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Could extending PAYG in the London & South East area result in simpler fares?

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hwl

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ce-the-axe-in-2020.193480/page-2#post-4244691
Simplified fares and ticketing to create a modern railway to promote innovation and customer-focussed improvements across the network, including the further roll out of pay-as-you-go.

That will mean more expensive train fares as simplification means removing the cheapest fares and ensuring only 2 really expensive fares called single or return are available.
I'd argue that it won't be as harsh as that, the hint is in the last bit. The further PAYG bit is essentially extending TfL Contactless to the entire former NSE area which would see about three quarters of all UK rail (inc tube) journey with simplified TfL ticketing which is a quick and easy win with more gradual initial changes elsewhere. TfL solution is quick and actionable.
 
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Meerkat

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extending TfL Contactless to the entire former NSE area which would see about three quarters of all UK rail (inc tube) journey with simplified TfL ticketing which is a quick and easy win

Hasn’t that myth been totally blown away on here a number of times? Certainly not a quick win.
 

Meerkat

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There aren't enough Zones in the TfL system to do it, if I recall correctly. But it could be done with some work.

I thought there were big issues around max fare for missing touch outs, knowing which route was taken, and that zonal charging starts to fall apart a bit when the zones get too far out?
 

DarloRich

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I'd argue that it won't be as harsh as that, the hint is in the last bit. The further PAYG bit is essentially extending TfL Contactless to the entire former NSE area which would see about three quarters of all UK rail (inc tube) journey with simplified TfL ticketing which is a quick and easy win with more gradual initial changes elsewhere. TfL solution is quick and actionable.

I am cynical. Your idea seems sensible so will be rejected ;) ( although we do have contact less readers at Fenny Stratford. No way of using them, yet, but they make a nice coat hook!
 

hwl

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Hasn’t that myth been totally blown away on here a number of times? Certainly not a quick win.
That is why I said contactless not oyster as they have different backend systems, the later has issues the former doesn't, hence extension will be contactless only.
for example on TfLrail / Crossrail from 15th December you'll be able to use contactless at stations between Iver and Reading inclusive but NOT Oyster.
Ditto the proposed GTR extensions.

Mod Note: Contactless will only be available from Jan 2nd 2020, not when the service is taken over on Dec 15th.
 
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hwl

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I am cynical. Your idea seems sensible so will be rejected ;) ( although we do have contact less readers at Fenny Stratford. No way of using them, yet, but they make a nice coat hook!
As soon as DfT realised in summer '18 that most UK rail ticketing (inc tube which DfT keep forgetting about...) goes through TfL* and that ITSO was never going to beat TfL ticketing they started to see the light - quick, easy and cheap wins in NSE land. (It would also be cheaper for TOCs hence good for DfT...) All the TOCs concerned already interact with TfL on ticketing so it really is brain dead simple (even Grayling got it!)

*~40% of the GB total is TfL contactless with another 30% Oyster. Intercity is about 10% (more expensive pre planned so mobile /print at home) leaving 20% Regional ticketing to address via ITSO.

The majority of Tfl ticketing system use is now contactless rather than Oyster, the cross over point occurring in Summer 2018.

ITSO is like nuclear fusion always delivering in X years!
 

DarloRich

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As soon as DfT realised in summer '18 that most UK rail ticketing (inc tube which DfT keep forgetting about...) goes through TfL* and that ITSO was never going to beat TfL ticketing they started to see the light - quick, easy and cheap wins in NSE land. (It would also be cheaper for TOCs hence good for DfT...) All the TOCs concerned already interact with TfL on ticketing so it really is brain dead simple (even Grayling got it!)

*~40% of the GB total is TfL contactless with another 30% Oyster. Intercity is about 10% (more expensive pre planned so mobile /print at home) leaving 20% Regional ticketing to address via ITSO.

The majority of Tfl ticketing system use is now contactless rather than Oyster, the cross over point occurring in Summer 2018.

ITSO is like nuclear fusion always delivering in X years!

