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Extinction Rebellion transport disruption from 17/04/2019

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Geezertronic

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Their ideals seem to want people to become poorer so they cannot afford things like a holiday once or twice a year, own car (or cars) to commute to work (where public transport is not an option), lose even more jobs by cutting down the manufacturing/maintenance etc.. of cars, planes, trains, buses etc... Effectively it seems to me that they want a "The Worlds End" ending taking us back centuries
 
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reddragon

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Their ideals seem to want people to become poorer so they cannot afford things like a holiday once or twice a year, own car (or cars) to commute to work (where public transport is not an option), lose even more jobs by cutting down the manufacturing/maintenance etc.. of cars, planes, trains, buses etc... Effectively it seems to me that they want a "The Worlds End" ending taking us back centuries

You are clearly not aware of what the consequences of climate change are!

The village of Fairbourne in Wales is to be formally decommissioned and abandoned along with its railway due to sea level rises.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/village-facing-extinction-face-rising-17066595


The city of Kingston Upon Hull is expected to be the first UK city lost to the sea

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/jan/03/hull-flood-plain-sea-level-yorkshire

‘Does Hull have a future?’ City built on a flood plain faces sea rise reckoning

London only has less than 100 years before the sea inundates its defenses in many areas

http://www.floodmap.net/

Flood Map : Water Level Elevation Map

What permanent effect do you think that will have on jobs, travel food and well-being?

If we act, we survive in a smaller world. If we don't, mass starvation, habitat loss and migration will collapse civilisation as we know it.
 
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Bantamzen

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Their ideals seem to want people to become poorer so they cannot afford things like a holiday once or twice a year, own car (or cars) to commute to work (where public transport is not an option), lose even more jobs by cutting down the manufacturing/maintenance etc.. of cars, planes, trains, buses etc... Effectively it seems to me that they want a "The Worlds End" ending taking us back centuries

I'm not sure that is a conscious aim to be fair, but a lot of these types of policies will generally trickle down to affect the poorest way more than the rich, whilst really not tackling any of the issues because the rich will continue regardless. Think more 'Hunger Games' than 'World's End'. What we should be striving for is matter making what we do more compatible & less damaging through technology and innovation, not through regression and taxation. Much of the technology is there or thereabouts, so let's push the drive to make our lives more efficient, not just poorer.

What is interesting that having raised the issue a couple of times, no-one has yet commented on the issue of food waste. In countries like ours we could reduce our food footprint by 30+% (apparently in the US this would be closer to 40%!). I'm genuinely interested to know why something so fundamental seems to attract little in the way of interest away from things like homelessness charities.
 

Geezertronic

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You are clearly not aware of what the consequences of climate change are!

I am more than aware thanks, although I hold a realist point of view whereas 2025 is not a realist point of view


If we act, we survive in a smaller world. If we don't, mass starvation, habitat loss and migration will collapse civilisation as we know it.

So where is the campaign for limiting the amount of children people can have? Where is the campaign to ban bonfire night in the UK and similar customs in other parts of the world? Where is the campaign to make non-meat alternatives more cost effective? We will have mass starvation if all meat produce is stopped before 2025 because there is no realistic alternative that can be properly implemented in time. As mentioned above, what about food wastage? I know of several shops around by me that will have trolley or two that is filled with expired or near expired food that can go to the nearest food bank or homeless centre.

There is little realism in the current protests which are aggressive and disruptive.
 

reddragon

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So where is the campaign for limiting the amount of children people can have? Where is the campaign to ban bonfire night in the UK and similar customs in other parts of the world? Where is the campaign to make non-meat alternatives more cost effective? We will have mass starvation if all meat produce is stopped before 2025 because there is no realistic alternative that can be properly implemented in time. As mentioned above, what about food wastage? I know of several shops around by me that will have trolley or two that is filled with expired or near expired food that can go to the nearest food bank or homeless centre.

There is little realism in the current protests which are aggressive and disruptive.

World birth rates are actually down and not the problem. The problems are that we are not dying as fast as we used to and whilst alive more & more of the world is consuming too much. The people of India rightly ask why they have to survive on 0.5 of a planet whilst the UK requires 5.5 planets for its lifestyle.

