Are 'No Sunday Services' acceptable nowadays?

Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
Agreed - the lack of a Sunday service causes all kinds of trouble for me.

I have in the past considered living in Woburn Sands, I quite like it there and for the sort of place it is it's not *that* expensive. The lack of a Sunday rail service is one of the more significant reasons why I haven't done, FWIW. I mostly do weekends away by train - this is not an option from there, and I'm just not paying that sort of money for a taxi when I've paid a train fare I can't use because no service is provided.

It now has an OK bus service (hourly I think) which I would use, but as it's planning-gain funded and unlikely ever to make money it has no assured future.

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DarloRich · 14 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I have in the past considered living in Woburn Sands, I quite like it there and for the sort of place it is it's not *that* expensive. The lack of a Sunday rail service is one of the more significant reasons why I haven't done, FWIW. I mostly do weekends away by train - this is not an option from there, and I'm just not paying that sort of money for a taxi when I've paid a train fare I can't use because no service is provided.

It now has an OK bus service (hourly I think) which I would use, but as it's planning-gain funded and unlikely ever to make money it has no assured future.

It is £7 from MKC to Fenny in a taxi ( and as i basically live a the station that will do for a comparison LOL) so goodness knows what it is from Woburn Sands

Randomer · 14 Oct 2019

As much as I like the idea of Sundays being a day of rest some people don't have a choice but to travel on Sunday for work purposes. I've been caught by working in somewhere that doesn't have a Sunday service then needing to travel long distance from that place recently. Now driving would be an option but having done a 16 hour day and had less than 6 hours sleep would it be a safe one?

If you finish work well past the last Saturday train on one side of the country and then have to travel on a 3 or more hour journey to your next place of work there is no way you are going to try and make the journey on Monday morning or that indeed such a journey would be possible.

61653 HTAFC · 14 Oct 2019

Controller1701 said:
The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

***citation needed.***

matt_world2004 · 14 Oct 2019

Controller1701 said:
The great lord in the great book states that after spending six days creating that the seventh day is a day of rest and Sunday be that day of seventh.

I don't think bob crow was ever made a lord.

ag51ruk · 14 Oct 2019

70014IronDuke said:
I'm not so sure there are many as bad as this XC service, TBH. It really is poor in terms of starting so late. Same for Derby - Crew, as someone else has pointed out.

Derby - Crewe is currently constrained by the boxes/crossings between Derby and Stoke only operating one shift on a Sunday, and has been like this since at least the 1980s iirc. The new EMR franchise is due to introduce Sunday morning services in 2021, subject to Network Rail agreement.

cle · 14 Oct 2019

What is crazy to me is this polaralized narrative/spectrum in this thread of either retail frenzy, or people being stuck at home and in church.
Most travel is neither.

Tons of people work on Sundays across all industries and need to get to work (just as all people don't work 9-5), people visit friends, travel for sport and other leisure pursuits - yes shopping, but also socializing/eating/drinking... isn't Sunday the busiest long distance travel day? Weekends away, students, London trips etc... surely those mainlines still need feeding. Many countries run a weekend service which doesn't differentiate.

satisnek · 14 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
Would that be for church related purposes originally, perhaps? Or maybe to deliver the Sunday papers if they had such things back then?

Quite possibly, but there couldn't have been much revenue in it since these services were all withdrawn by the 1970s, at which time Sundays were still 'just as they had always been' (or was church attendance on the decline by then?).

30907 · 14 Oct 2019

satisnek said:
Quite possibly, but there couldn't have been much revenue in it since these services were all withdrawn by the 1970s, at which time Sundays were still 'just as they had always been' (or was church attendance on the decline by then?).

I can't think of any regular service in the UK which owes its existence/survival to church services (ISTR there was one in the IoM) - and yes, church attendance was declining then (but I don't think Sunday local trains were doing well by then; the SR in the London area certainly wasn't).

agbrs_Jack · 15 Oct 2019

Us in Congleton only get 6 services each way on Sundays until Northern sort their driver issues out

notverydeep · 15 Oct 2019

To provide some context to this discussion, I have looked at demand change for a major train operator in London, with publically available data. This shows that:

Weekday demand has grown by 58% since 1996.
Saturday demand has grown by 61% since 1996. It now exceeds weekday demand in 2005.
Sunday demand has grown by 100% since 1996. It now exceeds Saturday demand in 2006 and is 80% of weekday demand in 1996.
Boxing Day demand has grown by 399% since 1996. It now exceeds Sunday demand in 2007 and is 57% of weekday demand in 1996.

