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Caledonian Sleeper

BRX

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Having the day coaches on the west end of the Fort William train is efficient in both directions.

Remember that the Fort William coaches used to be in the middle of 1M16 but will now be on the end.

So what's the new sequence south bound...

Aberdeen arrives first into far end of platform...
Ftw arrives behind it with day coaches behind the loco
Ftw loco pulls day coaches off via scissors crossover
? Something has to happen to get Ftw portion attached to the Abd portion and also both ob the far side of the scissors crossing. Done with the Abd loco?
Inverness portion arrives behind both and Inv locos are released via the scissors?
 
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JonathanH

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So what's the new sequence south bound...

I am travelling back to London by coach tonight so won't be able to confirm but at a guess, given that the Aberdeen / Fort William bit now needs to be on the back heading south:

Aberdeen portion arrives in platform 2
Locomotive heads off eastwards
Fort William arrives in platform 19, then heads off over crossover to reverse onto the East end of the train.
Locomotive and day coaches head off eastwards
Inverness arrives in platform 19
92 attached
73 detached and heads off eastwards
92 pushes Inverness portion onto the rest of the train.

(This appears simpler than the alternative of the Fort William 73 pushing the Aberdeen and Fort William bits onto the Inverness bit before decoupling the day coaches but clearly there are different options).

The Aberdeen arrives some time before the Fort William and Inverness portions. It was a bit easier when putting the Inverness bit on the east end was the last step in the process.
 

47271

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Things must be getting better if this is all that Dalton can write about as the Highlander went over to mk5s, one person complaining about room keys and coffee on the Lowlander. And no specifics on the food and toilet problems on the Highlander.

Come on Al, we need a breakdown on Slochd or an emergency stop and evacuation on the Tay Bridge if you want us to read your negative commentary.

Both of which could happen tonight of course, but this is pretty lame stuff if he's trying to have a new pop at CS.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all's well. I'm just saying that if we want to complain about something then we need significant facts to back up the argument.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ee-in-fresh-caledonian-sleeper-woes-1-5022571

Long-suffering passengers on Caledonian Sleeper’s new fleet have encountered yet more problems – being locked out of their rooms and coffee not being available in the morning.
The latest glitches follow a catalogue of faults and setbacks which have plagued the £150 million trains since they were introduced between Edinburgh, Glasgow and London in April.

Their launch on three routes to the Highlands on Thursday was accompanied by passengers complaining of toilet problems and lack of hot food.

Regular travellers said they had loved the previous service, but were surprised and annoyed to keep finding new things going wrong.

Sara Dorman, who travels weekly between Edinburgh and London, said: “The sleeper used to be the most reliable – you pitched up and you arrived.”

However, she has suffered everything from late boarding to lack of water, booking mix-ups and air conditioning problems.

The Edinburgh University academic said: “It’s striking how often there are new things, like the room keycards not working.

“The train was late for boarding and we then had to wait for staff to let us into our rooms. It affected everyone in my carriage.

“For at least the last two months, the service has been short staffed, and you cannot have breakfast in the lounge.

“But what’s really bugging me is there’s no coffee in the morning. I was told the boilers in the carriage are defective. It has happened to me twice.

“I was astonished something so simple was not manageable on supposedly state of the art equipment.

“The tickets are not cheap and it would be nice to get the basics you pay for.

“It’s all very frustrating. If there were only isolated things it would not be a problem, but it’s one thing after another that has not been sorted.”

But she added: “The staff are still lovely. It can be such a great service and I hope it can get working better.”

Rupert Soames, chief executive of Sleeper operator Serco, acknowledged the new trains’ difficult start by tweeting last week: “It’s been a long haul and thank you to our loyal customers and staff who have borne with us through numerous bumps along the way.”

Scotland on Sunday understands many of the problems relate to the trains’ sophisticated software and wrong “button pushing”.

Serco said there had previously been key card problems shortly after the fleet was launched.

Guest experience director Graham Kelly said: “We apologise to the small number of guests who experienced a problem with their room keys on Monday evening on the Edinburgh to London service.

“This was a result of human error in programming the keys for that evening.

“The new key system has been working well to date, well-received by guests and a significant service enhancement.”
 

6Z09

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Things must be getting better if this is all that Dalton can write about as the Highlander went over to mk5s, one person complaining about room keys and coffee on the Lowlander. And no specifics on the food and toilet problems on the Highlander.

Come on Al, we need a breakdown on Slochd or an emergency stop and evacuation on the Tay Bridge if you want us to read your negative commentary.

Both of which could happen tonight of course, but this is pretty lame stuff if he's trying to have a new pop at CS.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that all's well. I'm just saying that if we want to complain about something then we need significant facts to back up the argument.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ee-in-fresh-caledonian-sleeper-woes-1-5022571
A pretty accurate account of how things are ,and the continual short staffing brought about the strike,so he is correct there as well!
 