I do wish it was that simple. How am I going to travel, contact less, from Milton Keynes to Darlington and back for the match? I get NSE and my season ticket ( and my season ticket really should be contact less already ffs!) . I don't get short notice, long distance, mutli operator intercity travel.

PLUS overarching all that I maintain that simplification = more expensive.
 

hwl

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I do wish it was that simple. How am I going to travel, contact less, from Milton Keynes to Darlington and back for the match? I get NSE and my season ticket ( and my season ticket really should be contact less already ffs!) . I don't get short notice, long distance, mutli operator intercity travel.

PLUS overarching all that I maintain that simplification = more expensive.
You aren't - It very carefully doesn't say complete PAYG...

In general simplification = more expensive
 

Bletchleyite

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You aren't - It very carefully doesn't say complete PAYG...

In general simplification = more expensive

I could see us ending up with entirely separate regional and IC ticketing. Regional operators based on contactless/smartcards and a simple "if you touch in between these times you get peak, otherwise off peak", singles only, no BoJ (it would just be seen as two journeys), no splitting unless you get off and revalidate. IC based on prepurchase, train specific, all barcoded.
 

mmh

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There aren't enough Zones in the TfL system to do it, if I recall correctly. But it could be done with some work.

There don't need to be zones. Instead, this "simplification" of fares could just mean as many different fares as now, only with them hidden behind contactless bank card payment. That's "progress" apparently.
 

JonathanH

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I could see us ending up with entirely separate regional and IC ticketing. Regional operators based on contactless/smartcards and a simple "if you touch in between these times you get peak, otherwise off peak", singles only, no BoJ (it would just be seen as two journeys), no splitting unless you get off and revalidate. IC based on prepurchase, train specific, all barcoded.

You are right. That is an entirely feasible outcome.

However, the kind of blanket peak and off-peak times applying on TfL over longer distances on PAYG just wouldn't work because they don't reflect when you hit London.

The difference between peak and off-peak fares would be a pretty nasty shock for people who can currently make return journeys in the evening peak - some journeys in the NSE area couldn't be completed starting after 1900.

Break of journey is a big loss - I know there are fanciful ideas that fares could be structured to add up to the total but that isn't really feasible - the marginal cost of going A-B-C having already done A-B is not the same as going B-C.

Never mind, we'd learn to cope and change travel habits accordingly and it suits the people who travel most - ie point to point commuters.

On the other hand it does reduce the 'hole in the middle' type fraud.
 
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Bletchleyite

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You are right. That is an entirely feasible outcome.

While those on here wouldn't like it, and it would kill businesses like Trainsplit.com (indeed, all ticketing would be done directly with the operator and all sales sites other than the operators' own would presumably cease to exist), it is absolutely one thing - simple.

It also has parallels, basically being a hybrid of the Netherlands (which is rather like one UK regional TOC for the whole thing) and Italy (which has train-specific ticketing for all IC with no compatibility with regional ticketing, generally purchased directly with the operator). So it is technically feasible.
 

JonathanH

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it is absolutely one thing - simple

No it isn't. Let's suppose you set off on a long journey at 0900. When it gets to 0930 do you a) stay on the train and pay a peak fare for your entire journey or b) get off, touch out then in again and only pay a peak fare for the first 30 minutes and off-peak for the rest?

Is it simple that person A getting on at station A before 0930 pays a peak fare and person B getting on at station B after 0930 pays an off peak fare for travelling to station C arriving at the same time. That is exactly why time restrictions are defined based on arrival time in London rather than departure time from the first station.

Clearly you can set the system up like that but it isn't how Contactless currently works.
 

Bletchleyite

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No it isn't. Let's suppose you set off on a long journey at 0900. When it gets to 0930 do you a) stay on the train and pay a peak fare for your entire journey or b) get off, touch out then in again and only pay a peak fare for the first 30 minutes and off-peak for the rest?