As much as I would hate not eating meat, banning meat would end starvation instantly as meat production is 10% as productive as the feed grown to feed them, hence if we ate the animal feed or similar such crops we would not only increase the land productivity by 10 fold but we would be healthier. Mass starvation therefore would not happen, just the reverse in fact!

Food wastage is our own choice by what we buy, consume and throw away, plus our buying choices. Eating out in takeaways is far worse for wastage than good home cooked choices.

None of these protests are aggressive and that fact has made policing them very difficult as police powers are limited by their law biding nature. Disruption of street in London is totally irrelevant as 99% of journeys are not by car in the city areas affected. I did get a bargain load of fresh fish this weekend though when the lorry on the way to Billingsgate was told not to come and my local fishmonger got an unexpected bargain delivery!
 

Geezertronic

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World birth rates are actually down and not the problem. The problems are that we are not dying as fast as we used to and whilst alive more & more of the world is consuming too much. The people of India rightly ask why they have to survive on 0.5 of a planet whilst the UK requires 5.5 planets for its lifestyle.

Do you have a link to that?


As much as I would hate not eating meat, banning meat would end starvation instantly as meat production is 10% as productive as the feed grown to feed them, hence if we ate the animal feed or similar such crops we would not only increase the land productivity by 10 fold but we would be healthier. Mass starvation therefore would not happen, just the reverse in fact!

Despite the fact that by 2025 it is unlikely that anyone will have the ability to ban meat and feed via other methods, so presumably starvation would go up due to the inability for a viable alternative to be provided to "feed the world"


Food wastage is our own choice by what we buy, consume and throw away, plus our buying choices. Eating out in takeaways is far worse for wastage than good home cooked choices.

So again that is another industry that would be decimated by any changes with large loss of jobs.


None of these protests are aggressive and that fact has made policing them very difficult as police powers are limited by their law biding nature. Disruption of street in London is totally irrelevant as 99% of journeys are not by car in the city areas affected. I did get a bargain load of fresh fish this weekend though when the lorry on the way to Billingsgate was told not to come and my local fishmonger got an unexpected bargain delivery!

There is nothing law abiding about these protests - I have seen first hand how they protest and it is aggressive and disruptive, and abusive on occasion which is something you don't see on TV. The fact that you got extra fish probably means that someone else didn't, so presumably your gain is someone elses loss
 

reddragon

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Loss of jobs!

We shouldn't have built those bridges over the Thames as the boatmen lost their jobs

We shouldn't have allowed motor vehicles as those stable boys, farriers and muck movers lost their jobs

We shouldn't have ended steam trains as all those Coal miners who loved working in coal mines could still be there.

Jobs, trades and professions come and they go in the wheel of life.
 

DarloRich

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it seems @reddragon and his ilk want us to become poorer, have less choice, fewer opportunities and have a less decent quality of life. Lecturing people about how evil they are isnt going to get them on side. What is the benefit? Don't say the planet because people don't care. What benefit is there to me, in my pocket, of being more green? I recycle everything I can, I don't have a car and i am conscious about waste of resources, waste of electricity etc.

That said if i want to go on holiday at some point in the future to Barbados or Bali I will. I will be quite honest: I am not doing without heating or hot water in my house to appease some dirty, greeny, student hippies who need a wash and should get a job and i am not spending a fortune to fit a greeny approved boiler system to my house because the boiler i have now does the job.

Why? Because until those same greeny hippes get out to China or India and sort out their emissions they are pi$$ing in the wind.

PS and if i lose my job because of those hippies I am hardly going to be on their side am I?
 
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Bantamzen

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As much as I would hate not eating meat, banning meat would end starvation instantly as meat production is 10% as productive as the feed grown to feed them, hence if we ate the animal feed or similar such crops we would not only increase the land productivity by 10 fold but we would be healthier. Mass starvation therefore would not happen, just the reverse in fact!

"End starvation instantly"?? How exactly would you instantly redistribute this food to the world's starving? Whilst the idea has the right motivation, there are no proposals on how to implement it. For example, if the western world stopped eating meat, and the animal feed no longer used to feed cattle, who exactly is buying this stuff? Should the farmers continue to grow the stuff for no return, would we be expected to pay for it, how exactly are you going to get soya from Brazil to central Africa or maybe Syria?

