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Onboard announcements on buses set to become standard?

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jon0844

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I'm quite amazed and somewhat disappointed that some people are against anything that helps others, for somewhat selfish reasons.

Making buses truly accessible shouldn't be optional. It shouldn't even need to become law to happen. It gets done because people care about others.

And if it costs money, so what? We pay tax to fund healthcare for others and probably prefer it if we're not having to go to hospital ourselves.

If a bus engine fails, the bus doesn't run. If the door fails, it doesn't run. Wipers stop working.. So why wouldn't bus information be treated the same? Make it part of the morning check.

Why should it fail anyway? No need for moving parts in any modern system (HDD) and screens can go on forever if properly designed. The chances of a bus being taken out of service is tiny, but even that small chance ensures an operator won't simply turn it off and not care.

In any case, it isn't just for the blind. I can use an app but I still prefer to know exactly what stop to get off at. Even more useful in towns where there are multiple stops and I've been known to get off one or even two stops too early. Great for a bit of exercise perhaps, but if you don't know the area then you're now navigating on foot.
 
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markymark2000

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I don't think arguing for equality until it costs money really gets anywhere. I absolutely agree that passengers should not be charged more, but inmost European cities, the announcements and screens were put in years ago, people are used to them, and state-run transport companies mean that fares can be subsidised in order to be kept down, even through service improvements.
I don't see anyone complaining about Stagecoach Gold or Arriva Sapphire, even though the introduction of these services almost certainly pushed prices up.
Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months. Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy. If certain buses are very busy and a lot of impaired people use them, I can see the point of it. I don't however see the point in it when these people very rarely use the bus and persuading the majority of them to use the bus would work about as well as asking your local councillor to get the bus.

We don't need announcements on buses. European cities have it but it doesn't mean it's needed. While I can see the appeal, I think it will be a waste of money on the majority of routes.

As for Stagecoach Gold, I can only speak for those near me and we had 5 Gold routes in the area. Not 1 has announcements. The next stop screens don't even work on them to be fair, they just show the CCTV.

Most of the time, announcements don't work even when they are installed so on that basis, you are no different to now except the fact it has cost the operators to install such systems and it is more for people to maintain and if it becomes part of First Use checks, most buses will be stuck in the garage anyway so no buses anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

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Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy

But that's not the point. We want more people to use buses - far more than currently do. Just keeping existing users and managing decline as they die off (as they are mostly older people) is not a sustainable future.

If you don't think making bus services actually good makes people use them go and look at the demographic of bus users in London, or in Alex Hornby-land.
 

jon0844

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Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months. Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy. If certain buses are very busy and a lot of impaired people use them, I can see the point of it. I don't however see the point in it when these people very rarely use the bus and persuading the majority of them to use the bus would work about as well as asking your local councillor to get the bus.

We don't need announcements on buses. European cities have it but it doesn't mean it's needed. While I can see the appeal, I think it will be a waste of money on the majority of routes.

As for Stagecoach Gold, I can only speak for those near me and we had 5 Gold routes in the area. Not 1 has announcements. The next stop screens don't even work on them to be fair, they just show the CCTV.

Most of the time, announcements don't work even when they are installed so on that basis, you are no different to now except the fact it has cost the operators to install such systems and it is more for people to maintain and if it becomes part of First Use checks, most buses will be stuck in the garage anyway so no buses anyway.

Where the heck do you get the idea everything costs 10x as much?

And can you stop to think why people who are blind, deaf or in a wheelchair don't travel so much? In many cases it is very difficult to get around because things aren't accessible.

We should strive to improve things, which we are doing through legislation. And almost everything that helps someone who has a disability benefits everyone.

When I sprained my ankle, I realised the real value of using lifts or even shallow ramps over stairs. When we had a child, the buggy was an eye opener about how a wheelchair would get about.

And screens and audio to show destinations benefit tourists and other non-locals. Probably even benefits locals too, as not everyone uses public transport regularly. I don't know every single street in my locality, let alone around the UK.
 

richw

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First kernow have announcement and LED next stop displays on all the 18 and 68 plate vehicles in the fleet. It’s connected to the destination display on these buses, so for it to work correctly the destination blind needs to be set correctly.

I believe it’s a later added part of DDA but only applies to buses newer than 2017(?)
 

jon0844

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First kernow have announcement and LED next stop displays on all the 18 and 68 plate vehicles in the fleet. It’s connected to the destination display on these buses, so for it to work correctly the destination blind needs to be set correctly.