James James

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This is an unfortunate overlooked aspect of the design. For example, the OeBB Nightjet single deck stock has interleaved en-suite and normal rooms with an interconnecting door, so that a family of 4 can share a bathroom.
Would that fit in a UK loading gauge though? Bathrooms on the European stock are tight enough as is (same carriages are used by Czech railways too FWIW), I suppose you could rotate the layout but then you're using more of the coaches length which is going to be a non-starter.


But what's this stuff about having to lower/raise coupling and retract buffers on every join - are they not allowed to run the locos with Dellner's already raised, ready to connect? Wouldn't that actually be safer if the driver somehow fails to stop their loco prior to the coupling dance (unlikely, but...)?
 

Bletchleyite

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I really don't get why they bothered with the Dellners given that they don't avoid crawling around on the floor. Why they didn't just specify buckeyes I have no idea.
 

route101

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Spoke to a friend (non rail enthusiast) at the weekend, who quite often uses the sleeper, and her comment was similar to what many have said on here, which is that the new seats are considerably less comfortable than the old ones. (Haven't tried them myself yet)

More firm and upright for sure . Big difference is cost between seats and berth though
 

47271

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A pretty accurate account of how things are ,and the continual short staffing brought about the strike,so he is correct there as well!
I quite agree, and I'm first in the queue to dish it when they deserve it, especially when it comes to pressure put on the crew. All I'm saying is that he could've saved the piece until he had wee bit more material!
I really don't get why they bothered with the Dellners given that they don't avoid crawling around on the floor. Why they didn't just specify buckeyes I have no idea.
I don't know for sure, but is it the Dellners that have helped stop the awful forward and backward jiggling that we used to get on the mk3s?
 

James James

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I really don't get why they bothered with the Dellners given that they don't avoid crawling around on the floor. Why they didn't just specify buckeyes I have no idea.
Dellners are the future, like it or not. On the continent, even freight is starting to get them.

On top of better connections, the airpipe goes via the coupler - which should reduce the amount of cables being connected. And no need to crawl under a buffer to get to the brake cables, etc.
 

Bald Rick

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If Baldricks report of the Glasgow portion full on a Wednesday night in October is a regular occurrence that suggests Serco etc have turned around a decline that started when the West Coast Modernisation was completed as well.


Well, I only give the view of the crew I travelled with. I asked the lounge car host (a lovely lady) if the train was full - and the answer was “yes we’re full every night now, fewer cabins”.
 

BRX

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Video on youtube of the first revenue earning mk5 service on the WHL, early this morning

 

Scotrail84

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Dellners are the future, like it or not. On the continent, even freight is starting to get them.

On top of better connections, the airpipe goes via the coupler - which should reduce the amount of cables being connected. And no need to crawl under a buffer to get to the brake cables, etc.


There are a total of 8 jumper cables to be connected/disconnected coach to coach when splitting or attaching.

There are 3 to be connected/disconnected between loco and coach. 5 if you include to the brake and main res pipes on the coupler.
 

paul1609

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I notice that the Fort William portion didn't get away from Edinburgh until 0511 this morning so a second day for the timesaving diversion over via Falkirk High.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G65081/2019/10/15/advanced
Wasn't the train only routed via Airdrie to allow longer possessions on the Falkirk line for electrification anyway? I've been on at least a couple of UP trains that have pulled back 10 mins plus on Glasgow to Edinburgh via Airdrie, I think its mainly a question of pathing on that route rather than infrastructure restrictions.
 

JonathanH

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Wasn't the train only routed via Airdrie to allow longer possessions on the Falkirk line for electrification anyway? I've been on at least a couple of UP trains that have pulled back 10 mins plus on Glasgow to Edinburgh via Airdrie, I think its mainly a question of pathing on that route rather than infrastructure restrictions.

A byproduct of it going via Airdrie is that it can then stop at Glasgow Queen Street.
 

Kite159

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I notice that the Fort William portion didn't get away from Edinburgh until 0511 this morning so a second day for the timesaving diversion over via Falkirk High.
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G65081/2019/10/15/advanced

Looking at RTT, if it is more than 6 minutes late at Airdrie it will lose its path and end up behind the first stopper towards Helensburgh Central.

I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't return to going via Falkirk High at some-point with any day passengers from Glasgow wanting the train having to catch the 05:20 Oban service to Dalmuir
 

dubscottie

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I really don't get why they bothered with the Dellners given that they don't avoid crawling around on the floor. Why they didn't just specify buckeyes I have no idea.

Sealed gangways. You would need a Pullman rubbingplate with a buckeye which would mess with the gangway design.

