to 'opt out' of making the journey: The apparent contractual provision to charge the anytime single would only kick in after he had boarded the train, so what provision is the company using here? I see nothing covering circumstances prior to boarding the train but it does not provide a reference for the "permitted in law" assertion which qualifies 9.2.2 (i.e. 9.2.2 does not itself provide any such authority).

The reply you quote also appears to mix up the criminal and civil aspects of the situation - the company's franchise agreement doesn't contain provisions allowing it to invent its own 'penalty' for an alleged criminal offence. If the company alleges that a criminal offence had been committed it can pursue a prosecution and let the courts decide upon any penalty.

So was he really not offered the opportunity to buy a complete new ticket at £43.30, either from the inspector or the ticket office or machine, with it being explained to him that he could get a refund (perhaps minus an admin fee) on the unused one he held? (There's no entitlement to pay the difference, but sometimes this is offered.)
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if the "passback" (not actually a passback in that sense, I assume, i.e. the phone had two tickets on it) is what got his "spidey senses" tingling?

I can see no reason why you would be held liable but if if remains unpaid and is not withdrawn by the TOC then he could be prosecuted. I wonder if the RPI wrote the UFN with the view that it would be a prosecution, but then the TOC prosecutions department decided otherwise?
 

furlong

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I should also have quoted
6.1. You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the
opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
 

najaB

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This seems to be against natural justice, what happened to innocent until proved guilty?
The RoRA makes it an offence to "travel or attempt to travel" without using available facilities to pay the correct fare.

I would say that presenting at the ticket barrier with an invalid ticket meets the criteria of attempting to travel.
 

Western Sunset

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I'm still rather confused as to the comment of "passing through the barriers" at Castle Cary. There is a single ticket window to the right of an automatic door which leads directly onto the platform. There are no barriers at Cary.

Initially, I thought the incident might've happened when the Glastonbury Festival was on, but that was the previous month.
 

SimonF

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I would say that presenting at the ticket barrier with an invalid ticket meets the criteria of attempting to travel.

Yes I can see that, although it would allow no room for inadvertent errors. Is the offence cited there criminal or civil? Can any company create such an offence? You could also argue, reduction ab absurdum, that just purchasing an incorrect ticket amounted to attempting to travel; there is clearly the intention to travel at that stage?

Thanks all, I will write again to GWR with a few of these points. I don't know about the barriers, that would presumably explain why my son said he couldn't use the barcode. There was evidently an inspector checking tickets; is it obvious where they would stand? Simon
 

najaB

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Is the offence cited there criminal or civil?
Criminal.
You could also argue, reduction ab absurdum, that just purchasing an incorrect ticket amounted to attempting to travel; there is clearly the intention to travel at that stage?
No. Because intent is inferred from actions. There's doubt as to his intentions when purchasing the ticket (he could have been buying the ticket for someone else to use), but considerably less doubt when he tried to use it to travel.
 
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