Advice sought - stopped at ticket barrier and issued unpaid fare notice

sheff1 · 14 Oct 2019

According to the Guidance here RailUK Fares & Ticketing Guide - Section 10 - Disputes, use of an Unpaid Fares Notice signifies a civil debt, rather than a criminal offence.
"10.2 Unpaid Fare Notices (UPFNs)
These are used where there is no intent to avoid payment of the fare and the matter is therefore a civil debt (the passenger simply owes the railway money)."

Are the posters who are now referring to a criminal offence saying that the guidance is incorrect ?

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Bletchleyite · 14 Oct 2019

If the UFN goes unpaid, there can then be shown to be intent to avoid payment of the fare (because you've been asked to pay it and you haven't). Then they can prosecute.

furlong · 14 Oct 2019

The relevant clause states:

(3)If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof;

I.e. intent to avoid payment would need to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, so if prosecuted (which you say is not something they have suggested) it would be for a court to assess the "excuse" presented against that criterion.

father_jack · 15 Oct 2019

Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey. Some desperado guards still charge a new ticket (commission !) but even that is still refunded in full.

So unless the passenger tells the RPI/guard they don't actually own one in which case if the journey hasn't started the appropriate fare for the time of travel should be charged and yes, the discounted ticket is unused so is refundable with an admin fee charged.

Islineclear3_1 · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey. Some desperado guards still charge a new ticket (commission !) but even that is still refunded in full.

So unless the passenger tells the RPI/guard they don't actually own one in which case if the journey hasn't started the appropriate fare for the time of travel should be charged and yes, the discounted ticket is unused so is refundable with an admin fee charged.

But the OP didn't possess a railcard. When he purchased the ticket on his friend's phone, he didn't realise the railcard box was ticked

najaB · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey.

If the passenger asks for an excess, yes. However the OP's son presented a discounted ticket as if he was entitled to the discount. Different situation.

Bletchleyite · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey.

It's not an "entitled" excess, just one that some TOCs will agree to do if you ask nicely.

What this looks like (and probably is, to be honest) is someone opportunistically trying to get away with a discounted ticket on someone else's railcard, and not particularly subtly by the look of it either. Now, it might be that the OP can get the cost down by cleverly quoting the rules, and that's all very well, but in reality it seems the OP's son is fairly lucky not to be in court on a RoRA charge with a criminal record.

cuccir · 15 Oct 2019

For what it's worth, there are many of us I think on these forums who are uncomfortable with the situation whereby unintentional fare evasion such as this is potentially enough to result in criminal prosecution. We think that there should be different mechanisms which allow for mistakes to be punished more lightly. So I sympathise with the OP's exasperation, BUT, I fully agree with those who say that there is enough here to attempt prosecution.

Bletchleyite · 15 Oct 2019

robert7111a said:
But the OP didn't possess a railcard. When he purchased the ticket on his friend's phone, he didn't realise the railcard box was ticked

...is what he told his father who he's asking to help him.

Knowing teenagers, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if he did realise and is now telling fibs about it.

But that's by the by - I still reckon that there's enough to prosecute if the UFN is not paid.

Brissle Girl · 15 Oct 2019

We don’t know whether it was intentional, and neither did the person who stopped him or those following it up. And that’s precisely the difficulty when people say they are uncomfortable with people making genuine mistakes being prosecuted, how do you tell?

I can well believe that if a box is checked automatically they forgot to uncheck it - happens to a lot of us when filling in online forms, and I can equally well believe that he was chancing it. I’m not sure it influences our advice, does it?

Back to the advice we can offer, there seems to be an agreement that the lad did commit an offence even though he hadn’t travelled, and so the only debate is whether the “penalty” given was correct. I suspect that rather than attempt to enter a dialogue with GWR it may be better to put it down to experience and pay up, to avoid matters escalating by non-payment.

Bletchleyite · 15 Oct 2019

Brissle Girl said:
I can well believe that if a box is checked automatically they forgot to uncheck it - happens to a lot of us when filling in online forms, and I can equally well believe that he was chancing it. I’m not sure it influences our advice, does it?