Its also the reason why the Mk4s have tightlocks.
 

hwl

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Sealed gangways. You would need a Pullman rubbingplate with a buckeye which would mess with the gangway design.

Its also the reason why the Mk4s have tightlocks.
Precisely - it means you can get a twin inner and outer gangway which is far quieter and better thermally insulated (Dellner also happen to manufacture such gangways!)
 

Chew Chew

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Saw the new carriages in Aberdeen tonight.

They, the seats and lounge car, look really nice. Seats have plenty of pitch and the lounge looks comfortable but not too stuffy.

Staff appeared to be doing loads of checks.
 

47271

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Precisely - it means you can get a twin inner and outer gangway which is far quieter and better thermally insulated (Dellner also happen to manufacture such gangways!)
So no wheezing and groaning, and no backwards and forwards jiggling.

Speaking as someone who experienced all of the wheezing and groaning, and the jiggling, that's good enough reasons to use Dellners as far as I'm concerned.

It's just a shame that they didn't put the same work into vertical movement and rattling, or think about how to make the aircon as quiet as that on the mk3s...
 

dubscottie

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BR worked it out early enough on the Mk4s. A big damper between the drawbar and bufferbeam/body.

Most modern stock with sealed gangways seems to have this violent sideways movement that a damper would sort. Might not have one because the coupler is designed to collapse in a collision.
 

BRX

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Some footage (not mine) from on board the mk5s, to Fort William.

Seats don't look very busy!

The lounge appears a little sterile compared to the old ones... although, the stools at the window bar look like quite a nice place for morning coffee. Now we have been robbed of our droplights.

 

MrEd

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Some footage (not mine) from on board the mk5s, to Fort William.

Seats don't look very busy!

The lounge appears a little sterile compared to the old ones... although, the stools at the window bar look like quite a nice place for morning coffee. Now we have been robbed of our droplights.


I love the video and I must say that the Mk5s look great, I’m very excited about doing this journey (and the Inverness portion) for myself on the Mk5s. I’ll have to judge the ride quality for myself, but they definitely look inviting. Although the loss of drop lights is a shame on the Fort William route in particular, I’m going to say something controversial here- I much prefer the look of the Mk5 lounge cars to the old Mk2s- although maybe some dimmable lights might be good in the evenings, they look so much more inviting and fit for purpose than their Mk2 predecessors. The way in which the breakfasts are served in that video looks so much more professional, and I’m glad that they’ve replaced the leather settees (which unfortunately were not ideal on the Highlander, as so many passengers were wanting hot meals) with a row of stools with small tables. That way you can actually eat a cooked meal comfortably wherever you sit, and solo travellers will have more privacy (the lack of which was a common complaint on the old stock so the staff tell me; not one which I personally understood as folk had private cabins anyway, but there we go). The problem on the old Mk2 stock was that it was quite hard to eat a hot meal while sitting on one of the settees, which led (predictably) to a few frustrated passengers on busy trains. I also found the Mk2 lounge cars a wee bit too dark, and they were beginning to look dated. They’ve served the sleeper fantastically well for the last thirty years, but they were life expired in every respect. I have a feeling that once the staff shortages have been alleviated, the dining experience may be much improved with the Mk5s.
 

MrEd

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I wrote to Caledonian Sleeper on Twitter and they gave me a pretty good response. Basically based on customer feedback and advice from the police (??) they decided that offering shared rooms wasn't worth their while.

I’m very sceptical that BTP have had any input into this, as I rather think that they are busy enough with much more pressing safety and security matters than the mundane question (from a police point of view) as to whether strangers are allowed to share a sleeper berth (unless there are some new regulations about passenger safety on sleeper trains which I’m not aware of). On the basis of conversations which I’ve had with experienced sleeper hosts and team leaders for CS at Inverness and Fort William, I believe that CS are trapped between the proverbial rock and the proverbial hard place here. Folk don’t want fare increases, understandably, yet for the staff that I’ve talked to, until sharing was finally abolished, not a shift went by without someone (or many individuals) complaining that they were being made to share a cabin with a person they did not know (despite the fact that the possibility of sharing had been made clear when booking). In many cases, folk asked either to downgrade to the seats or to upgrade to first, which was not always possible with a busy or full train. I think that it soon became obvious to senior management that sharing with strangers was in fact a considerable source of complaints and dissatisfaction in the service (and also at odds with the high-end target market which CS, for right or for wrong, wished to pursue).