Its all very well having these lovely ideas, but the reality is if that meat production stopped, so would the soya or whatever other crops. Then you'd have land left unmanaged, which could easily have it's soil eroded, turn into desert & make the problem even worse again over time. Rainforests don't just spring up over night, the land cleared to make for things like soya production will take a very long time to recover, and then only if properly managed. Idealism is one thing, but it has to be able to work in reality too. A move to plant only diets worldwide will take decades, maybe even centuries. And it still wouldn't stop people starving to death.

Food wastage is our own choice by what we buy, consume and throw away, plus our buying choices. Eating out in takeaways is far worse for wastage than good home cooked choices.

Eh? So is eating meat! You dismiss something away that can both make a difference to the environment & people's economies, but aren't interested? I'm starting to wonder about your motives here. There is the often used phrase "virtue signalling", meant to describe the actions of people wanting to be seen to be on the latest popular topic of outrage, without necessarily actually wanting to do a whole lot.

I'll repeat the sentiment that one of the biggest problems with some environmental lobbies is that they are wanting "quick wins" to gain popular support, without ever actually considering how to implement their ideas. So when things don't happen, in part because of politics but also in part because the solutions turn out to be way more complex than touted, the lobbyists can shout a lot about nothing happening & not actually be blamed for not thinking things through.

So I'll also repeat that you'll change little on the streets outside Westminster, but a hell of a lot more inside. Stop just waving flags and getting angry, give us a viable alternative to the current political party selections, with properly thought through & costed policies that involve revolutionising how we generate, store and use energy (because we will continue to use it), how we travel (because we will continue to travel), and how we produce our foods going forward (because we will continue to eat). That's my challenge to you and your fellow lobbyists. If time really is running out, then its time to actually effect real change.
 

reddragon

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it seems @reddragon and his ilk want us to become poorer, have less choice, fewer opportunities and have a less decent quality of life. Lecturing people about how evil they are isnt going to get them on side. What is the benefit? Don't say the planet because people don't care. What benefit is there to me, in my pocket, of being more green? I recycle everything I can, I don't have a car and i am conscious about waste of resources, waste of electricity etc.

That said if i want to go on holiday at some point in the future to Barbados or Bali I will. I will be quite honest: I am not doing without heating or hot water in my house to appease some dirty, greeny, student hippies who need a wash and should get a job and i am not spending a fortune to fit a greeny approved boiler system to my house because the boiler i have now does the job.

Why? Because until those same greeny hippes get out to China or India and sort out their emissions they are pi$$ing in the wind.

PS and if i lose my job because of those hippies I am hardly going to be on their side am I?

DarloRich - having checked back on my posts, I have never said or implied that people are evil. We have all done what we thought was the best thing to do, like buying diesels. We cannot alone make changes and certainly not ones that would be hugely beneficial. We need leadership from Government under democracy to achieve this.

I have installed renewable heating. It cost less than what I had. I bought an EV. It is cheaper to own than what I had. I installed solar panels and wow don't they pay back quickly! Poorer? How exactly if done right?

Good luck on going to Bali in 50 years, it won't be there!!

India / China - again!! Remember, we exported our emissions there when we closed down manufacturing and sent it there so we can have cheap TVs, mobiles et al.

I never knew that all scientists, doctors, nursing mothers and demonstrators could only be hippies :)
 

reddragon

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I'll repeat the sentiment that one of the biggest problems with some environmental lobbies is that they are wanting "quick wins" to gain popular support, without ever actually considering how to implement their ideas. So when things don't happen, in part because of politics but also in part because the solutions turn out to be way more complex than touted, the lobbyists can shout a lot about nothing happening & not actually be blamed for not thinking things through.

So I'll also repeat that you'll change little on the streets outside Westminster, but a hell of a lot more inside. Stop just waving flags and getting angry, give us a viable alternative to the current political party selections, with properly thought through & costed policies that involve revolutionising how we generate, store and use energy (because we will continue to use it), how we travel (because we will continue to travel), and how we produce our foods going forward (because we will continue to eat). That's my challenge to you and your fellow lobbyists. If time really is running out, then its time to actually effect real change.

There are so many quick wins to be had that there are just too many to choose from and that we will all benefit from quickly.

You'll find that all that flag waving & getting a bit miffed is something to do with a government of muppets with their heads up their own ***es.