Across the week, all off peak times including weekends account for 57% of demand, weekday peaks the other 43%.

Looking I more detail at weekday demand:
Peak travel (about 55% of weekday demand) has grown by 54% since 1996
Off peak travel (about 45% of weekday demand) has grown by 65% since 1996

Breaking the peaks down:
Morning peak travel has grown by 49%
Afternoon peak travel has grown by 59%

Breaking the off peak down:
Early (before 07:00) travel has grown by 282%
Inter-peak (10:00 to 16:00) travel has grown by 41%
Evening (19:00 to 22:00) travel has grown by 95%
Late (22:00 to close) travel has grown by 209%

Off peak travelers are more sensitive to improvements (in economic terms they have a higher elasticity), so every passenger minute saved from an off peak journey opportunity brings more additional travel and thus more revenue (about 20%) than a minute saved from a peak journey…

This operator’s off peak, weekend and Boxing Day service frequencies and journey times have improved very significantly over this period, but of course employment, income and visitors have also increased and these too are significant drivers of demand growth. However I would suggest that for any lines where the demand in 2006 was good enough for a Saturday service, there should now be a Sunday service of at least the 2006 Saturday frequency and that Boxing Day should have at least the frequency of Sunday services in 2007!

Sprinter107 · 15 Oct 2019

satisnek said:
It's interesting how Sunday service provision has changed over the decades. In the Gents at Bewdley station there's a Kidderminster departures poster from 1962 (I think) which shows Sunday services operating in the morning only, from about 0800 to lunchtime. The post-Beeching period saw no Sunday servces at all, then they were reintroduced in the afternoon/evening only (this I can remember). Even today, the first Sunday departure isn't until about 0940ish.

I've got a 1962 timetable for the Kidderminster line and the trains did run all day on Sundays, not just until lunchtime. Hourly stopping trains to Birmingham, Cardiff to Birmingham trains plus some to Stourport and Bewdley.

Failed Unit · 15 Oct 2019

I guess other factors the bean counters consider is how much extra money will the rural railway get if it was open on Sunday?

Market Rasen had an all year Sunday service until the 1990s. Now it is summer only.

Do I still visit people in the area by train? Yes but need someone to drive me to Newark / Lincoln. So they railway hasn’t lost money from the long distance traveller or has it? Would I travel more frequently if I didn’t need a taxi to the bigger stations? Possible? Likewise instead of travelling Sunday evening I often go early Monday morning. Work around the lack of service.

In the summer the evening services are busier than the equivalent weekday service. Does this demand really disappear from September- May?

we will find out soon if there is no demand as EMR will introduce it all year round. But I find to see if demand exists you actually need to try it.

Deerfold · 15 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
Stoke to Manchester was supposed to go hourly but, until the Sunday working agreement can be sorted out, there's no point in advertising a timetable which cannot be delivered. In contrast, Leeds/Bradford to Skipton have both been increased to hourly from every two hours.

Leeds to Skipton has been hourly for some years. Recently, Bradford to Skipton and Leeds to Bradford (via Shipley) has been increased to hourly (some Bradford to Shipley services have been replaced with these).

Mike99 · 15 Oct 2019

Growing up in the 60's and 70's close to Birkbeck station, The Beckenham Junction to London Victoria/London Bridge didn't operate on a Sunday, checking RTT for this Sunday there doesn't seem to be a service linking Beckenham Junction and Crystal Palace, I really can't remember some of the intervening years. Birkbeck however does get the Tramlink service Mo-Su serving Beckenham and Croydon etc.

Am Broc · 15 Oct 2019

geoffk said:
The Glasgow Subway has odd hours on a Sunday, 10.00 until 18.12 (sic). I assume just one shift but not very user-friendly.

I wonder if the new driverless trains will enable better opening hours on Sundays - and better off-peak service frequencies?