Apparently there was also a wider theme of passengers complaining about lack of privacy on the service, both in shared cabins and in the lounge car. I do feel that this is a pedantic complaint, but as the fares went up, I suppose management felt a more pressing need to heed it. This led to (at some point late last year) a bizarre (and entirely unsuccessful) experiment with an ostensible rule whereby passengers were not allowed to share tables with strangers in the lounge car (at least not in the evening). It soon became clear that this rule was absurd and nigh on impossible to enforce, and by the summer of this year (if not earlier) it had been forgotten about. Hopefully it has been put to bed for good and no attempts will be made to reintroduce it with the Mk5s!

I suppose that all these changes are part and parcel of the transition (whether we like it or not) from a convenient, good value overnight train into a high-end tourist ’experience’. I still remain to be convinced by the marketing strategy, but CS must be doing something right if they’re filling the train as they are doing at the moment. I do feel sorry for the poor passengers who do want to use it but who have been priced out of the market considerably. I wonder whether, in time, a Facebook group or similar may start (a wee bit like a lift-sharing organisation) whereby solo travellers with the same date, start point and destination can agree to share a sleeper cabin and share the costs of the journey. That way, the decision to share the cabin has been made willingly by its two occupants, and the TOC cannot be held responsible for this. This means not only a cheaper fare but also the knowledge in advance of who you’ll be sharing the cabin with- which will put passengers at ease much more than being told when you check in ’right, you’re sharing with X’. Perhaps this is something for regular travellers to look into?
 

47271

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I’m very sceptical that BTP have had any input into this, as I rather think that they are busy enough with much more pressing safety and security matters than the mundane question (from a police point of view) as to whether strangers are allowed to share a sleeper berth (unless there are some new regulations about passenger safety on sleeper trains which I’m not aware of). On the basis of conversations which I’ve had with experienced sleeper hosts and team leaders for CS at Inverness and Fort William, I believe that CS are trapped between the proverbial rock and the proverbial hard place here. Folk don’t want fare increases, understandably, yet for the staff that I’ve talked to, until sharing was finally abolished, not a shift went by without someone (or many individuals) complaining that they were being made to share a cabin with a person they did not know (despite the fact that the possibility of sharing had been made clear when booking). In many cases, folk asked either to downgrade to the seats or to upgrade to first, which was not always possible with a busy or full train. I think that it soon became obvious to senior management that sharing with strangers was in fact a considerable source of complaints and dissatisfaction in the service (and also at odds with the high-end target market which CS, for right or for wrong, wished to pursue).

Apparently there was also a wider theme of passengers complaining about lack of privacy on the service, both in shared cabins and in the lounge car. I do feel that this is a pedantic complaint, but as the fares went up, I suppose management felt a more pressing need to heed it. This led to (at some point late last year) a bizarre (and entirely unsuccessful) experiment with an ostensible rule whereby passengers were not allowed to share tables with strangers in the lounge car (at least not in the evening). It soon became clear that this rule was absurd and nigh on impossible to enforce, and by the summer of this year (if not earlier) it had been forgotten about. Hopefully it has been put to bed for good and no attempts will be made to reintroduce it with the Mk5s!

I suppose that all these changes are part and parcel of the transition (whether we like it or not) from a convenient, good value overnight train into a high-end tourist ’experience’. I still remain to be convinced by the marketing strategy, but CS must be doing something right if they’re filling the train as they are doing at the moment. I do feel sorry for the poor passengers who do want to use it but who have been priced out of the market considerably. I wonder whether, in time, a Facebook group or similar may start (a wee bit like a lift-sharing organisation) whereby solo travellers with the same date, start point and destination can agree to share a sleeper cabin and share the costs of the journey. That way, the decision to share the cabin has been made willingly by its two occupants, and the TOC cannot be held responsible for this. This means not only a cheaper fare but also the knowledge in advance of who you’ll be sharing the cabin with- which will put passengers at ease much more than being told when you check in ’right, you’re sharing with X’. Perhaps this is something for regular travellers to look into?
Sharing cabins with strangers was as archaic as not having the option of an ensuite - just about fit for the 1980s, but no more than that.

That said, it's interesting how different people have different views on privacy and safety on board the sleeper. I wouldn't share a room with anyone other than someone I know very well, but I find the idea of complaining that privacy is being invaded in the lounge as really quite weird. Do these people try to have other passengers barred from their table on daytime trains as well?

It might be a cultural thing - way back in First days I was in the lounge and there was a bit of distress from a passenger in discussion with staff nearby. The chap was American and was terrified to go to bed (he had a solo cabin) because he was convinced that his room would be broken into and he'd be attacked or robbed in the night. He was absolutely serious. They persuaded him to go in the end.

I've never heard the 'police advice' line either, I think someone's making things up!
 

Altnabreac

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I know people who previously wouldn’t use the Sleeper for business because their travel departments would only book the cheapest berth option available which might involve sharing and they weren’t prepared to do that.

They have now switched back to using the Sleeper because of a guarantee of a private room.
 

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