The new energy solutions are designed and costed. We just need government to stop backing oil with £billions
Travels solutions are mostly there, we just need vehicle manufacturers to lift the anchor and get delivering.
Food emissions can be halved without us changing habits, the rest will require change.
The big challenge is heating homes as most homes are not easy to retrofit, but at least new homes could be fitted from new (but they are not).

It is not down to me or lobbyists to come up with the solutions. This is down to Scientists & Engineers presenting solutions to the Government who use democracy to deliver these solutions in a fair way.
 

Bantamzen

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There are so many quick wins to be had that there are just too many to choose from and that we will all benefit from quickly.

Like not wasting a third of the food we buy as consumers..... (My wife and I have already achieved this)

You'll find that all that flag waving & getting a bit miffed is something to do with a government of muppets with their heads up their own ***es.

You needed these protests to tell us this? I hate to break it to you but we knew that already. But you are missing the point, if XR is so well funded, why the hell aren't they forming a political party to actually challenge the muppets instead of busing people in to wave flags?? With a good, and thought through policy set I for one would vote for such a party. And so would a lot of people, enough in fact that a new, greener thinking party might just break through and make the rest of the House realise they need to get up to speed. The government don't give a stuff about XR, they are still trying to appease Brextieers, but if a new party stepped up, won a bunch of seats and started to make a difference in the balance of power....

Or XR could remain a shouty, wavey party, people will get bored (and cold when winter kicks in), & the momentum will be lost, again (XR are far from the first wave of environmental lobbyists).

The new energy solutions are designed and costed. We just need government to stop backing oil with £billions
Travels solutions are mostly there, we just need vehicle manufacturers to lift the anchor and get delivering.
Food emissions can be halved without us changing habits, the rest will require change.
The big challenge is heating homes as most homes are not easy to retrofit, but at least new homes could be fitted from new (but they are not).

Please refer to my comment directly above.

It is not down to me or lobbyists to come up with the solutions. This is down to Scientists & Engineers presenting solutions to the Government who use democracy to deliver these solutions in a fair way.

Again, please refer to my comment above.
 

reddragon

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Like not wasting a third of the food we buy as consumers..... (My wife and I have already achieved this)



You needed these protests to tell us this? I hate to break it to you but we knew that already. But you are missing the point, if XR is so well funded, why the hell aren't they forming a political party to actually challenge the muppets instead of busing people in to wave flags?? With a good, and thought through policy set I for one would vote for such a party. And so would a lot of people, enough in fact that a new, greener thinking party might just break through and make the rest of the House realise they need to get up to speed. The government don't give a stuff about XR, they are still trying to appease Brextieers, but if a new party stepped up, won a bunch of seats and started to make a difference in the balance of power....

Or XR could remain a shouty, wavey party, people will get bored (and cold when winter kicks in), & the momentum will be lost, again (XR are far from the first wave of environmental lobbyists).

I actually agree with you.
 

DarloRich

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DarloRich - having checked back on my posts, I have never said or implied that people are evil. We have all done what we thought was the best thing to do, like buying diesels. We cannot alone make changes and certainly not ones that would be hugely beneficial. We need leadership from Government under democracy to achieve this.

The entire tone is that if you don't immediately join in with our silly student, hippy behaviour you are determined to destroy the earth and are therefore evil scum. It isnt the best method of engaging with the general public!

The whole thing is also stridently middle class and achingly right on

I have installed renewable heating. It cost less than what I had. I bought an EV. It is cheaper to own than what I had. I installed solar panels and wow don't they pay back quickly! Poorer? How exactly if done right?

I fitted a new boiler 2 years ago. It was the highest greeny rated one I could find. If you want me to replace it you better pay me to do so because I wont other wise.

Good luck on going to Bali in 50 years, it won't be there!!

I best set off now then. Don't want to miss it because you have banned flying. Imagine going by boat. All that bunker oil burnt up

India / China - again!! Remember, we exported our emissions there when we closed down manufacturing and sent it there so we can have cheap TVs, mobiles et al.

Yes. China and India AGAIN. Why? Because you haven't an answer or even an acknowledgement that for all of your good intentions IF you don't tackle that issue you are simply pi$$ing in the wind ( and you could add the USA to that list) You try to suggest ( quite naively) that if China stopped manufacturing then emissions would be sorted. That is just hogwash. How many cars are there in China? How many power stations? Do you think that is going to stop? In 2019, China's population stands at 1.417 billion. that is a lot of people who need heat and light and mobility. Perhaps they could go back to living in the dark.