I believe it’s a later added part of DDA but only applies to buses newer than 2017(?)

And of course a correct destination is essential too, so shouldn't be a problem. A modern ticket machine could probably drive the screens, send the location for real time bus tracking and more. The driver has his or her diagram managed by the machine, so everything is taken care of.
 

deanmachine

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I'm a driver for Go North East and we have them on every bus at our depot apart from the old Wright Solars. Most regular users just tune them out, and I barely notice them as a driver anymore, although do find myself repeating our terminus message at the same time that the announcer is saying them!

I don't see the problem with them, I think they're great, and before I was a driver I used to use them when visiting areas I wasn't familiar with. Even as a driver I use them, when a passenger gets on and asks for a destination I can tell them "listen for the announcements saying *whichever stop*" they come to the front of the bus without having to be prompted 90% of the time after that. As for reliability of the systems, the new ones are pretty good, not many failures at all, and our older systems (from 63 plate buses) have just been upgraded from Windows XP to Linux to help with reliability of the systems.

I just don't see the problem of making travel easier for more people? If you find it annoying put on headphones like most people do anyway.
 

geml90

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In County Durham some of the Arriva buses have the LCD screen and audio announcements now. It only announces the next stop, other than at major stops (bus stations, market places, etc) where it also says "if you're leaving the service here please remember your personal belongings...". It also says when the bus is reaching the end of the route.

Recently in London I found the announcements quite useful. Not knowing the area I was staying in I used Google Maps the first time to see when the stop was coming up, but didn't need to again. On the local buses here the driver will let someone know when a stop they want is coming up, but I can see that would be more difficult on some services.
 

richw

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And of course a correct destination is essential too, so shouldn't be a problem.

totally agree. There is several routes where the destination is the same, but slight deviation of route so the stops are different. This isn’t visible on the display but only different on the announcements. I can’t just pick Newquay for the route number for example, I need to pick the right Newquay
 

Bletchleyite

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totally agree. There is several routes where the destination is the same, but slight deviation of route so the stops are different. This isn’t visible on the display but only different on the announcements. I can’t just pick Newquay for the route number for example, I need to pick the right Newquay

Enter the route number and scroll through for the endpoint would seem a sensible UI to have for this kind of thing (and bus companies need to pack in having route variants that aren't just short workings without a suffix because these are just confusing for everyone).
 

Deerfold

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Most of the time, announcements don't work even when they are installed so on that basis, you are no different to now except the fact it has cost the operators to install such systems and it is more for people to maintain and if it becomes part of First Use checks, most buses will be stuck in the garage anyway so no buses anyway.

It's not my experience that these systems usually don't work.

If they don't work that sounds like something that needs fixing, rather than abandoning after spending time and money installing them.

I used to analyse faults with the iBus system in London. Faults that resulted in no operation at all were very rare. The most common reason for the system not working was it being disabled by the driver.
 

Bletchleyite

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I used to analyse faults with the iBus system in London. Faults that resulted in no operation at all were very rare. The most common reason for the system not working was it being disabled by the driver.

Wilfully interfering with the operation of any system on the bus designed for passenger convenience when it is not faulty should be a sacking offence. If it winds you up that much, get earplugs or something.
 

richw

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Enter the route number and scroll through for the endpoint would seem a sensible UI to have for this kind of thing (and bus companies need to pack in having route variants that aren't just short workings without a suffix because these are just confusing for everyone).

From memory A5 Newquay to padstow has at least 16 different options on the blind for the 2 directions (and it doesn’t even have talking buses)!
The audible announcements get confused when there’s a road closure and diversion.
I find the announcements excellent as a driver, often get passengers asking can you let me know when we get to X, and I never remember! Also the next stop Is a reminder to driver on slight deviations, for example a service that once a day goes to a school. Hear it say the next stop is X school, and no excuse to forget to nip into the school.
 

Bletchleyite

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The audible announcements get confused when there’s a road closure and diversion.

That's something the computer will rarely handle properly and needs an override to make it announce something like "This bus is on an unplanned diversion. Please listen for announcements". Then the driver should stop at the first bus stop on the diversion, open the doors to allow anyone off who needs to, and make a suitable manual announcement explaining what is happening. Wouldn't be rocket science for it to know when it got back on route and start announcing again. For a planned diversion, the system should be updated accordingly.

Even the TfL one doesn't really get this right, it just shows * when it gets lost.
 

richw

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Wouldn't be rocket science for it to know when it got back on route and start announcing again.

it does fix itself when back on route so presumably a GPS link, so must be fairly simple to program it when the GPS deviates by more than a certain amount. It would need to allow some deviation to allow GPS discrepancies.
 