My personal (fairly extensive due to being in Scouting) experience of teenagers might suggest something like it having been left ticked accidentally, him noticing, but him not having enough money to correct the error by buying another and refunding the erroneous ticket minus £10 later (or probably not even knowing a walk-up is refundable - many people don't), and so thinking "oh, it'll probably be OK" and proceeding, possibly also influenced by "but the train's coming mate, it'll be fine, hurry up" or somesuch. Which might be what the TOC prosecutions department think it was, hence why they've just billed an Anytime Single to make a point without the legal stuff.

The "passback" (having both tickets on the same phone) is probably what raised heckles - the inspector quite possibly thought they were trying to use the same ticket twice. Had he gone to the TVM and bought it, there's a fairly good chance he might actually have got away with it, not that that is the right thing to do as it obviously isn't.

Back to the advice we can offer, there seems to be an agreement that the lad did commit an offence even though he hadn’t travelled, and so the only debate is whether the “penalty” given was correct. I suspect that rather than attempt to enter a dialogue with GWR it may be better to put it down to experience and pay up, to avoid matters escalating by non-payment.

I think that may well be the best course of action.

jumble · 15 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
I wonder if the "passback" (not actually a passback in that sense, I assume, i.e. the phone had two tickets on it) is what got his "spidey senses" tingling?

I can see no reason why you would be held liable but if if remains unpaid and is not withdrawn by the TOC then he could be prosecuted. I wonder if the RPI wrote the UFN with the view that it would be a prosecution, but then the TOC prosecutions department decided otherwise?

I don't understand this
Do TOCs make a habit of issuing a UFN which as I understand gives permission to travel but still prosecute for the previous offence even if one pays the UFN which in this case demands more cash than if the OP's son was directed to the ticket office to buy an off peak ?
Seems very unreasonable if they do.

ainsworth74 · 15 Oct 2019

jumble said:
Do TOCs make a habit of issuing a UFN which as I understand gives permission to travel but still prosecute for the previous offence even if one pays the UFN which in this case demands more cash than if the OP's son was directed to the ticket office to buy an off peak ?
Seems very unreasonable if they do.

No if you pay the UFN the matter is disposed of and no further action taken. If you do not pay the UFN then it can be withdrawn and the TOC can pursue a prosecution instead. Think of a UFN as broadly being the same as an invoice. If you send an invoice to someone for something you've done or a service you've provided and they don't pay what do you do? Take them to court! But if they pay the invoice then the debt is settled and no further action can be taken.

island · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey.

It isn’t. Some staff will put it through, but the correct process is to sell a new ticket and the old one is to be submitted for a refund.

221129 · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey. Some desperado guards still charge a new ticket (commission !) but even that is still refunded in full.
.

You are not entitled to an excess. The correct procedure is a new ticket valid for immediate travel.

sheff1 · 15 Oct 2019

221129 said:
You are not entitled to an excess. The correct procedure is a new ticket valid for immediate travel.

But which new ticket ? In this case any of a Super Off Peak, Off Peak or Anytime single would be valid for immediate travel. For other journeys, further options might be available.

30907 · 15 Oct 2019

sheff1 said:
But which new ticket ? In this case any of a Super Off Peak, Off Peak or Anytime single would be valid for immediate travel. For other journeys, further options might be available.

If it is done at the station, then the relevant walkup fare, so the Super OP.

father_jack · 15 Oct 2019

Bletchleyite said:
It's not an "entitled" excess, just one that some TOCs will agree to do if you ask nicely.
.

It is an entitlement of sorts across the business.
https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/505/

What happens if I don't have my Railcard with me and I have to buy a new ticket or pay a Penalty Fare?
If you are travelling by train on a ticket with a Railcard discount, you must travel with your valid Railcard. If you forget your Railcard you will either be required to buy a new ticket or you may on certain services be liable for a Penalty Fare. However, a train company will normally allow you to claim back this extra expense on the first occasion in each year where this happens.