PS There you go. Blaming people for daring to chose a cheap TV. I suspect you would prefer it is people didn't have a TV. BTW I hope you don't have anything in your house made more than 2 streets away.

I never knew that all scientists, doctors, nursing mothers and demonstrators could only be hippies :)

Right. Of course they are. Who is really leading these protests? Who are the "useful idiots" being used to further an agenda?
 

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it seems @reddragon and his ilk want us to become poorer, have less choice, fewer opportunities and have a less decent quality of life.

Not only this, but the climate movement essentially involves middle-class white people in modern democracies telling people in developing nations they can't aspire to the standard of living we have been enjoying for a hundred years.

There is no plan on how to enforce XR's pseudo-anarchist climate change hysteria against BRICS economies.

Oh, and the "don't have children" mantra I see crop up from time to time on Twitter is mad - and almost always made by men, too.
 

Gooner18

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I agree that something has to be done , but ER have lost all my respect and support by the way they are behaving
 

AndrewE

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Not only this, but the climate movement essentially involves middle-class white people in modern democracies telling people in developing nations they can't aspire to the standard of living we have been enjoying for a hundred years.
There is no plan on how to enforce XR's pseudo-anarchist climate change hysteria against BRICS economies.
Oh, and the "don't have children" mantra I see crop up from time to time on Twitter is mad - and almost always made by men, too.
Not true at all. Quite a few countries - populated mostly by brown people - are desperate for their countries to stop being progressively submerged.
Yes, lots of people around the world would like to have our standard of living, but a lot of people here in the first world (or whatever the currently acceptable term is) recognise that our current rate of consumption (of almost everything) is unsustainable and the sheer number of us worldwide has to be a factor too.
 

DarloRich

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Not only this, but the climate movement essentially involves middle-class white people in modern democracies telling people in developing nations they can't aspire to the standard of living we have been enjoying for a hundred years.

There is no plan on how to enforce XR's pseudo-anarchist climate change hysteria against BRICS economies.

Oh, and the "don't have children" mantra I see crop up from time to time on Twitter is mad - and almost always made by men, too.

Agreed. It massively devalues the essential point being made

Not true at all. Quite a few countries - populated mostly by brown people - are desperate for their countries to stop being progressively submerged.
Yes, lots of people around the world would like to have our standard of living, but a lot of people here in the first world (or whatever the currently acceptable term is) recognise that our current rate of consumption (of almost everything) is unsustainable and the sheer number of us worldwide has to be a factor too.

What on earth does "progressively submerged" mean?
 

yorkie

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I agree that something has to be done , but ER have lost all my respect and support by the way they are behaving
Agreed. The extremists on both sides are not helping. Also I would never be able to bring myself to support a group that is supported by anarchists and people who disrupt public transport. The far left are just as bad as the far right in my view.
 

AndrewE

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What on earth does "progressively submerged" mean?
It means that each year a bit more of an island disappears, https://www.theguardian.com/global-...lu-sinking-islands-rising-seas-climate-change
or a bit more of a delta erodes or is swamped by salt water.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/201...t-decide-between-keeping-water-out-or-letting says

As sea levels rise, Bangladeshi islanders must decide between keeping the water out—or letting it in
By Warren CornwallMar. 1, 2018 , 2:00 PM


Bangladesh, a vast river delta that barely rises above the sea at the best of times, is buffeted by natural forces including flooding rivers and cyclones blowing in from the bay. Over decades, the country has developed defenses: warning systems, storm shelters, salt-resistant crops, and 139 polders near the coast—a 5700-kilometer network of walls to protect farmland from inundation. But humanmade infrastructure is not infallible and can cause problems of its own. That's starkly apparent across the country's polders, which have disrupted a fragile standoff between water and land and are now straining to hold back the water. As climate change compounds that threat with rising seas and stronger storms, Bangladeshis who have spent years building barricades are considering what was once unthinkable: letting the water in. It's resilience by bending, not resisting. And it's tougher to do than it sounds.