WideRanger

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It's another example of how the minority is inconveniencing the majority. I am all for equality but it's all extra costs to operators and where do the extra costs end up? On the fare payer. The visually impaired get on with their free pass so fare rises don't affect them.
I think this is pretty loose defining of minority and majority. Assuming 'majority' means 'more than half of the people affected', and not 'people who are not me', then it could be instructive to tally up all of the people who might find automated announcements useful.
  • People with a disability that makes it difficult to see where they are
  • People with a disability that makes it difficult for them to communicate directly with the driver, but who may need help to get the correct stop.
  • People from other areas that are relying on instructions when using public transport
  • People who may be a bit anxious about where they are and where they are going. That might include older people, children, or just anyone that is unsure.
  • People who aren't confident in English and may find it difficult to understand announcements on PA that might be muffled, in a strong accent that they are not familiar with and therefore difficult to understand.
  • People wanting help to find the correct stop, but conditions on the bus make it difficult to be close to the driver.
  • People who need to work, while on the bus, making it harder for them to focus on where the bus is at any moment.
  • On very steamed up buses / at night when it might be difficult to see where one it, even for experienced travellers.
We shouldn't generalise, but I suspect that the cases where the passengers in a bus are in one of the above categories form the majority on the bus is quite large. I have ridden public transport in many countries, and having easy to read passenger indications often makes the difference about whether a particular journey is realistic, especially when I can't effectively communicate with the driver.
 
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Seems a good idea, they have had this for years on the Tyne and Wear metro and as a passenger I hate it, but then I don't use it often enough to zone out of it.

When I was a bus driver you often got punters asking you to out them off at certain places, especially blind people. Unfortunately I had a habit of day dreaming and forgetting to tell them! Had to turn the bus around a few times.
 
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Robertj21a

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Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months. Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy. If certain buses are very busy and a lot of impaired people use them, I can see the point of it. I don't however see the point in it when these people very rarely use the bus and persuading the majority of them to use the bus would work about as well as asking your local councillor to get the bus.

We don't need announcements on buses. European cities have it but it doesn't mean it's needed. While I can see the appeal, I think it will be a waste of money on the majority of routes.

As for Stagecoach Gold, I can only speak for those near me and we had 5 Gold routes in the area. Not 1 has announcements. The next stop screens don't even work on them to be fair, they just show the CCTV.

Most of the time, announcements don't work even when they are installed so on that basis, you are no different to now except the fact it has cost the operators to install such systems and it is more for people to maintain and if it becomes part of First Use checks, most buses will be stuck in the garage anyway so no buses anyway.

What a disappointingly blinkered approach.
 

transmanche

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...and based on the current examples out there, 9 times out of 10, the announcements won't work...
I have made thousands of journeys on London Buses and iBus has worked perfectly on every single occasion, even when routes are diverted.

It's another example of how the minority is inconveniencing the majority. I am all for equality...
Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months.
Clearly you aren't 'all for equality' then. I suspect your attitude will change if you or a loved one eventually requires one of these accessibility features in order to use public transport.
 
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carlberry

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Why should it fail anyway? No need for moving parts in any modern system (HDD) and screens can go on forever if properly designed. The chances of a bus being taken out of service is tiny, but even that small chance ensures an operator won't simply turn it off and not care.
If by HDD you mean hard disk drive then that's a moving part that's very prone to failure, especially in applications where it's subject to movement. All equipment like this will have an average life expectancy but installing it in a hostile environment just makes it more prone to failure. Couple that with the likelihood that somebody will have to come in specially to fix it because it's a sealed unit or nobody at the depot has been trained to fix it (or even unit swap) and it would become a major issue if buses had to be taken out of service because of it.

This isn't meant to excuse companies for not fixing the equipment, however it can easily become a case of is it better to run a service without this facility or cancel the service.
 

lachlan

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Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months. Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy. If certain buses are very busy and a lot of impaired people use them, I can see the point of it. I don't however see the point in it when these people very rarely use the bus and persuading the majority of them to use the bus would work about as well as asking your local councillor to get the bus.

We don't need announcements on buses. European cities have it but it doesn't mean it's needed. While I can see the appeal, I think it will be a waste of money on the majority of routes.

As for Stagecoach Gold, I can only speak for those near me and we had 5 Gold routes in the area. Not 1 has announcements. The next stop screens don't even work on them to be fair, they just show the CCTV.