I didn't say it was fair, I said it was simple. It is impossible not to be able to understand it. It is impossible, other than by not touching in or out, to get it wrong. Unlike CrossCountry's 0930 restriction (which is also simple) it is not possible to circumvent it by splitting unless you get off, leave the station and re-enter it. Everybody knows they can do that if they want, because the rule is really simple.

Is it simple that person A getting on at station A before 0930 pays a peak fare and person B getting on at station B after 0930 pays an off peak fare for travelling to station C arriving at the same time.

Yes, it's simple. It's perhaps not fair, but it is definitely simple.

Simpler fares generally will be less fair because they can't take into account nuances of what individuals do, otherwise they would cease to be simple.

That is exactly why time restrictions are defined based on arrival time in London rather than departure time from the first station.

Clearly you can set the system up like that but it isn't how Contactless currently works.

Yes, it is. TfL peak/off peak is based on when you touch in, not out.
 

JonathanH

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Yes, it is. TfL peak/off peak is based on when you touch in, not out.

You have slightly misinterpreted my wording - of course that is how TfL peak / off peak is done.

I am suggesting that the further the simple approach is extended the more unfair it becomes unless you use the current 'NSE' approach of setting the validity times for off-peak fares in a fairly intelligent and structured manner - I'm aware that there are (or maybe were?) a handful of easements in the TfL system - e.g. for Chesham.

Do you genuinely think a blanket 0430-0930, 1600-1900 peak should be applied based on touch in time across the South East? (I'm assuming that the TOCs / DfT wont sign up to a 0430-0630 off-peak period across the whole area due to revenue loss.)
 
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JonathanH

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On another matter, I would imagine that it would be logical to withdraw the Network Railcard if PAYG were implemented. It's continuation just wouldn't make sense.

Family Railcard can't really be applied in a PAYG world - in London they get round this with either free travel for 5-10 or heavily reduced travel with a Zip Oyster card. Is it reasonable to keep Family Railcard (and Two Together Railcard) for long distance journeys outside each region only in the PAYG world? I think it might be.

The other personal railcards are interesting - at the moment they obviously only give a reduction at off-peak times (other than on zonal caps). I would imagine that zonal caps would not apply other than for London 'Travelcard-type' journeys.

More things that aren't simple with this plan.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Do you genuinely think a blanket 0430-0930, 1600-1900 peak should be applied based on touch in time across the South East? (I'm assuming that the TOCs / DfT wont sign up to a 0430-0630 off-peak period across the whole area due to revenue loss.)

I'm not, to be fair, stating what I think should be done. I'm not entirely sure of the answer to that, I haven't considered it adequately.

However, doing the above is simple, yes. It's one set of rules applicable to everyone, clearly published, not in the slightest bit confusing and with no workarounds that don't simply constitute making two journeys rather than one, which even the most stupid person can work out if it makes sense for them or not depending on how much of a hurry they're in/budget they're on.
 

Bletchleyite

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More things that aren't simple with this plan.

Withdrawing all Railcards is simple.

It's not desirable, but it is simple.

Merseyrail effectively did it for off-peak travellers. There hasn't really been a furore.

As an alternative, the option could exist of adding the Railcard to your contactless account associated to your card number. It would be applied to any given journey where it made the fare cheaper than not applying it.
 

JonathanH

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I'm not, to be fair, stating what I think should be done. I'm not entirely sure of the answer to that, I haven't considered it adequately.

Fair enough - the attractions of Contactless PAYG for peak commuter travel are undoubtedly clear - even simpler than what we have been discussing here is just implementing Contactless PAYG at one level of fare for all weekday journeys - it only starts to get difficult at all if you start to concern yourself with how to fill the trains during the day between the peaks. Maybe we don't need to and the market will bear a simple fare structure all day and another at weekends.

Then, on top of that, perhaps in school holidays for families, autumn months for pensioners, special offer tickets more like what we have today could be offered for people to go on day trips on top of the basic PAYG structure.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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While those on here wouldn't like it, and it would kill businesses like Trainsplit.com (indeed, all ticketing would be done directly with the operator and all sales sites other than the operators' own would presumably cease to exist), it is absolutely one thing - simple.