Other countries are trying similar approaches. Vietnam recently adopted plans to allow more flooding in the upper reaches of the Mekong delta. The Netherlands, renowned for building some of the world's most sophisticated sea walls, is adapting suburbs for controlled river flooding. On the other end of the spectrum sits Indonesia, which is planning a $40 billion, 40-kilometer-long sea wall to shield its capital city, Jakarta, from the Java Sea.
 

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Not true at all. Quite a few countries - populated mostly by brown people - are desperate for their countries to stop being progressively submerged.
Yes, lots of people around the world would like to have our standard of living, but a lot of people here in the first world (or whatever the currently acceptable term is) recognise that our current rate of consumption (of almost everything) is unsustainable and the sheer number of us worldwide has to be a factor too.

Which bit wasn’t true? I don’t see any correction in your post.
 

nlogax

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Agreed. The extremists on both sides are not helping. Also I would never be able to bring myself to support a group that is supported by anarchists and people who disrupt public transport. The far left are just as bad as the far right in my view.

Now they've been banned from protesting across the whole of London, hopefully things should become a little easier for some. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50051279
Extinction Rebellion activists say they have left London's Trafalgar Square after police issued a ban on the group's climate change protests.

In a statement issued on Monday evening, the Metropolitan Police said demonstrators protesting in the capital after 21:00 BST could be arrested.

Extinction Rebellion said it would "let Trafalgar Square go" but added that the "International Rebellion continues".
 
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Meerkat

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Bit ironic that some of these vulnerable island places are basing their economies on long distance tourism....
 

AndrewE

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Not only this, but the climate movement essentially involves middle-class white people in modern democracies telling people in developing nations they can't aspire to the standard of living we have been enjoying for a hundred years.
Not true at all. Quite a few countries - populated mostly by brown people - are desperate for their countries to stop being progressively submerged.
Which bit wasn’t true? I don’t see any correction in your post.
If you don't see my response as a correction to the bit of yours that I have highlighted then we are reading different books, let alone not being on the same page. Reports of UN and other climate conferences now usually have pleas from countries in the developing world to reverse global warming and protect them from the effects of sea-level rise. e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environ...etermine-humanitys-destiny-says-angela-merkel:
President Ali Bongo Ondimba of Gabon, representing African nations, said the need for faster action was urgent: “The fire is right under our feet. That is why I am expressing the extreme concern of Africa in light of the increase of disasters related to climate change. Africa suffers the loss and damage on a daily basis.”

“It is now time for the developed countries to live up to their responsibilities,” said Baron Waqa, president of Nauru and representing small island states.
Bit ironic that some of these vulnerable island places are basing their economies on long distance tourism....
Agreed.
 
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Xenophon PCDGS

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Now they've been banned from protesting across the whole of London, hopefully things should become a little easier for some. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50051279

No-one should be surprised by the imposition of the protest ban in the capital city. Normality is one of the advantages of allowing freedom for all, not just a group of activists.
 

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If you don't see my response as a correction to the bit of yours that I have highlighted then we are reading different books, let alone not being on the same page. Reports of UN and other climate conferences now usually have pleas from countries in the developing world to reverse global warming and protect them from the effects of sea-level rise. e.g.

And what are those countries doing to help the issue? Who is leading the climate movement? Where is most climate science studied?

It's naive to think there will be no repercussions from what will be seen as an imposition by western democracies on developing countries to hamper their own economic growth. In many of these countries education is very poor; it's not the politicians we need to worry about.
 

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29,182
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Fenny Stratford
Agreed. The extremists on both sides are not helping. Also I would never be able to bring myself to support a group that is supported by anarchists and people who disrupt public transport. The far left are just as bad as the far right in my view.

Agreed - I don't think anyone disagrees with the sentiment but the activities of these extinction rebellion people undermine the important message that needs to be made.
 

Gooner18

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Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
539
Agreed. The extremists on both sides are not helping. Also I would never be able to bring myself to support a group that is supported by anarchists and people who disrupt public transport. The far left are just as bad as the far right in my view.


100% ER should be ashamed , 1500 odd arrests is disgusting
 

Gooner18

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Joined
24 Oct 2018
Messages
539
I wonder if the supporters of Extinction Rebellion even care about the number of police who have been taken off other duties in the capital city in order to attend their process of deliberate disruption?
Of course they won’t , police are always the easy target.
 
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