Trainfan2019 · 15 Oct 2019

agbrs_Jack said:
Us in Congleton only get 6 services each way on Sundays until Northern sort their driver issues out

Has Congleton ever had an hourly or even a 2 hourly Sunday service?

agbrs_Jack · 16 Oct 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
Has Congleton ever had an hourly or even a 2 hourly Sunday service?

nope. Went from 3tpd to 5 then 6 last December.
Note sure about pre-2000

geoffk · 16 Oct 2019

Deerfold said:
Leeds to Skipton has been hourly for some years. Recently, Bradford to Skipton and Leeds to Bradford (via Shipley) has been increased to hourly (some Bradford to Shipley services have been replaced with these).

My mistake. Perhaps I meant Ilkley! But anyway some of the "triangle" Sunday services have been improved, in contrast to what's happening on the Manchester side.

jfollows · 16 Oct 2019

agbrs_Jack said:
nope. Went from 3tpd to 5 then 6 last December.
Note sure about pre-2000

In 1977 (when I went to school in Manchester by train from Prestbury or Macclesfield) on Sundays there was a roughly two-hourly service Stafford (or Stoke) - Manchester which stopped at Congleton. 09:47, 11:50, 14:17, 16:17, 18:29, 20:21 & 22:20 down; 09:04, 11:10, 13:10, 15:20, 17:20, 19:20, 21:24 & 22:45 up.
All stations except Norton Bridge and Etruria, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

geoffk · 16 Oct 2019

Two of the practical issues mentioned are signal box shifts and Sundays outside the working week. The first will be resolved in due course by resignalling, the second requires patient negotiation with the Unions. It's interesting that the UK has a more liberal Sunday trading regime than many continental countries, yet has worse public transport on that day. German-speaking countries have the most limited shopping hours in Europe with virtually nothing open on a Sunday. It's not just about shopping of course. Anyone who travels by road on a Sunday knows how many people are out and about, especially in the late afternoon and evening.

Silver Cobra · 16 Oct 2019

DarloRich said:
Not in Scotland! Shops should be open as normal in England. Bloody bible bashers!

It's not just Christians you'd have to convince to get shops to be open longer on Sundays in England and Wales. I mentioned this in another thread before, but you'd have to convince one of the biggest retail unions to change their stance on it too:

https://www.usdaw.org.uk/Campaigns/Keep-Sunday-Special

Granted, this campaign was mainly in 2016, but I doubt Usdaw's stance has changed since then.

satisnek · 16 Oct 2019

Sprinter107 said:
I've got a 1962 timetable for the Kidderminster line and the trains did run all day on Sundays, not just until lunchtime. Hourly stopping trains to Birmingham, Cardiff to Birmingham trains plus some to Stourport and Bewdley.

That's interesting - maybe there's a bit missing off the bottom of the poster...

agbrs_Jack · 17 Oct 2019

jfollows said:
In 1977 (when I went to school in Manchester by train from Prestbury or Macclesfield) on Sundays there was a roughly two-hourly service Stafford (or Stoke) - Manchester which stopped at Congleton. 09:47, 11:50, 14:17, 16:17, 18:29, 20:21 & 22:20 down; 09:04, 11:10, 13:10, 15:20, 17:20, 19:20, 21:24 & 22:45 up.
All stations except Norton Bridge and Etruria, Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme.

So it's now worse. Even more reason for Northern to sort out their driver issues and meet their franchise commitments.

chefchenko · 18 Oct 2019

Trainfan2019 said:
Derby to Crewe has no trains until the afternoon on Sundays. Stoke to Manchester stopper on Sundays only every 3 hours all day - surprising really as I would thought there would be more demand for a city the size of Manchester. Were these 2 routes always this level of service on Sundays?

From my station congleton there is demand but northern don’t keep to the franchise agreement and fob us off

Journeyman · 18 Oct 2019

Up until surprisingly recently, there was no Sunday service on the Far North Line due to the influence of the Wee Frees, with their obsessive Sabbath observance - those of the chaining-up-the-swings-in-the-park mentality. It's lost its influence on the mainland a bit, but still felt in the Protestant bits of the Outer Hebrides, where Sunday ferries were fiercely resisted for many years, and a recent attempt by an arts centre to show films on a Sunday resulted in a Father Ted-style protest.

Are 'No Sunday Services' acceptable nowadays?

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