Most of the time, announcements don't work even when they are installed so on that basis, you are no different to now except the fact it has cost the operators to install such systems and it is more for people to maintain and if it becomes part of First Use checks, most buses will be stuck in the garage anyway so no buses anyway.
As a partially sighted person myself, your comments come across as extremely selfish, sorry.

Many disabled people can't drive, so taking the bus or train is their only option for getting around. It's not just audio announcements. It's staff training, step-free access, accesible info at bus stops, accesible toilets. Everything that helps a disabled person travel is, in my view welcome.
 

jon0844

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I meant there is no need for a hard drive these days. Solid state all the way. I put HDD in brackets as an example of a moving part that is no longer needed.
 

Bletchleyite

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I meant there is no need for a hard drive these days. Solid state all the way. I put HDD in brackets as an example of a moving part that is no longer needed.

If I was going to design some kit of that nature these days I'd probably consider basing it on some kind of large-screen Android tablet or probably more a HDMI-stick Android device and the actual software as an auto-launching app.
 

Statto

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National Express West Midlands have them on there platinum range, only annoyance is the upper deck display screen, is behind the front seats on the drivers side, rather than like the London ones were they're above the front window on the upper deck.
 

Deerfold

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I have made thousands of journeys on London Buses and iBus has worked perfectly on every single occasion, even when routes are diverted.

I've had problems with short term diversions.

If a bus company runs a trip where iBus is turned off, without a fault being reported to London Buses within 24 hours, London Buses may choose not to pay for that trip.
London buses will then get its contractor to fix the fault (or replace the broken bits). I can't remember the timescale for this.
 

jon0844

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If I was going to design some kit of that nature these days I'd probably consider basing it on some kind of large-screen Android tablet or probably more a HDMI-stick Android device and the actual software as an auto-launching app.

I wonder if the Ticketer machines can drive screens? They can track the bus and send the location back to base, so it would make sense. That's an Android based solution.

But plenty of other options would exist. I'm sure a Raspberry Pi could do it all and be super stable (as well as cheap to replace if ever necessary).

I assume the bus industry isn't like rail where you'd probably need approved and certified equipment that will cost a fortune.
 

ag51ruk

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I wonder if the Ticketer machines can drive screens? They can track the bus and send the location back to base, so it would make sense. That's an Android based solution.

Trent Barton have recently introduced Ticketer machines but have also kept their old Init machines, partly for people to use their Mango smartcard but someone also posted on here that the old machines are still needed for the next stop announcements and display screens. That may be a temporary measure though.
 

xc170

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Equality is good but it is starting to take the mic in the UK. Everything costs 10x more than it should do because we have to accommodate those who are visually or physically impaired who use public transport once every few months. Those who use buses regularly are generally rather happy. If certain buses are very busy and a lot of impaired people use them, I can see the point of it. I don't however see the point in it when these people very rarely use the bus and persuading the majority of them to use the bus would work about as well as asking your local councillor to get the bus.

I'm visually impaired and actually find your post rather offensive.

I apologies for wanting to use public transport.

I actually hope you develop one of the impairments you've complained about people having, it's the only way people like you will ever understand why what you've said is so unacceptable.
 

higthomas

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100% support them.
I now live in London, and find them very useful. Easy to tune out when not needed.

And I know multiple people who have said that they find knowing where to get off one of the things that puts them off buses (at least on of which would let Stagecoach buses in Oxford which don't have it go past in order to wait for the OBC ones which do).
 

markymark2000

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My view is controversial, I admit but it is my view. You all have your opinion and that is mine. Those with impairments do use buses currently and those who do, are generally happy with asking the driver where to alight or they just know where to get off presumably due to using the bus frequently.

I can see the point in announcements on routes which serve a lot of tourist attractions. Express buses it makes sense and also I can see the appeal if a route does generally have a fair few impaired people using it. However, if the route is a standard 30 minute local route with very few impaired people using such service, the announcements are unnecessary. I am not fully against announcements as I know they can be useful for some points. I do however believe that they need to be kept to few routes if possible or if you insist on them being on all buses, only major stops are announced.

If you live in London, you have had announcements for a while and have known nothing else for many years. To myself who lives in a city where the majority of buses don't have announcements and those which do, I avoid, I see it from the opposite side of the story. Don't fix what isn't broken sort of thing. It's just more and more cost which ends up with the fare payer in my opinion and that isn't on. Thousands have fare increases for that 1 visually impaired person who gets on once per year.
 
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