I think it's a bit more nuanced. Certainly, if you had contactless then the process of paying would be simple. But that doesn't mean the fare structure would necessarily be simple.

In fact I can see at least one complication for passengers: A key advantage of buying a paper ticket is that you know upfront exactly what your journey will cost. With contactless, you don't (unless you have prior knowledge, or you go to the trouble of checking TfL's single fare finder). Within London, fares are generally cheap enough that most passengers probably don't worry too much about what journeys will cost if they don't already know. But if contactless is extended to include journeys with fares of £30 or £40, the most people will become very keen to know upfront what they'll be charged - and, as it stands, contactless doesn't provide any way to get that info that doesn't involve passengers making some extra upfront effort.
 

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And.... on the subject of simplicity, presumably, any roll-out of contactless would have to be accompanied by a proliferation of 'pink' card readers in any locations that lend themselves to alternative routes - which people will need to touch at during their journeys to show they've taken the cheapest route? You'll also need a list of official out-of-station interchanges set up and available for people to check - to cover places like Deepdene/Dorking.

And what will you do about the small number of people who don't have access to any debit card?

And what is the maximum fare going to be for people who don't touch out? Presumably it'll have to be higher than the largest possible fare that anyone can be charged. £100, say? How are people going to react to that when they thought they touched out but the reader didn't work properly?

What would the maximum time you're allowed to spend taking your journey going to be, before the system decides you've made two journeys without touching out/in between them. Presumably, at least something like 8 hours to cover people doing journeys like Dorchester South - Margate with an allowance for delays. So... long enough for someone to board a train at Plumstead, and spend the day riding around everywhere before alighting at Woolwich Arsenal and getting charged 50p or something? ;)

I foresee people who expect the system to be simple being very disappointed if it ever gets rolled out...
 
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DynamicSpirit

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On the plus side... Single journeys costing exactly half of what return journeys cost! Journeys that are not simple out-and-back returns finally becoming cost-effective! Yay!
 

MikeWh

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That is exactly why time restrictions are defined based on arrival time in London rather than departure time from the first station.
They're not all based on that. If I hold an off-peak day travelcard I can't use the 0929 from Bexley, but if I start at Sidcup at 0933 then I can.
TOCs / DfT wont sign up to a 0430-0630 off-peak period across the whole area due to revenue loss.
I'm not so sure. It helps to encourage earlier travel if close to the switch time, so smoothing out the loadings
What would the maximum time you're allowed to spend taking your journey going to be, before the system decides you've made two journeys without touching out/in between them. Presumably, at least something like 8 hours to cover people doing journeys like Dorchester South - Margate with an allowance for delays. So... long enough for someone to board a train at Plumstead, and spend the day riding around everywhere before alighting at Woolwich Arsenal and getting charged 50p or something?
Noting the smiley, you do realise that the existing system has variable MJTs. Plumstead to Woolwich Arsenal is one zone so you only get 70 minutes.
 

Joe Paxton

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I am suggesting that the further the simple approach is extended the more unfair it becomes unless you use the current 'NSE' approach of setting the validity times for off-peak fares in a fairly intelligent and structured manner - I'm aware that there are (or maybe were?) a handful of easements in the TfL system - e.g. for Chesham.
...

Not quite... you are charged a peak fare, but your journey counts towards the off-peak cap. This currently applies at Chesham, Amersham and Watford High Street from 0910, and Chalfont & Latimer, Bushey and Carpenders Park from 0920 - details here (scroll down).
 

DynamicSpirit

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Not quite... you are charged a peak fare, but your journey counts towards the off-peak cap. This currently applies at Chesham, Amersham and Watford High Street from 0910, and Chalfont & Latimer, Bushey and Carpenders Park from 0920 - details here (scroll down).

What was that again about Pay-as-you-go on contactless being simple? :D
 

Terry Tait

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If I can't split ticket and if Network Card is withdrawn I will just drive everywhere and so will a lot of people in the NSE area.
 
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