Each train company will have their own process for doing this. You will need to provide proof of your Railcard and either the original and additional tickets that you have purchased, or if you have not yet paid, details of the notice to pay or notice of Penalty Fare. Where you have already paid for additional tickets you should contact the relevant train company’s customer services department; in the case of a notice to pay of notice of Penalty Fare, you should follow the instructions included on how to challenge or appeal the charge.

An excess means the passenger is out of pocket for a lower amount while awaiting their refund.

father_jack · 15 Oct 2019

island said:
It isn’t. Some staff will put it through, but the correct process is to sell a new ticket and the old one is to be submitted for a refund.

Correct.

father_jack · 15 Oct 2019

221129 said:
You are not entitled to an excess. The correct procedure is a new ticket valid for immediate travel.

The retail instruction from the TOC I work for is an excess..... They do run Castle Cary staiton mind you :'(

maniacmartin · 15 Oct 2019

I think issuing the UFN for the full Anytime ticket is a bit cheeky of GWR, given that the encounter happened at the origin station where, had Alex been notified of the irregularity, he could presumably purchased the Super Off Peak ticket from a ticket machine or ticket office counter. From the reference to "National Rail", it sounds like they were referring to section 9.2.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel, however its pretty clear to me that this only applies if you actually managed to board the train:

NRCoT said:
9.2.2. To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on

Regarding the possibility of criminal prosecution, only the more serious Regulation of Railways Act mentions attempting to travel without a valid ticket:

Regulation of Railways Act said:
If any person—
(a)Travels or attempts to travel on a railway without having previously paid his fare, and with intent to avoid payment thereof

however to achieve a conviction here, GWR would have to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt.

The less serious Railway Byelaws only make it a crime to actually board a train without a valid ticket (section 18), unless the station is a Compulsory Ticket Area (section 17), which I doubt Castle Cary is, as they are usually only present at stations in that are in Penalty Fare areas, which tend to be commuter lines with frequent stops and/or Driver-Only Operated trains.

As such, I would be minded to send a cheque for £43.30, which is the cost of the walk-up Super Off-Peak ticket, however you may wish to just pay the sum they are demanding, to avoid stress and hassle. Separately, you can claim a refund of the unused original ticket from whichever company runs the app, minus a £10 admin fee, under section 29 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel

Brissle Girl · 15 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
It is an entitlement of sorts across the business.
https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/505/

An excess means the passenger is out of pocket for a lower amount while awaiting their refund.

That's only the case if you have a railcard and have forgotten it, and is a reasonable solution where someone has made such a mistake. You are required to prove that you do have a railcard to get the refund.

However, in this instance the OP's son did not possess one, so this doesn't apply. It would not be expected that someone could accidentally purchase a discounted ticket when they don't have one (although that could happen if one has expired - although even that wasn't the case here).

najaB · 15 Oct 2019

maniacmartin said:
...GWR would have to prove intent beyond reasonable doubt...

The two tickets being on the same phone actually makes it easier to make that case as it's more likely than with paper tickets that a reasonable person would question why the two tickets were the same price despite only one of the passengers having a Railcard.

Bletchleyite · 16 Oct 2019

Brissle Girl said:
although that could happen if one has expired

Years ago I erroneously travelled on an expired YP for about a week before it was noticed (and renewed on the spot).

LowLevel · 16 Oct 2019

father_jack said:
Hang on. A (railcard) discounted ticket is still excessable to public fare if the railcard is not present at any time in the journey. Some desperado guards still charge a new ticket (commission !) but even that is still refunded in full.

So unless the passenger tells the RPI/guard they don't actually own one in which case if the journey hasn't started the appropriate fare for the time of travel should be charged and yes, the discounted ticket is unused so is refundable with an admin fee charged.

We have no choice in the matter. Worldline MTS (Envoy) won't allow you to excess away a railcard discount. Avantix was great for doing things like that. Envoy is far more intelligent when it comes to stopping you from getting around things.

Advice sought - stopped at ticket barrier and issued unpaid fare notice

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